Here's my suggestion, but keep in mid it's coming from a newbie!
This assumes you've got a fairly small room, not more than 15x20 or so.
Speakers: JM Lab Micro Utopia
CDP: Audio Aero Capitole (with preamp section)
Amps: Electrocompaniet AW220 monoblocks.
You're lloking at about $12,000 or so used. |
Audio Note:
Soro SE Integrated New $4000
AN E/Spe Speakers New $5000
CD3.1x CD player About $2000 used
That leaves at least $9000 for cables and upgrades, more if you buy the Soro & speakers used. If you do go used there, you can upgrade to CDT Two & a better DAC, or higher level speakers. |
$20k is a magic number since it *CAN* be attainable for a lot of folks. $308/4weeks is $4k/yr. That's a major component purchase each year right there! In four or five years you'll have your $20k (or thereabouts) system.
As to milkman's observation of the $20k barrier - I think to a lot of folks the $20k barrier is pretty psychological. Much in the same way a $1k or $2k would seem to a non-audiophile. One $20k seems to buy a whole lot of performance without loosing everything completely to diminishing returns. And two it's a nice round number. But good observation milkman. But normally I would guess the ranges to be $10k and $40k. That's what I think I see. |
A good start would be the following:
SET Amp -- Wavelength Audio
New Audio Frontiers Speakers -- Ref. 2 or 3 ($4 - 4.5K approx.)
REL Sub
My gear consists of Soundlab M1 speakers, CAT Jl-1 monoblocks, Wadia 861 CDP, Solid Tech Rack of Silence, custom made cables.
My purpose in mentioning my equipment, is to suggest my leanings, and advise if I were interested in moving from large, power hungry, full-range electrostatic speakers, the above components would be 1st. on my short list.
While I'm sure not many have heard New Audio Frontier Speakers, I can assure you of their sonic attributes. Theyre very fast/transparent, one of the best box speakers that I've heard, and quite easily driven by SET's.
My local audio dealer here in Indianapolis, is the importer for these speakers, and the seller of all the gear I own including the 2-chanel gear already mentioned, and my (7) HT speakers. Although I said local dealer, he was for several years; however, Jim recently moved to CAL., and it's an understatement to state that I will miss hanging out at his store, and obtaining his very cogent, objective advice.
Jim's opinions were highly valued, and I could implicitly trust his advice. Something, I'm sure you would agree is difficult to find, in this hobby.
With that said, take a peek at Jim's A-Gon posting, give him a call, and chat about your needs. He can be found at: http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/search2.pl?seller&zzSynersound -- or simply search for: New Audio Frontiers.
No, I'm not related to Jim, in business with him, or in a position to monetarily gain from this plug. I'm just simply a very satisfied customer and am grateful for Jim's advice, and will miss his store, and the fellow hobbyists I had the pleasure of meeting there. |
Joel:
Don't know if it works with analog sources, but research Z-Systems digital preamps (specifically the one, or ones which function as an equalizer within the digital domain).
A'Gon member danvetc uses one in his office system (small room) and from what he's told me it does wonders making up for acoustic shortcomings.
The preamp/equalizer he uses has a review @ TNT Audio.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/rdp1e.html
Assuming that you do not want to greatly alter the apperance of the room (room treatments) using some type of sound shaping device would seem to be a reasonable method of achieving your goal (good/great sound) in a small listening room. |
$20,000 huh? For some reason, that's a magic number. A lot of people are willing to spend $20,000 on audio, but not more... kinda interesting...
Anyway, what I would do...
BAT VK-3iX w/ remote and phono card-- $3500
BAT VK-220 amp-- $2500
Vandersteen 3A Signature-- $3500
Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofers-- $2600
Vandie crossover-- $800
That's $11,300, leaving you over $7,000 for sources, cables, and accessories. Should be plenty. And buying the speakers used would save you even more...
The Vandie 3A's may be a little bit big for your room, though... in which case I'd simply jump down to the 2CE sigs. But I'd try the 3A Sig's first in hopes that they would work. |
I've thought about your criteria. Everything in the following list would be purchased used, except for the PS Audio 300:
- Audio Research CD3 (+/- $3,000) or Accuphase DP-75v (+/$4,500)
- Magnum Dynalab 102 tuner (+/-$1,500)
- CAT SL-1 Mk. III linestage preamp (+/- $2,500)
- VAC Renaissance 70/70 Mk III tube amp (+/- $5,500)
- Dynaudio Special 25 speakers (+/- $3,000, including stands)
- Kimber Select 3035 speaker cables (+/- $1,750 for 10' runs)
- Kimber Select 1021 interconnects (+/- $1,500 for two 1 meter pairs and one 2 meter pair for pre-to-amp run)
- OPTIONAL: Belden 83802 electric wire from 20 amp breaker to 20 amp outlet for amp (+/- $125).
- OPTIONAL: One PS Audio "20-amp High-Current Ultimate Outlet" for amp, one "15-amp High Current Ultimate Outlet" for power regenerator (+/- $600)
- OPTIONAL: PS Audio 300 power regenerator for pre, CD and tuner ($1,150 w/ 10% dealer discount)
Leave EVERYTHING powered up 24/7 except for the amp (yes, leave CAT preamp on 24/7, with volume turned all the way down and mute engaged when not in use).
Trust me :) |
Thank you all for your great and helpful responses. Dekay, my listening room is a home office where I spend a fair amount of time. Wish I could make it larger, but not in the cards right now.
I will start researching some of the recommendations with an emphasis on good integrated tube amps.
Joel |
I'd spend the $20K on renting/purchasing a decent listening room.
Are you serious? |
For musical, refined and smooth - you are probably looking at tubes (YES!!). Since your room is small, you can look at some lower powered more refined amplification.
Without knowing what gear you have previously owned or auditioned and loved, this is going to be tougher. Can you give us a hint what speakers in particular have done it for you? I am inclined to mention Kharma, Merlin, and Audio Note off hand. Each offers something that could fit your description with appropriate other components.
No matter what (given what you've said so far), I am going to recommend an Audio Note DAC - in my opinion, they are oh-so-musical, can be tailored by changing the 6dj8 equivalents, and are a good deal for the price (one.1x 2.1x or 1.1x) when bought used.
I will await further feedback before I would suggest particular amps, a cable match, and some tweaks (particularly room treatments which will be essential), though...
Hey - this is a fun question!
Hope that helps so far and looking forward to part 2.
Jacob |
I second the vote for an LS35a speaker/tube system. Or a great amplifier though solid state was the Audio Research D 52 B I saw one on Audiogon for under $500. This makes a very musical system. You could pick up a ARC SP-6B or SP-8 and have a very musical system. When I sold the stuff this was a heck of a system that you could listen to for hours. One could add a SACD player or turntable to this system and come in lots less than what your budget is probably.
Good listening,
Steve |
"Joel":
You could take my system (which retails for well under $10K) and change the speakers from the outstanding (but admittedly forward sounding) KEF Reference 102 Speaker System and get some outstanding refined small speakers like the ProAc Tablette 2000, Spendor S3/5 or Totem Model 1, add a sub like an REL Strata II or Strata III, and then go for a more expensive and more refined digital source like a used Sony SCD-777ES (this SACD player WILL DEFINITELY stretch my system's envelope to its upmost maximum capability). Then I would spend the rest on very nice vinyl setup (a Clearaudio Champion or VPI Aries Scout with a smooth sounding cartridge like a Dynavector that is plugged into something like an used AcousTech PH-1 or the newest version of the Monolithic PS-2 and its matching external power supply). As for the tuner, you can upgrade from a Magnum Dynalab FT-101 and go for something like a Magnum Dynalab Etude or try to hunt down a used McIntosh MR-78 or Yamaha T-2 (and in neither case, none of these tuners do not include remote controls, but these tuners are definitely worthy of your time and attention). I would personally keep my cables the way that they are (MITerminator 2 and 3 Interconnects and MITerminator 2 Speaker Cables), but if you want a smoother sound, then I would look toward Cardas.
Happy Listening and Good Luck!!!!!!!!
--Charles-- |
Obviously, there's tons of options...yet some obstacles and better chioces to consider for your tiny room.
Acoustically, that room is heavily challenged, and listening possition if limited. You will have to consider teh sonic integrity of the room from an acoustic standpoint as well...seriosly. More diffusion however is needed in that room overall, but maybe a couple of absorbtion spots if you could.
Back to the gear..You need to consider smaller bass limited speakers if going floor standers, unless you can bi-amp, and effectively get some sort of Parametric EQ on the bass woofer for larger speakers. If you go much more bass limited designs, you may get away with being able to deal with the "small room boom" and peaky unatural sound that tiny room offeres(I know, I've done many rooms like yours).
Smaller Thiel 1.6's would fit into that room with descent enough results with careful set up of speakers and chair(whatever). Tube gear will work superb with a strong amp section(4 ohm). You don'to sound like you need lots of thunder and rock and such, so bass limited would be ok I suppose. You could add/EQ a sub into the system if needed(I doubt you would).
Another option is smaller stand mounted monitors. The higher end $4K and above Dynaudio's (I think use the Essotar world class tweeter) might be an option in their highest end series. I've heard good things there.
In that case, the Musical Fidelity integrated at $5k new is the way to go there!...extremely refined, musical, and transparant sounding!..one of the best I've heard(and I've sold Pass, Krell, Ayre, Meridian, Plinius, Coda, and similar over the years in SS..that' piece is great!).
You might consider finding the speakers you like, that fit sonically best into that room(remember larger speakers will be a chore in your room to get sounding balanced and non-boomy!), then tinkering with different amp/preamp combo's.
Also, if you go tubes, consider that the room will warm up REAL FAST without proper ventilation, as with Class A SS amps. So consider.
AS for Digital Front End's and Tuners, it's hard to beat the relatively cheep used Sony 777es SACD players(retailed $3500 new) for CD and SACD. You could tinker with separate pre/pro's or read reviews on new "all in one unit's". Basically Digital processing has gotten superb comparatively, and not likely to improve so much for 16 bit cd's as they are. As for tuners, the hands down cheap choice is the Creek T43, as $700 new!..it's superb, if not darn near world class. I've heard much more expensive that weren't as good!..it's truely top notch and worth a try before spending big bucks..also, get a Dynalabs ST150 antanae.
Your interconnect choices will depend on the gear chioces. I like Acoustic Zen for the money/performance overall, but does depend.
Bottom line...you if you already have gear, you should try some speakers, maybe on the used market. Again, you will much more easily get good results with set up with smaller speakers in that room. I've had great succes with modest smaller speakers from Merlin TSM's, to Theil 1.5's, Sonus Minima Amators, and similar. There's a lot out there, but you gotta try something!(there is no magic first shot answer usually!...gotta take the time).
Still, the Thiel 1.6's should be one of the best speaker choices for a world class passive monitor. Also, you might look into what ATC offers in ACtive speakers, where you mightbe able to do some room correction(?), have active speakers, and get some world class sound. Not sure, but I know they make at least some world class offerings. Just not sure of price ranges and offerings. Still, I like what Active speakers can potentially offer(although I never liked any Lynn or Meridian speaker!..but I liked their gear)
Also a considertion for your needs might be some of the older Apogee panals that they made for the "Mini grads" and such. They were ultra clear, refined, detailed, musical and big sounding for what you are likely after sonically. They are also quite bass limited(good for your room) without the woofer pannels.
I thought of this because my buddy used to own them, and they were very nice.
Anyway, The smaller Totem Manni 2's aren't anything so special in the tweeter, the Merlin TSM's are just descent. The Dynaudio's are really pretty nice on the $4k and above side. The ultra high end Sonus's are very musical and refined sounding. There are a number of smaller high end "small company" offerings I've heard that are really world class sounding..but forgot the names. I've heard many at the audio shows I've attended.(you might check the CES show reviews in the audio mag's, and "hi-fi show's" articles in similar for ideas. Some companies will even let you audition first. Hummm...
Anyway, The Thiel 1.6 is really a good inexpensive marginal class A rated speaker, that shouldn't dissapoint if set up right. I like this over the very nice sounding Sonus Faber Grand Piano(belongs in high class B), Revel M20's, Audio Physic's otherwise excellent Virgo's(close call), etc. I just like what the 1.6 Thiel offers musically.
Another option is to find a pair of Celestion Kinston's!...Truely a top caliber speaker at $4k new(not sure if they still make em).
Anyway, if you do some reading/research, you might come up with more. Still, you likely won't go wrong with what I mentioned.
Front ends are PLENTIFUL, so read there as well. Tuners are trial and error as well, but not as critical I think.
Good luck |
A good start would be the following:
SET Amp -- Wavelength Audio
New Audio Frontiers Speakers -- Ref. 2 or 3 ($4 - 4.5K approx.)
REL Sub
My gear consists of Soundlab M1 speakers, CAT Jl-1 monoblocks, Wadia 861 CDP, Solid Tech Rack of Silence, custom made cables.
My purpose in mentioning my equipment, is to suggest my leanings, and advise if I were interested in moving from large, power hungry, full-range electrostatic speakers, the above components would be 1st. on my short list.
While I'm sure not many have heard New Audio Frontier Speakers, I can assure you of their sonic attributes. Theyre very fast/transparent, one of the best box speakers that I've heard, and quite easily driven by SET's.
My local audio dealer here in Indianapolis, is the importer for these speakers, and the seller of all the gear I own including the 2-chanel gear already mentioned, and my (7) HT speakers. Although I said local dealer, he was for several years; however, Jim recently moved to CAL., and it's an understatement to state that I will miss hanging out at his store, and obtaining his very cogent, objective advice.
Jim's opinions were highly valued, and I could implicitly trust his advice. Something, I'm sure you would agree is difficult to find, in this hobby.
With that said, take a peek at Jim's A-Gon posting, give him a call, and chat about your needs. He can be found at: http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/search2.pl?seller&zzSynersound -- or simply search for: New Audio Frontiers.
No, I'm not related to Jim, in business with him, or in a position to monetarily gain from this plug. I'm just simply a very satisfied customer and am grateful for Jim's advice, and will miss his store, and the fellow hobbyists I had the pleasure of meeting there. |
My system is below $10K and I am very satisfied with it. I guess with $20K to spare, you can easily go for vinyl and live in nirvana. I suggest going for tube system, since your digital preference might be too glaring in sound-- may be not. Try explore the Hurricane or Zeus for amp. ...
Tuner, I recommend Mac MR 71 (sorry no remote).
Good luck! |
Start off with BBC LS3/5A w/ reference crossover & reference cabinets manufactured by Stirling Broadcast and go from there. Invest in good tube electronics, spend the rest on cabling, power cords and vibration isolation and yourt choice TT or digital front end. LS3/5As w/ all options ain't cheap at 2400. You might actually come in under 10K for system. |
