Kris: Your statement of "The Berning in my opinion bested the Tenors in every way. Speed, clarity, bass, and of course that magical otl midrange", is quite a reach considering you were listening to two entirely different systems. That is like listening to a system in Montreal and saying did you hear how good those power cords were? It just is not a real valid statement.
Since I have not heard the Berning amps in my reference system, I will not make any statements as to whether they are good or bad. It would be impossible for me to do so with a clear conscience.
The Tenor amplifiers are the finest amplifiers I have ever heard. Nothing I have heard is even close and that is why I took on the line. The Tenor's can handle impedance swings as well as any OTL. What they do not tolerate is what any 75 watt amplifier would have a problem with, inefficient speakers. I have had them on 86 db Eggleston's and they do great within a reasonable limit. If you are looking to drive an 80-86db speaker at over 100db, these amplifiers are not for you. I know at least two people driving Watt Puppy 6's with a pair of Tenor 75's and they could not be happier. The 6's are a 4 ohm speaker that drops to about 2.
Twl: Your statement of "I'll bet it will squash the Tenor amps flatter than a pancake" is quite funny and I will be happy to take that bet anytime you want. How much money you have? :) |
http://gallery.consumerreview.com/audio/gallery/files/TWINSOTL.asp |
Regarding Berning, my dream amp is the Seigfried: a 300b ZH type OTL w/12wpc and dual volume pots to allow direct input. It's killer. And like the ZH270, it will drive low impedances with authority. Talk about perfection, a 300b, pure class A single ended triode, ZH type OTL,with low heat/low power consumption, 20 year tube life, direct input capable, and drives difficult loads and is extremely reliable. And I believe, auto bias adjusting. I think it's around $7500. I'll bet it will squash the Tenor amps flatter than a pancake. Looks really cool, too. BTW, I have the Berning MicroZ OTL(1wpc,pure class A triode) and it is a jewel. I have NOS tubes(Mullard 6201,Sylvania 6sn7wgt) in it and there is no way I could describe the performance level(that you would believe, anyway). You have to audition one of these, with good single driver high-eff. speakers. It will knock your socks off, and you will never think the same way again about low power amps. All the accolades spoken above about the ZH270 also apply to the MicroZOTL. If you choose your speakers to match it, you will never need more amplifier.(Maybe a separate sub/amp if you like that set up). Also, it makes a great bi-amp system with one on each side for inexpensive OTL bi-amping if you like 2 way speakers, or even a crystal clear tweeter amp for multi-amp systems. It even has a headphone output jack. No one that has listened to mine believed it is only a $750 amp. Very highly recommended.(It will also run on a 12vdc battery which completely eliminates power grunge problems and the entire 120vac power supply section, or you can just plug it into the wall if you want, no wall-wart, uses IEC connector so you can use the super duper power cords, too. |
I took my ZH270 to my local high end dealers' for him to listen to. It was sitting on a rack, and a customer came in and saw it and asked the dealer how he could cook anything in such a small microwave! Later, a little kid came in with his parents, saw the 270, and said "Wow! An EZ-bake oven!" True stories, but may also illustrate why the 270 sometimes doesn't seem to "get any respect"--it just doesn't look as impressive as some of the others, with rows and rows of output tubes in each mono-block. |
Definitely include the Berning 270 for OTL's which put out little heat, the 270 puts off very little heat, in fact less than any other OTL I can think of. It also does not use much power from the AC - 100W@idle & 300W max. and increases output power into lower impedences which no other OTL does. This is really breakthrough technology for OTL tube amplifiers.
Regards,
Chris |
Hello Kenl,
I am going to try to answer the last two messages. Kenl, Preference Audio is a brand new company which is from Quebec. I had a chance to listen to these speakers(which are appropriately named "Baby Bears" as they are large 175lbs each) and they were quite nice. They use a Horn Loaded tweeter and a ten inch woofer. They were extremely well built. They are also quite efficient. 93db, so the Berning was really driving them with utterly no strain. I was able to get a card as well. The designers names are Claude, and Guy, and can be reached at (450)349-0021. These speakers were wonderful.
In reference to the question about coverage of Berning products at the show, I doubt you will see any. Though it was by far one of the best sounding rooms in the show, David Berning does not advertise, and therefore most likely will not be picked up by many of the magazines. I did see Audio Asylum in the room taking pictures however, so maybe something will show up there. For any other information including reviews refer to the David Berning website, or Allan@Hellosimplymusic.com Allan would answer any questions you might have. I Hope this has been of help.
Kris |
I think OTL is alive and well but many are put off by the incredable heat these amps put out except for Transcendent and I also think that the low watt/ high efficency lowther type horn speaker crowd is taking over big time. You can't beat the dynamics of this type of system with any normal speakers/ high power amps period. I'll take a Art Audio Px25 (6 watts)amp and a pair of $400 Loth-x speakers over any 40watt and up system just for the musicality and emotional impact. |
Kris,
A bit off-topic. Could you tell me more about Berning at Montreal show? I could not found any coverage about Berning anywhere so far, including commercial and personal show report, zero, nada. I wonder why? I intend to give it a listen and waiting for the opportunity (thanks, Tubegroover!), and would like to know how Berning did at the show. Thanks! Ken |
Kris,
You mentioned the Berning ZH270 running a speaker by Preference Audio. I'd be very interested in learning more about this speaker. I couldn't find anything on Preference Audio thru the Google search engine. Can you provide me with any additional info that would allow me to track them down?
BTW, which speakers are you running with your Berning?
Thanks |
Kris,
I imagine the soundlabs and Tenors wasn't that greatest set up, wolcotts would have been great though! The tenor's are very speaker dependent find a GREAT speaker like Rockports, Kharmas, Piega, Talon, etc.... you have magic but on the wrong speaker it doesn't do them justice. Keep in mind I own BAT tube amps, and my opinion is completely un-bias. Anyone who heard the Tuscany Room at CES knows what I am talking about, something VERY magical happens when the system is right with these amps. |
Hi Tim,
I had a chance to listen to the Tenor's running a pair of Lamhorns(I think)at the Montreal show this weekend. The sound was very nice. In fact I felt the tenor and the ZH270 shared in some qualities. The ZH270 at the show was running a new speaker, made by Preference Audio. The sound was amazing. The Berning in my opinion bested the Tenors in every way. Speed, clarity, bass, and of course that magical otl midrange. Being that I am a Berning owner I may be a bit biased, but there were many other people who felt the same. I have even heard the ZH270 running a pair of full range soundlabs at a friends house with ease, which the Tenors cannot do. In my opinion, the Tenors were wonderful amps, but I cannot justify the incredible cost difference, and the speaker limitations that one encounters with the Tenors.
Happy listening,
Kris Kosiba |
Chris-He is using Verity Audio Parsifal Encores, which isn't a very good synergistically. We switched back and forth from the monitor and the whole speaker and it sounds much more like music with just the monitor which is surprise 8 ohms and with the sub(encore) its 6 or 4 ohms, which isn't great for the amp. He is currently looking for speakers and he and I(mostly he) have been listening to everything we can find. Still nothing amazing, we are looking at everything between 7,000-40,000 its scary how little is actually out there that will work. I use avalon eclipse and think they would mate up well with the amps, but they don't have what he is looking for, no two of us are the same.
~Tim |
Hi Tim, what speakers is your friend using with the Tenors if you don't mind?
Thanks,
Chris |
oh and btw I concur with both Chris and Ken about the Berning. You WILL be amazed at its sound, versatility, price and weight/performance. The hardest part is just getting past the small size. Then you listen, no way man, how'd Berning do that? The zhotl is the latest incarnation of "the little engine that could". |
Tacs-You'd need a lot more then 30k for your dream system, the amps alone are $19,995 per pair. I have spent a good deal of time listening to these amps on a good friends system and they are as good as everyone says, perhaps better. OTL's are incredible, though they have there set backs, for me its cost!! other then that I would have them.
~Tim |
Chris is right on concerning the incredible Berning ZH-270 OTL amp. I bought one used about a month ago and am astounded at it's sonics and capability.
I was a little apprehensive about it's ability to drive my Aerial 7b's. These are not considered tube-friendly, being 86dB, and 6 ohms with a wide impedence swing. But to my delight and surprise, it doesn't seem to have any problem with them. The Berning can drive them to very high levels in my 20 x 21 x 10 room. I have a combined 2-ch/HT system, and use the Berning not only for 2 ch listening, but for HT on my L/R front speakers as well. I know you'll find this hard to believe, but it handled the opening battle scene on the Gladiator dvd better than my EAD Powermaster 2000. And it's got 400 watts x 5 channels compared to the Berning's 70 watts.
I've got a REL sub connected to the high level input of the amp. During the most dynamic sequences on the dvd, the EAD would shut down due to the low impedence of the combined load of the REL & Aerial's. The Berning didn't miss a beat. It delivered all the volume and impact you'd want. Simply incredible.
I'm now considering selling the Aerial's and replacing them with a horn speaker. I'm told there's nothing like a "good" horn to bring realism into the listening room. While the Berning will be overkill from a power standpoint, I feel confident it will deliver sound to die for.
This is not a well known amp. The only reason I was aware of it is because two of my friends each owned one, and kept telling me how great it was. I forgot to mention it's versatility. It's got 2 RCA inputs, and a quality volume control. This allowed me to run both my cdp and front HT channels directly to the amp. It's got more than enough gain for both. I'm now debating on whether I need my Joule Electra preamp.
For a small 10 lb amp to deliver this kind of performance and versatility, not to mention the 10-20 year lifetime on the tubes (it's already got 4 years on them and going strong) it's a miracle product. If you get the chance to pick one up, don't let it pass. You won't regret it. |
Well there have been threads on theses marvels but there doesn't appear to be too much experience. Many steer clear of tube amps because of the hassle, an OTL even more so because of the heat output and the impedance restrictions with perceived reliability issues in hot pursuit.
With the right amp to the right speaker, isn't there always a catch, there really isn't anything NOT to like. To me, at their best with the proper load they are the ultimate, a conjoining of the virtues of both ss and tubes that being speed, clarity, presence with incandescent highs and very well defined controlled bass comparable to the best out there. The key again is amp/speaker interface. |
I think any mid to high-efficiency speakers (i.e. 89db and up) with 8-ohms (nominal) impedance will work just fine with most OTLs. Unfortunately too many of the popular high-end speakers tend to work at much lower (4 or 5) ohms. I bet one reason for this is, most people end up buying high-powered SS amps over OTLs or even SETs. I own a low powered (20 wpc) Graaf GM-20 OTL -- my speaker choice was a pair of Kharma Ceramique 2.2 over more the popular Wilson Watt-Puppy. |
OTL amps are sonically amazing, however alot of people are afraid of them because of reliabilty issues, incompatible speaker matching concerns as well as the massive power consumption the bigger OTL's require and of course tube life. Very few OTL's (almost none of them can handle under 2 ohms for long and certainly not at higher spl's) can be used with a wide range of speakers with large impedence swings however, very, very few can do this and most of the ones that can typically require about as much energy as a small power plant when driving full range speakers at reasonable levels and create enough heat to dismiss the use of a furnace during the winter months :)
There are numerous threads about OTL's here at this sight, try a search for any of the manufacturers names of OTL amps, that may provide better search results. In the paragraph above, I attempted to illustrate a brief summary of why alot of people dismiss the use of a typical OTL because of obvious limitations and operating characteristics. There is however a special OTL amp I know of that can easily tolerate difficult impedence swings, does not require massive amounts of power at idle or at peak for that matter and has a tube life of 4 or 5 times that of a conventional OTL is the David Berning ZH-270.
Many have a misunderstanding of what the ZH270 does to accomplish the difficult task of tolerating impedence swings throughout the frequency spectrum so I will attempt to summerize this highly advanced design as simply as possible:
You see, the ZH270 is the first OTL amp that can properly match the high voltage, low current operating conditions of tubes to the low voltage, high current requirements of most dynamic loudspeakers without the need for audio-output transformers. The 270 does not require the use of banks and banks of tubes to achieve a significant amount of power to the loudspeakers. This is done through the use of RF (radio freq.) which allows the voltage-current characteristics of the tubes from their normal impedence plane to one that is ideal for driving dynamic speakers.
Is everyone still with me??, I hope so :)
Ok, the RF re-mapping occurs through the use of a tiny RF transformer at a carrier freq. of 250kHz. As a result, the audio signal gets a care free ride on the HF wave and is therefore not subjected to any parasitic elements that would otherwise be present. The 270 is DC coupled with the exeception of a small high quality DC blocking capacitor at the input of the amp.
Alright, I'll stop with the technical babble unless anyone else is interested in hearing more about this breakthrough OTL design (there is much more that can be said about this special amp, I'm serious) :) Look around for an OTL that weighs 10lbs and can drive anything, your search will lead you to the same little OTL time and time again. It puts out the most powerful 70 watts with the most drive I have ever heard from any amp.
No other amp sounds like a good OTL, neither SS or traditional tube amps can imitate the incredible sonics of an tube amp without transformers. The OTL sound is in a league of its own in many ways. I highly recommend listening to an OTL amplifier, I think then you will understand why OTL owners are so passionate about their sound.
Best Regards,
Chris
|
Someone about a month or so ago put a thead up on best amps for wilson/watt puppy 6's. In it, lot's was discussed on OTL's. try that search... |
Nothing wrong with them, in principle, just that you have to make damn sure the rest of the equipment you have them hooked up to is impeccable sounding (inc. the recording), otherwise, you might not enjoy the sound. Also, there are not that many speakers whose nominal impedance is around 16 ohms (and thus a good load for an OTL) ... Coincident of course comes to mind.
Joule Electra and Berning and Transcendent are the better makes, Tenor probably the best. A writer in the Absolute Sound went gaga over the Tenor/Rockport display at CES in January.
That's my dream system, really: Tenor amps, Wadia Digital direct to the amp, and Coincidents biggest speakers! But we're talking $30,000 or more! |
