Sjungdahl & Xiekitchen,
First yes I think too many young kids, teens and adults have sadly missed or are missing the boat about what entertainment a good and it does not have to be too pricey sound system can be like. It's disappointing because hype and marketing mostly nonsense and drivel abounds and it can drive anyone crazy if they can't learn to shut it all out at times. Youth get badly caught up in the "I want it now." and "I deserve it now." mentality, look at all too many of their lousy role models. They hurry up and stop, hurry up and stop never realising what is passing them by. This point reminds me of a verse in Pieces of Eight from STYX
It's six oclock
Good morning sounds are everywhere
The warmth of spring, a gentle breeze blows through my hair
I hurry through my life never stopping to see
How beautiful it was meant to be
Im just a prisoner in a kings disguise
Broken dreams as we shuffle by
I think if youth can be exposed to good quality music early enough and to the pure, simple pleasure of it to listen, enjoy and relax to they then have a chance to carry on with many of the joys of it we all had as we grew up and still have today.
I got into hifi about the age of 12 but music was played in my family's home even younger. But about age 12 I read through my first audio magazine and buddies of mine and I all got into it about the same time and way, Christmas and birthday gifts of good basic stereo systems from Japan Inc. From there it was spend part of our allowances on vinyl albums until we began working and then part of our pay cheques were spent on vinyl and gear. Sometimes I bought the wrong stuff for me but I learned and it became a hobby and an outlet to slip away from the hype and stress of daily life for a few hours hear and there.
There was nothing like going to the record shop buying some LP's and rushing home to throw them on my turntable. I wanted always to have better and better sound and gear. Today I stil do but am not as anal about it given as an adult you understand or should about money and learning to shop better and appreciate it more. Appreciation was instilled into me and my sibling at young ages. It became a part of the experience and a desire to take care of things we had especially more pricey or expensive stuff. For me it all added up to the joy of good hifi and recorded music.
I think my advice to parents with young kids, play music and try to teach them to sit down and just listen maybe as schools kids do it with their homework, Lord knows that's how I did it a lot of it and from there they will more likely understand why not just good vinyl is great but good CD's too. |
Xiekitchen,
I don't think "todays youth live in abject musical poverty". It goes back to what I said in my first post in this thread about introducing someone to real audio. Some can't hear it others don't care.
I'm going to use my family as an example.
I have one son, one daughter, three nephews, one niece, two brothers.
Out of that mix only one nephew is into audio (he's going vinyl as well - on his own not from anyting I said).
All the others do digital, the more convenient the better.
They have all heard my system and really enjoy it, but except for one nephew not a priority (thats 2/9 or 22.2%).
There is still good music being created. The problem is there is almost too much music (even with RAP re-categorized as non-musical vulgar poetry with PC percussion) being put out it's hard to weed through the garbage.
One last thing I should mention. The percentage of my family that prefers vinyl over digital is 100%. They just don't care enough to put in the time. |
What I'm wondering, is new music mastered from an analog source or is it digitally mastered and then pressed on Vinyl?
Wouldn't this greatly affect the sound.
I'm not overly technical and to tell you the truth don't know if I could tell the difference.
For example, I ordered a 200gram copy of Nirvana MTV Unplugged. Pressed by Simply Vinyl UK, which I've found out has (had) been accused of using CDs as masters, and it sounds not too great. Really compressed.
My analog rig sucks right now, so I'll wait to make final jugdement, but I assumed since it was an all acoustic version of Nirvana, it would sound great. The CD is really good.
Also, I started listening to music on Vinyl (34 years old) and kinda skipped the whole CD period. I've never really owned a CD player. Now, I just use a Macbook, iTunes and an Airport Express into a tube DAC... now that is convenience..
Great for parties/guests.
For the CDs I do have, I just use a 1st generation Sony Playstation that I bought for $35.
I figure if I really like the MP3/Aiff version, I'll buy the LP and use analog for "critical" listening.
Records are fun to collect and looking for them is a great way to kill and afternoon. |
Les creative:
Really good post response and I agree. I've never left vinyl, being an amateur record collector since the 70's, basically a Rega man with a P-3 and now a P-9 for the last 5 years. I only got into CD's around 2001 with a used Planet. Now I have a Rega Jupiter 2000. Here's my thing: I have two separate and almost equal systems in two different rooms in different parts of the house; a cd system and a Lp system. I am not one to say the cd sucks; I have quite a few cd's I think sound great. I'm just not going to say "Well Lps are better and Cd's are inferior". They are different, and at times I can't pinpoint what it is exactly that makes them different. I guess I like the LP better but for classical I like the lack of surface noise and pops and clicks that digital provides; although I have many great classical LP's so good you don't notice or hear surface noise. Anyway I feel sorry for these current generations that have never heard a good stereo system or good music for that matter. Today's youth live in abject musical poverty. |
Tomcy6,
I think we all know that most of what's said in here is said with tongue in cheek.
We all probably have digital in our systems but prefer vinyl, most audiophiles that really explore both - do.
High end digital player advertisements tout "sounds as good as vinyl". That pretty much explains it all.
I doubt anyone thinks a person is less because they listen to digital music. It's just a matter of taste and convenience.
My previous post said "keep the better formats alive". I didn't say keep the better analog formats alive.
I'm not into vinyl cause I like cleaning albums, or flipping them over or the nostalgia or even the cover art, I'm into Vinyl cause it sounds better.
Since I made the transition BACK to vinyl my listening session have become twice as long, the music is simply more enjoyable.
No, I don't enjoy the extra work but the sound, the music, that's what it's about.
Most of us are chasing something and for some vinyl gets them closer. |
Tomcy6,
Vinyl lovers do not really disparage people who listen to CD's, many vinyl lovers also invest quite a bit in to CD's. But it has been vinyl being bashed since 1982 by hearing "PERFECT SOUND FORVEVER!" as buzz words. Many of us fell into the trap of CD sound and many of us came to realise that it was more hype than fact. I dropped out of vinyl in late 1986, not to return til 2003. I like a fish took the bait about what is not heard on CD's such as pops and crackles etc. We were told to listen to not what is their and many of us fell for it not realising that something else was not their or there but in a disturbing way, lack of soul and a steely edge to many CD's and cd players sound.
So yes some of us push back against the CD because we kept getting hammered by its hype.
Yes, one can buy some nice CD players nowadays and even some in the past. But the quality of CD or digital production today is on a declining slope and it's just sad that the industry is messing up what can be good in CD's to push the nonsense they do now in terms of production.
So same goes with lossy digital formats which truly are not hifi. I get sick of the nonsense too of satellite radio advertising it as CD quality sound. NO IT'S NOT! Good FM still sounds better than the over compressed garbage of sat radio.
Many of us who enjoy vinyl also DEMAND good sound and will accept good sound of CD's if engineered well and played on a good CD player. But it should not have to be so hard to get it. I know I will not be able to get all my music wants on vinyl, FINE! I am more than happy using CD's as a quality alternative. But I am tired of the hype of CD's for 25+ years and the industry pushes similar hype on lossy formats, GIVE ME A BREAK!
Those who want their music solely on MP3 or other lossy formats can have it. I force nobody to play LP's, CD's cassette tapes or whatever. If they want 500 Gigs on a hard drive of compressed MP3 junk it's their business just don't tell me it sounds good and tell me vinyl is not better sounding than most if not all other formats. SACD/DVD-A gives vinyl a good run for the money but is not as better, even if it was both formats are DEAD or close to it. Vinyl has a physical library through history going in to the millions of titles. CD's maybe a few hundred thousand.
I live happily with both formats in my system though I prefer vinyl first. I am also as noted in my previous post looking at getting back into audio cassette as another choice and fun aspect of recording and playback.
So in conclusion, I don't hear most vinyl lovers bash CD listeners, we just pick apart the flaws in the format and like to trounce the nonsensical hype of it over the last 25 years and we will do the same with lossy formats for as long as the industry markets said as a quality audio format.
|
Well, I question myself all the time after getting back into vinyl 2 years ago. Should I dump the Lp's and table, and just get some kind of higher end SACD/Cd player, as I have a bunch of both.
Then as the other day, I do a self test. Recently it was what was supposed to be the best CD version of AJA, mastered by Steve Hoffman vs. the newer Cisco LP of AJA. Yep they do sound different, but I just like the LP sound better overall.
Recently on another board it was mentioned that CD must be better as it is in the majority, and the majority buy it, so it must be better. Obviously a silly comment. But then it must be the majority that has caused death of what I'll call high end discs, such as the "gold" type remaster CD, and SACD/DVD-A, because these folks did not support them.
Yet vinyl is going crazy, Classic records, Speakers Corner, or guys like Steve Hoffman and a few others putting forth a large amount of effort and time in quality pressings on Vinyl.In the current Stereophile, in an interview with the guy who owns RTI, he has never seen such a request and backlog for vinyl pressings. They had a number of some 280,000 pressings of I believe just the 2 Led Zeppelin 4 lp boxes. This does not include all the other current pressings from Classic/MoFi or the new Warner Re-releases, and a host of others. Some of the best talent is working on Vinyl. Obviously enough people are buying to support the effort in this format!!!
So I'm convinced to stay with Viyl, and am looking at a TT upgrade. To each his own. |
Why do vinyl lovers feel that they have to disparage cds and people who listen to them? Michael Fremer started this trend and it has been adopted by too many of his followers.
As others have said, there are good and bad sounding lps and cds. If you prefer vinyl that's great, but as we know no two people have the same preferences for much of anything in audio. So enjoy your vinyl and let people who enjoy cd do so in peace.
People talk about the resurgent popularity of vinyl but it's still just a tiny fraction of cd sales, even among audiophiles, I would guess.
The sound quality of cds and cd players is steadily improving and will continue to do so for many years. Audiophile digital downloads will offer even better sound quality eventually, but I will wait for that technology to mature a little.
Maybe the vinyl lovers can answer a question I have. How do you enjoy listening to 45rpm vinyl when you have to get up every 10 minutes to flip, clean and tweak? I'm sure the albums sound great but the ratio of listening time to time spent fooling with your lps and gear seems a little low to me. |
Its all a matter of tastes/hobbies. I would usually argue that once a person is introduced to an audiophile quality system they will see the light - it's simply not true (my brothers love my system and actually have brought friends over to hear - but they have Circuit City systems at home).
Most people don't care enough to spend what's necessary on a decent system, they just never will.
Audiophiles, our group, is the minority. Because of this, convenience will win. Let's just hope there is enough of us to keep the better formats alive. Our best hope is to introduce our hobby, our love, to friends and family and hope it takes.
Digital will from now on be in front simply because of convenience. This also means most R&D will be in digital. The upside - we can hope it means, regardless of preference, that digital gets better.
But, it already has. We have SACD and DVDA. Ok, I know, it's still digital but it's a step forward.
Wait, SACD/DVDA is all but dead.
Why? Convenience.
SACD and DVDA killed by Ipods and MP3s.
The death of SACD and DVDA has an upside -
VINYL re-issue/re-emergence.
I think audiophiles are born such (or at least the propensity). It's like perfect pitch, which can be learned (the jury still out on if alwas true), if storngly desired.
I loved what Les_creative_edge said about digital music collectors with "500Gigs of music". Yeh, 500Gigs of music of good music?
No, maybe a couple gigs of good music which will be listened to poorly. |
People who buy, listen too and cherish good vinyl in the end could not care any less about the ones who must stand on some soapbox to cry "Vinyl is Dead!" I mean why bother? You want your lossy MP3, iPod cr*p? Good, go listen to it. Lossy digital formats are perfectly acceptable for casual listening and for personal listening through ear-buds. On this, the ear-bud thing it's funny at how much some will spend on the ear-buds to listen to generally poor quality lossy music. But I digress, I listen to MP3 on my personal player, it's fine, ok and I don't expect much from it. But I'd never use an iPod or other MP3 player on my home system. Sorry but I want to enjoy the performance even my well designed but modest home system can give. I did not plow hard earned money into said system to plug it with audio output from cr*ppy lossy music sound. Even the CD is borderline HiFi to me, acceptable, enjoyable but not the be all and end all of recorded sound, just a good alternative to my LP's.
Back to vinyl. It is not only the fact that it is generally a better sounding format, more human, more emotional and more real so to speak than all but maybe the best mastered music played on highest quality digital disc players but it's also about the the journey... From finding LP's you like, to staring at the big beautiful covers, looking at liner notes and then the cool black disc. Those are sound waves you see cut into vinyl and nothing else gives you that. Clean it up and put it on a nice turntable and system and you will have 40+ minutes of simple relaxing pleasure. Unlike digital media CD, HD and flash based. you want to listen to each song on vinyl as its too much a hassle to skip tracks. You soon get into the groove so to speak and maybe learn to appreciate other songs on the album that do not get much or any airplay. With CD's and other digital media it's too easy to just skip forward. Look at many young kids using MP3 etc. and watch them often skip through track after track not even listening to the whole song at times. I mean what gives?
So vinyl especially the LP gives you glorious cover art, nice liners, nice and cool looking discs. You can get a plug and play turntable or you can others to tweak till your heart's content. You can shop for new and used vinyl to build up huge physical (ie: unlike non-physical digital flash or HD libraries) libraries quite cheaply. You do not have to worry about future format incompatibility as hard drives may. You don't have to worry about the loss of all your hard drive or flash media music files being corrupted or lost. You do not have to open your computer to scroll through endless menus to find music. With vinyl and even the CD it's just look through your physical collection.
I am a vinyl fan but I too still enjoy having my CD player and CD's. I am also looking at getting back into audio cassettes, not just for the fun of recording and more so preserving my favourite vinyl onto analogue cassettes. I can and do do this with my stand alone CD recorder but this is a digital copy. I am toying with bringing back a cassette deck into my system for the fun of analog preservation. But also to allow me to exploit another used audio market, 2nd hand audio cassettes.
So in conclusion it's comical at how the digital geeks want to denigrate vinyl they even want to denigrate the digital CD but they are yelling into the wind because in reality those who like and want vinyl aren't listening nor do they really care. The lossy music recording freaks who care not to learn how to enjoy the simple pleasure and quality of sound a well recorded and produced music has but only want some priding ability to say "I have 500Gigs of music on a hard drive." "Yeah 25,000 songs, blah, blah, blah." as if it is some special thing. They miss out the art of of learning to develop skills of serious music listening and the associated pleasure of it. To simply sit down, relax and TO LISTEN! This is these geeks loss. So be it then. |
the generalization that one is better than the other breaks down when you compare specific recordings. both have instances of winners and losers. having both formats in a stereo simply gives you choice, and the ability to find music which is exclusive to one or the other. as an artform, the long player, be it cd or lp, is fun to collect, and each have their place. |
Musicslug is right to some degree. However, there have always been quality control issues - both on LP and on CD. Why would we have Mofi reissues of standard LP's if the originals were perfect? Many, many CD's are poorly mastered. Some of mine are only playable on the truck system - i.e. Cher's Greatest Hits (OK; I have no taste).
to me, the hallmark of either a good CD system or a good vinyl system is that I can hear what's reproduced - and that includes a poor sound stage, compression of the music signal, and the subway rumbling under the church the baroque quartet was recorded in.
Just my two cents, |
I am into vinyl and believe it to be better, for all the well-known reasons, but there are serious quality control issues with vinyl - my sense is that there are more 'weak links' between a good master and a good LP than between the master and a CD. there is some seriously bad sounding new vinyl out there, so it's important that there are forums like audiogon where people can discuss these matters and warn each other of the junk. I have bought great sounding LPs that were just low-price, indie rock (bonnie prince billy's 'master and everyone') as well as overpriced 'audiophile' LPs (waterlily's Imrat Khan doing 'Ajmer') that are pretty much unlistenable. |
Regardless of the content of the articles, the thing that poped out at me, was that the anti-vinyl article was written in 2006, whereas the pro-vinyl article was written, a year later, in 2007. Apparently as time goes by, things are getting better for vinyl, and worse for CD.
As far as the content of the articles, I disagree with both of them. In the first article, obviously this guy is out of touch, as the current vinyl boom is not being driven by us audiophiles, (we are way too few in number, IMHO), but instead is being driven by the college crowd, who, for some reason, (hopefully, because they sound better than CDs!), have determined that vinyl is worth buying, and hence the industry is now producing it in greater numbers than they have for the past decade. And in the second article, personally, I think CDs will remain the industry standard means of distributing music in a non-downloadable format. (At least for the near future, until something cheaper and smaller come along anyway.)
My two cents worth anyway. |
If you hear a well produced/mastered piece of vinyl and the same well produced/mastered piece on CD in a good system, I believe you will have your answer? Is vinyl more troublesome than just popping in a CD and pressing play? Well hell yes but, for audiophiles convenience is not the #1 priority. Sound quality is. There are some really good digital front ends out there but, for me, they can't compete with a high quality vinyl setup. |
I've been into vinyl for two years. I think it's unbeatable (and its advantages most obvious) with any music recorded in which the engineer's aim was to preserve the original acoustic as well. As an orchestral musician for 26 years, I've never heard instruments better resolved. I did the SACD thing, and it was an improvement over CD, and I've also auditioned high-end players, up to 10K extensively. No contest. Maybe someday there will be a digital breakthrough. |
From the second article:
"As for the actual sound quality, the argument is debatable at best, and completely moot at worst. Only the most discerning audiophile can spot the difference on any kind of respectable sound system"
Obviously this guy is not an audiophile, therefore he is unqualified to comment as such. He speaks on a purely superficial, business oriented level, without concern to sound quality. Next time he needs to put down his pen (oops..I mean laptop...cause who uses a pen to write an article anymore? too "inconvenient") and breathe before writing an article out of spite after being scolded by vinyl head DJ's about his decision to switch to digital.
"The medium is the message, and when it comes to being a DJ, the message is digital. Resist if you will, but the future is clear music technology is going to continue to evolve with or without you."
The *medium* is the message? Wow this guy is really lost. I can see why he would prefer digital over vinyl as a medium for DJ's simply due to convenience, but he seems to think that DJs are the only crowd keeping vinyl alive. I find that hard to believe. He takes a shot at audiophiles "holding on" to records, when the whole basis of the article is convenient transportation of his media as a DJ. An unbalanced argument that holds no merit, as far as I'm concerned. |
