Thank you, Hartwerger. @_@
Like many of us, I earned my audio stripes the hard and expensive way. While others find humor in watching people make those same mistakes- I can't bear witness to it! I'd hate to watch some guy waste his time and money because I wouldn't share what I have learned. This hobby can be quite elitist and alienating. I prefer to share experiences in an effort to destroy certain negative associations with audiophilia. |
...did I say 'negative associations'?? I meant STERO TYPES. |
One and only truth -
"Your ears is the final frontier - it is up to you as person to accept & confirm the reproduced sound as the closest to the original performance - then you have found what you have been searching for".
(sometimes this 'expedition' can take 'forever')
Best regards,
Dewald Visser |
Don't listen when in a bad mood. It'll make you get rid of cd's. |
I have been designing and istalling hi-end audio systems for over 30 years. I feel for consumers because its a very daunting task. It takes patience, knowledge, and money, to design a truely state of the art audio system. You have two choices, ether spend some serious time to learn all about stereo systems or, I would suggest finding a saleman that you really believe in to help you thru the process. So honestly you are better off researching your saleman, and store unless you really want to take the time to learn this industry. I learned it by building and modifying my own gear which helped me to learn whats important on the inside and how it relates to what we hear. Being in sales its really convienant to be able to play with different systems and equipment. I could honestly write a book just as others have done on how to design a system and what to look and listen for. Robert Harleys book is pretty darn good and will give you a good foundation for which to work from so Good luck and happy listening Kevin |
1. Don't invest in gimmicks like the Clever Little Clock.
2. Try to be satisfied with what you have. Invest in tweaks that will enhance your existing system!
3. Try not to be taken in by the hype both in magazines & Audiogon.
4. Don't buy on impulse, do some research prior to making a purchase unless you have a good idea what your buying is compatible in your system & are familiar with its sonics.
5. Remember why we are here to begin with, the love of music. Don't put the gear before the music.
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Don't blame CDs for bad sound, and keep all indefinitely. You will be amazed at how good nearly all start to sound as your system evolves. |
My five rules.
1. It's about the sound. Not the specs, the looks, the prestige, the fashion, the reviews or any of the quasi-religious debates that consume some people.
2. This is not a commodity, so find a good dealer and stick with him over the long haul. Use magazines and the Internet sparingly and as an adjunct. A good dealer is passionate about sound, and has rock-solid integrity. This kind of dealer sells sound, not boxes. He doesn't disparage anything in his store, and not a lot outside of his store. Whether you spend $2,000 or $100,000 your business and the relationship is important. If you find that dealer, then you must act with integrity in return. He is in a tough business and has almost certainly struggled to maintain his integrity in the face of enormous contrary pressure. (No, I am not a dealer. I am a happy customer.)
3. Make no snap decisions. Instead, look to the long term. If you find yourself swapping out gear in less than five years, you should ask yourself whether you're in this for the sound or for something else.
4. Enjoy what you have. You can't try everything, so resist "audio lust." Make improvements to your system over time in consultation with your dealer. But always remember: It's about the sound, not the boxes.
5. Pay attention to analog. I'm not telling you to worship at the altar of vinyl, but rather to seriously listen to it at some point on your journey. Then decide for yourself, using nothing other than your ears to guide you. |
Oops, forgot a sixth rule.
6. The room is the single most important component in your system. This is truer and truer as your other components get better. |
IMO the most important factor is the quality of the recording, then the speaker / room interaction. |
1. Find a dealer who has great sound in their showroom, and then make sure they will do/allow home demos.
If you have a good dealer, IMHO, all the rest will fall into place |
The only person who has to be happy with your system is you. |
A handful of lessons from my experience:
1) In addition to the obvious dealers to avoid, beware of those who are passionate about a product that is not captivating to you. Your ears are right. If a dealer trys to tell you what you like, don't buy from him or her. In fact, if using a dealer, its good to audition several before making any buying decisions at all.
2) If you are buying retail, listen to the product at home in your system before buying it. If the dealer will not accomodate this, then its a red flag. If you insist on considering it without a home demo (preferably without the dealer present), then listen to it for at least a couple of hours at your dealer. Over two hours a) your dealer will get tired and leave you to make up your own mind and b) the initial blush of something new and exciting will begin to fade and you will begin to actually hear the component. The longer the audition, the better.
3) Magazine reviews, for the most part, are rubbish. Those that are accurate are impossible to separate from those that are not. Almost all component reviews are positive. Why? Because, a) reviewers get paid via advertising and b) if, during the course of the review it becomes apparent the reviewer is not enthusiastic about the product, the manufacturer may withdraw it from the review. Informal bad reviews happen, but formal bad reviews don't get published. If you must read and rely on a review, take any negative comment found in the review and multiply its weight by a factor of one billion.
4) When doing a demo at a dealer and you think you like the product, its very important to a) find out whether the dealer has made a modification to the product and b) make sure the dealer has roughly matched the product to similarly priced gear. Dealers love to, for example, put megabuck cables and power conditioners on lesser gear.
5) Before buying any tube amp, find out what it takes to change the tubes and bias the amp. Most are easy, but there are a few knuckle-heads such as the old EAR534. Having said that, dollar for dollar, a tube amplifier is generally your best bet for musical amplification.
6) If a product is foreign made, make sure it has a well established repair facility in North America (unless you don't mind shipping it overseas someday). The heavier it is, the more important this becomes.
7) Before shipping to or buying from another country, make sure that you and the other party are in agreement about the declaration value and who will pay the duties.
8) One of the most common system shortcomings is a sonically hot or harsh high end. If so, don't let your dealer or otherwise tell you that a) its not, b) it just sounds realistic, c) you are just unused to all the detail it provides, or d) its not a system problem - its your room.
9) If you ever receive a request to pay via Western Union, its probably a scam.
10) If you ever get a "second chance" offer from somebody on EBay on a product that you bid upon and did not win, it may be a scam. Thieves like to "cut" ads for unsold items and "paste" them into emails that appear very legit.
That is my .02 cents. Jeff |
First of all...RUN!!! Get out of this hobby ASAP! It will leave you bewildered, obsessed and broke. Otherwise it is really cool! Seriously, my advice is as follows:
1. Trust your own ears. Never let anyone intimidate your opinion by making you feel like you "should" have heard something.
2. Enjoy the music. If you let it, this hobby will turn you into a tech-oriented buff that only plays test CDs. The audio system is secondary to the music..always.
3. Impress yourself. It is nice to impress your friends, but, this can lead to purchases that don't suit you the best. It does not have to CRANK so the neigborhood can hear it to be impressive. In general, those systems aren't.
4. If you are into LPs and turntables, then the front end is the most important. Otherwise, the speaker/room and speaker/amp interfaces are the most important.
5. I like tubes. It is just my preference. I like sensitive speakers, even before tubes. You must find what you like and then forget the upgrade path for a while.
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Davey Crockett said, "There ain't no ticks like poly-ticks, bloodsuckers all!"
O
o
. |
1) Proper speaker placement supplemented by acoustic room treatments patiently and accurately applied is the single most important component in your system. Period. More than which speakers, which source components , or what amp/ pre-amp combination.
2) Really clean, powerful available power into your system is usually overlooked until most people have some serious bucks into most of the other "stuff". This is a mistake. Provide dedicated power if possible, or at least seriously conditioned/cleaned up electricity available for your equipment. The difference is startling.
3) Tubes just sound more natural than solid state and should be in either your pre-amp or power amp (preferably both), or in a nice tubed integrated [at least] (if that's your path at the time) to really appreciate how uncanny a home system can sound.
4) "Reasonably good" speakers and "reasonably good" signal sources will sound absolutely outstanding (way better than you would have ever believed possible) if you make sure you've done #1,#2,#3 above first... ("Really good or better" speakers/signal sources will absolutely blow you away if.... you you've done #1,#2,#3 above first...).
5) Approach the hobby with more respect than you would an addiction ("Upgrade-itis") where you'll find yourself saving up again and again for your next purchase. This I know only too well. Try to enjoy each step of the way and linger there as long as you can.
(Final comment) Sitting in the listening chair late at night...when all the synergy of your system aligns like the planets in the sky... is like no other connection you'll ever know... it's called "Bliss". |
If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. |
If it sounds too good to be true, It's because you spent $$$$$
on a bunch of Tefon caps. God bless Tefon. |
Read, ask, listen, then read some more.
Take your time auditioning; bring your own material along.
Audition alone; also means don't let the salesperson chatter through the demo.
Better to buy quality used equipment than to compromise on new.
Buy the best you can afford; you will be surprised how long you will be satisfied with the "right" component. |
Pay attention to the music.
If it feels right rather than sounds perfect you've got it.
Only listen to the components or your friends advice if you feel somethings not where you want it.
Move your speakers, placement is king.
If you're just starting try and get a single medium (cd, records, dig, tape, tuner etc.) sounding good to you before adding the rest in. It helps to focus the money on a decent end to end path first
Seek therapy, once in you're in for life |
Garbage In = Garbage Out !!!!!!!! |
It's what YOU hear, not what THEY think. |
As a newbe I save4d a lot of frustration by "using" some hifi-veterans wellbalanced systems as a referance. Every uppgrade was matched up against some veterans more expensive components, and if my choice did a good appearance I knew I was on the right track.
Both the hifi-shops and the veterans liked this testing too, so I made me a few friends and connections for later "use" ;) |
Enjoy lots of live music. Get the response of your ears tested.
What I thought was a channel balance issue was actually a dip in the response of my left ear. By the look of your set up I say get some pro advice on acoustically treating your room. You may find Bass response in your listening room less peaky and more accurate. Done right everything will improve and unlike some equipment will stay that way permanently. Your set up seems pretty good as it is. My final advice is don't catch upgradiola virus, it's usually terminal and you will have heaps more moola to blow on CD's. Lastly enjoy the music through your system often. Cheers thermo |
Whatever you purchase to listen to or through it should be what you consider the best you can afford. You should sit and listen for as along as you have to, make the right decision for youself and not what someone else thinks you should get because it sound best to them.
This go's for equipment & software. You must be happy and only you have to live with it.
IMHO Enjoy |
Too funny!! I just dumped $3.5K into JPS speaker cable and my wife knows I got the cable but has not, to date, asked me how much I paid for it. And she outearns me by a ration of almost 5 to 1! God I love that woman.
But I'll still sneak CDs into the house and pray the mail is still in the box when I get home. ;-) |
heres one I've not seen but has proven its value to me. Take up a musical instrument. I've been learning to play guitar (6 string electric) and i feel that I have a very good idea about what the instrument should sound like and little aspects of its sound. helps lots in determining how accurate speakers, or perhaps I should say the system, is. I guess it's dumb to think about learning to play an instrument for this reason but even messing around with instruments will give you the idea. |
Over time I have continued to upgrade but I just keep forgetting to sell off the old stuff...audio pack rat yes. Anyway I now swap out speakers, amps, cables etc you know mix and match. I have learned so much more from this process than anything else, god I love this addiction, or affliction or whatever. After reading so many of the responses in this forum, I noticed repeated comments to trust your ears...seems like some of the best advice I've read. |
Be afraid. Be very afraid. Be less afraid if you never go into the ‘big’ room at the high end dealership. Everything will become much easier for you if you stay the heck out of there!
Learn to listen.
Learn to say “No.” if that’s not a strong suit for you… or just listen to your significant other more often.
Depending on how deeply you wish to injure yourself, er, get into this economically draining & psychologically debilitating distraction, parading as a normal past time, keep in mind that everything makes a difference. Everything! The room. The Cabling. The rack. The incoming power. Your ears. Pets. Neighbors. But most of all it could well be your own ego that winds up driving you to the poor house.
Find your own sound quickly. For some it’s tubes, for other’s it’s solid state. Further put, it’s SET amps & High eff speakers, still other’s will opt for digital or analog throughout. This means going to showrooms. Do bare in mind the ‘big room’ caveat. Self honesty here will pay dividends later on.
Great speakers can not fix upstream signal losses or problems.
Spending a lot is optional. Eg., ego. Spending wisely is better.
Mate speakers to the room, amps to speakers.
Putting money into room acoustical treatments is just about a ‘must’ to reap the true benefits from your system.
The best barometer for how good a system is will be the width of the smile on your face, the amount of toe tapping going on while listening, and the difficulty you have with turning off your rig. When that becomes a routine, daily event, you are finished and should then seek out another hobby to master, and allow your present audio contrivance provide you the pleasure it should at that point, rather than allowing it to nag you for more time and money to be sunk into it.
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1. Room Treatment and speakers positioning are very, very important. Room resonances must be eliminated at least partially.
2. A good subwoofer can greatly augment the pleasure you take in the music listening. Patience is required here though, because it's hard to integrate a sub into the room/system.
3. Listen to the music in the dark with your eyes closed.
4. Buy used components.
5. Give a chance to other music genres which you normally don't listen to.
. |
Stop moving things around, stop touching and changing cables and leave your system playing and playing and playing for months!!! I repeat DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING, even when cleaning the dust watch out so that you dont really move things...
A system get better and better the more its components work together... |
1. Learn how to listen to music. If you haven't all ready, stop cranking tunes and listen to the music. May seem simple but it's not. It takes practice. Sit down for it.
2. Don't be afraid to buy used.
3. Explore music. If you only listen to one genre of music, you're system won't be worth as much to you.
4. Don't ignore room treatments. Too much bass doesn't mean replace your speakers.
5. If you live in the U.S., you owe it to yourself and this country to try out some U.S. designed and manufactured gear. There's some truly amazing stuff out there. |
1) Similar to Thermonicavenger thoughts, if your music doesn't sound quite right and you're a graying boomer, get your hearing checked. You may find out that your hi freqs are not what they were when you were 20 years old. 2) Ask your wife to sit in the manchair and listen to your system. When you ask her what you hear and she says music, you may have tinitus. But she'll have saved you a boat load of $$ trying to clean up the noise. 3) Losing part of my freqs and tinitus has made me appreciate music in a different way. If you can lose yourself in beautiful music to such a point that the ringing seems to vanish, you put together a good system for you. 4) Enrich your Family in music, and be interested in what your kids listen to. It may sound like noise but they'll appreciate your interst. 5) Dean Martin. |
1)Put together a system that ultimately you cannot wait to sit down and listen to. If it gives you pleasure it does not matter what anyone else says
2)Buy the best sounding speakers you can find
3)Then buy Power amp, then Preamp, then source
4)There is unending advice on cables but lower price cables will work just fine. Use the power cords that come with your equipment
5)Enjoy the music |
It's great that someone revived this older thread, which I hadn't seen. Here are my two cents:
1. If you can, dedicate a space for your gear and make that room audiocentric; and even if you can't set up a listen room, spend time positioning your speakers and dialing in their location in your room.
2. Know whatÂ’s possible, visit as many showrooms as you can tolerate and try to connect with local people who are in to audio.
3. Learn how to listen critically; build your own personal list of reference recordings and sit with someone who can help you learn to hear subtle differences bn gear (think of it like a wine tasting: when you initially start you may be able to detect subtle differences bn products but may not have the language to describe those differences very well).
4. YouÂ’ll generally get much more satisfaction out of new music than new gear.
5. Be patient in assessing audio gear; youÂ’ll hear new things with different music.
enjoy.
e |
Look for consensus on Audiogon. |
Read Blindjim 11-24-09.
In the words of Adrian Belew... "this is a daaangerous place..." |
Audition, audition, audition, before you purchase. All equipment is musical dependant. Your eqipment should sound best with the music you like, not the music I like. |
1. Build a great relationship with a great dealer who's priority is not to sell you something.
2. Trust your ears.
3. Read, read, read.
4. Attend live performances so you know what well reproduced music should sound like.
5. Don't be afraid to likes omething that costs less than something else, as long as cost isn't affecting your decision. |
1.) Be realistic with yourself, go with what you can afford.
2.) Choose one of the following, "LOOKS" or "PERFORMANCE." We live in a society that judges by looks. Remember (very important here) just because it "looks" expensive does not mean that it performs like it and just because it looks "low end" does not mean that it might perform like it.
3.)If and when you come across a real good deal don't think about it just get it! "..Think Long, Think Wrong!.." is what I always say. Because if you finally decide to go back and get it, it's gone.
4.) Take care of your investment. Remember every time you purchase a piece of audio equipment, think of it as an investment.
5.) "Take care of your stuff!" Come to a point that you are statisfied with your system, its when you want more, bigger, better or more expensive that ruin's it for you. Be content with what you already have. |
FIRST AND THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!! You must use your imagination. Imaging,depth,and all the other things that you cant "hear" just close your eyes and tune out everything else and imagine the band in front of you and at first youll notice the singer placed firmly in the middle then the purcussion in the center and with enough time you will ntice the drums sound behind the singer and the giutar in front of the piano and eventually you can hear the singer walk from one side of the stage to the other. Depth is something that can only be found in high end.Any good stereo can place instuments left or right its called stereo but when you can tell how far back or how close the instuments are you are getting close to the "magic".This is depth.
SECOND!!! Never have a TV on while listening it only takes away from the experience.Always close your eyes and yes listening at night does sound better for many reasons one is less people on the power grid so you get cleaner power but that doesnt matter as much as it just sound better.
THIRD!!! do not believe anyone including yourself. only trust your ears and dont be afraid to make mistakes. buy used that way its broken in and if you dont like it you can usually turn around and sell it for exactly what youve got in it.
AND LAST!!! cables espically rca,s make a difference but not untill you get your rig RIGHT.Cables are for fine tuning not correcting a lack of sound qaulity.However once you start adding great cables you will find that they do make a HUGE diffrence but only for fine tuning a well designed and listened to system. Have fun! |
Amp,Pre-amp,source,speakers(sized to room). Anyone who tells you otherwise is simply deluded by his favorite component. The amp is the "heart" of your system, period. |
IMHO it's as follows:
1) The room.. it makes or breaks the system
2) The room..it makes or breaks the system
3) Listen for yourself before buying
4) The latest itineration is necessarily the greatest.
5) Price doesn't necessarily determine how good the piece is.
6) Get the front end right and your'e on your way.
7) Your system is only as good as its weakest link.
8) LIsten to ALL types of music before buying
9) Listen to a recording of a piano before buying
10) Buying used isn't always a bad idea..Thanks A'gon!
11) Experiment with placement of speakers and equipment in the room
12) Maybe this should be 1st...WAF is VERY IMPORTANT!! Or so my husband
says..:0) |
I thought of more but I believe is the MAIN cause for upgrading too much and being a heartache to us sometimes and yes it does happen!!!SPEAKER PLACEMENT!!!!!People dont play with their speakers enough!!! Moving them twice and one of the moves was for grandmas stay that week doesnt count!! I try at least once a week now(but ive been doing it for years)to move them in out toe them a little just to play with the imaging and front back to control my low end and placement.Think of the placement of your speakers as a control or controls like presence,bass, treble,imaging and midrange. You are able to change all of these things with only moving a speaker! the first piece to play with is your final piece in your rig the speakers.Alright thats my rant and goodluck to us all God knows we need it! |
Get a real sense of what you are striving for;high end 2 channel,casual listening,surround sound,tube or solid state;but decide which way you want to proceed and get the speakers you can build around with proper system matching of components.
Also you need to understand the acoustics of your listening enviroment and be able to correct any areas that color or degrade the sound you are striving to obtain.
Speaker cabling and interconnects is just as important as well.
Lastly use this site to put your system together saving big $$$ and also ask questions in the proper forums when you have to. |
i'm not sure about the "wise" part, but herewith are my words:
1. form should follow function--equipment should serve your real priorities. thus, if you're going to use your system mainly to listen to NPR, it probably doesn't make sense to invest in a megabuck, multichannel home theater.
2. price is an extremely imperfect indicator of quality. any number of manufacturers are making modestly-priced gear which sounds just as good or better as their more expensive, more hyped competitors'.
3. that said, you cannot go wrong buying the best quality you can afford. once you've acquired a great-sounding piece, you'll never regret not buying something inferior. ergo, you're much better off spending your current budget on a few high-quality pieces and augmenting later.
4. cables and interconnects are mostly snake oil; the audible differences between well-made such products are generally not cost-effective. room treatment and placement, however, is critical.
5. unlike video technology, which has evolved extremely quickly, audio technolgy (at least the two channel type) evolves at a much more glacial pace--the components being produced today don't necessarily sound significantly better than stuff produced ten years ago. consequently, the used market offers you the opportunity to put together a truly high-end system at a fraction of the cost of new gear.
6. multi-channel, blueray, ipods, lifestyle speaker systems and other such foofaraw all serve a purpose, but the laws of physics dictate that two channel music, as heard through big old speakers still sounds best.
cheers to all. |
Analog is easier to get music from(and the software is cheaper-used records). Audio societies are good to join(You don't have to buy what you hear.). Comparitive auditions have helped me. If you can find an audio manufacturer/modifier to guide you, it is much cheaper in the long run(thanks, Ori). Instead of cobbling together pieces that get good reviews, many times they know what is inside a component and how that sounds. Digital is definitely improving. Tweaks(and tweaking) matter. Don't believe that the more you spend,the better the equipment is. Forums(Audiogon)can be very good for equipment, and if you don't know anything about something(it can bring you up to snuff in a hurry.). |
Don't stray from what sounds right to you. Keep an open mind. Pay attention mostly to room acoustics and power line products, ie.. cords , conditioners. Also, especially for TT listeners, don't skimp on isolation. If you do, it will be on your own peril.
I've heard multi-thousand dollar systems in their dealer provided environment, however, I've preferred my system most of the time in my "tiny" room. Never, never disregard the "power" of a properly designed power cord and what it can "do" for your system!!! |
Five things
1) Use a high power amp
2) Cross a sub over at 80-turn it down
3) Spike speakers
4) soft pucks under electronic equipment. Not spikes or wood blocks
5) cd does reveal more sound than records |
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