@dsnyder0cnn I believe the ESS ES9028PRO chip includes linear-phase filters (LPFs) as well. While LPFs can introduce pre-ringing artifacts, they maintain phase accuracy across all frequencies. In contrast, minimum-phase filters (MPFs) minimize or eliminate pre-ringing by allowing phase shifts, which can affect phase accuracy. This presents a trade-off between temporal precision and phase linearity. Without empirical data, it’s challenging to determine which effect—pre-ringing or phase distortion—has a more significant impact on perceived sound quality within the limits of human hearing. Have you experimented with LPFs in your listening tests?
Why most $3000 and lower DAC’s sound almost identical
I have a theory as to why all modern DACs essentially sound so similar these days, making it difficult to differentiate between them. IMO modern Delta Sigma chips have homogenized DACs into close to the same sound, making it very easy to take any DAC under $3000 and find it will sound good as another.
What I have discovered is that ladder R2R DACs and fully discrete DSD DAC’s are creating a better soundstage and less digital “glare”. An observation supported by countless others - nothing new. Anything with a Delta Sigma chip-based DAC that does oversampling will have less soundstage and more glare.
Nothing new so far - most of you will likely agree that that the above is a common consensus but here is the new bit, so read on if you are curious…
The dissatisfaction with this sound has led to a band-aid solution where Delta Sigma DAC manufacturers now offer a plethora of filters from sharp to smooth, linear phase to minimum phase. All of this is hand waving nonsense that offers a band aid to what is an absolutely fundamental design issue.
FUNDAMENTAL DESIGN ISSUE:
All oversampling with Delta Sigma offers superb measured spec at very low cost - it’s the logical choice for anyone using Precision test equipment to design a DAC. Typical chip filters use about 60 taps in their filters. They also ALL use Parks-McLellan filter designs (which has best “spec” and the short tap length is required for low-latency and easy processing). The result is a filter that has equiripple through the entire pass band. Mathematically it is a fact that an equiripple in the frequency domain equates to two echoes in the time domain - a pre-echo and post-echo. The “digital glare” heard is because of these echoes, likely the pre-echo is most audible. Our ears brain are processing the echos because unlike noise they are a complete reflection of the entire audio signal - low in level but lasting long enough to be detected by our acuity to locate the source of a sound. It is the same reason our speakers sound and image much better when moved out into the room and away from any close proximity to reflective surfaces. Despite these echoes being 60 db down from the primary signal, my listening sessions have convinced me of their audibility, particularly the echoes caused by the first 2x upsampling for 44.1 Redbook data (less so for higher resolution files).
CONCLUSION
Those who are trying MQA and various filters with typical Delta Sigma DAC’s are using band aids. A growing number of critical listeners have discovered that ladder R2R sounds better than typical DS DACs or, alternatively, that high precision conversion to DSD256 on a computer fed to a true one-bit discrete Delta Sigma converter (no chip) sounds equally great too.
Basically any conversion that eliminates oversampling/upsampling done on a chip is going to have less digital glare and better soundstage because of this absolutely fundamental design flaw in ALL Delta Sigma DAC chips.
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I completely concur with your experience... I used an old NOS dac which is better than many costlier dac with new technology... I tried and failed to upgrade my dac in the price category and the new product was completely artificial and bad sound...Even couple with a good power supply... As you said it well :
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The OP raises a lot of detail that may indeed be relevant. But as is the case so often in audiophilia, the issue is not whether an effect merely exists, but whether it’s significant enough to be audible. IOW, an argument like this is credible only if it establishes quantitative, not merely qualitative, support. I realize that that’s not easy in our field, where even testing methodologies are hotly contested. Having said that, I do offer a counterexample that may add another wrinkle to the issue. I realize that I’m merely making an inference. But it is an inference that is worth considering and is apparently supported by empirical data generated by some of the world’s most respected DAC designers. T+A, one of Europe's ’s most highly regarded manufacturers of high-end DACs (well-known on the continent and now starting to establish a rep in the US) sells sophisticated $5-9000 dual-path DACs that process PCM with Delta-Sigma circuitry, but run DSD through an independent bespoke R2R DAC. The only reason I can think of for this complex design is that T+A engineers confirmed that, within the context of their design methodologies, each topology produced better results with one type of content. I doubt that this solution was adopted for reasons of cost or complexity. That suggests that the DS v. R2R controversy can’t be resolved conclusively by focusing on one, or even just a few, isolated factors. That is, "R2R is better across-the-board than DS in a certain price range." is too reductive, too conclusory, too Wikipedia/ChatGPT, to make me run out and replace my T+A (which, FWIW, is the best four-figure DAC I’ve heard. Check out Stereophile’s R 2500 R review, in which Tom Fine compares a stripped-down embedded version against his $20K reference DAC.) Nonetheless, the OP does raise interesting issues. Interesting enough, in fact, to make me want to go out and further research the topic. Thanks for starting this thread. |
It's important to note that the concept of "natural" sound is subjective and can vary based on individual preferences and experiences. Some listeners may equate naturalness with warmth and smoothness, while others may associate it with accuracy and detail. My preference for a sound that closely mirrors live performances, capturing the true character of instruments like the violin, is a valid and common perspective among audiophiles. |
+1 @curthuff T+A highly qualified seasoned engineers creating solid dependable high value components - consistently performs above their price points |
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