why expensive streamers

@mdalton 

Like others, I cannot explain why you didn’t perceive differences. I already know you can explain why i do - you believe it confirmation bias. I have explored that in depth as I’m quite aware of that tendency in my own line of work so I try pretty hard to not fall into that trap and so I don’t think that is what’s happening. For instance, I’ve listened to a lot of quite pricey gear (amps, DACs, cables) in home which I’ve returned because even if I could perceive a difference - it wasn’t enough to merit opening my wallet. I’ve spent only when I felt it merited it.

I took my streamer (some would say high end - others mid range at >$5k) to my local dealer (who’s now looking to consider the brand). I first auditioned his Simaudio 680 DAC using their built in Mind2 module. Then we played the same track sourced from my streamer (via USB input on the DAC). He was surprised at how much better it was than the onboard module. I was actually hoping to sell my unit and reduce boxes. My bias (strong) was to favor the 680 as DAC w/ streamer. I came away disappointed and kept my streamer and went another direction w/ the DAC.

Yes, bits are bits. The data arrives fully intact. I will not dispute that. But the data is delivered in an analogue wave form with a slope to the rise and fall which affect when those 1 and 0s are registered (jitter). And, noise (not hiss) is carried along for the ride - affecting the same. 

Are differences night and day? Some would say yes. I would say no. But, for those of us pursuing higher performance, they were perceptible - and valuable. I perceive more spatial information (openness and depth as opposed to a flat soundstage). Tonally they are essentially the same. But, depth is significantly better w/ the better streamers. 

By the way, I had also auditioned the Bluesound Node 2i and Lumin mini streamers going into the Marantz reference player/DAC. I heard very little difference between those two unit against each other, and only minor differences between them and the Aurender N100H I owned at the time. Things have progressed since then and I’m comfortable w/ where I’ve spent - and not. I suspect others feel the same.

Perhaps you should ask one of the better companies out there to explain why there are differences. You might come away confident in your current position. Or, you might begin to wonder if you’re missing something. Let us know what you find.

@mdalton 

I didn’t attribute the difference to noise. I suggested that noise may be part of the equation. A subtle, but important difference. I did, however, suggest that the difference may be due to the rise and slope of the analogue waveform representing the 1s and 0s. A “bit perfect” file may be interpreted differently because of these minute variations.

Accordingly, I am skeptical of claims of certain DACs to be “immune” to jitter when the benefits of improved clocking are plainly audible. It turns out the ear is astonishingly sensitive to jitter distortions. Again, the benefits of femto second clocks are well known - and the results plainly audible to even not well trained ears. 

I would modify your metaphor thusly. Put poor quality fuel into any engine - regardless of the quality thereof, and see if it performs to spec.

You believe what you believe - and have provided some anecdotal evidence to support your claim - which I fully accept. I and some others believe differently and have provided anecdotal evidence to support our belief as well.

I would offer this. We’re still early in streaming relative to high performance audio history. We don’t currently know everything. It was originally postulated that CDs would provide “perfect sound forever” and that, because it was digital, all CD players (and transports particularly) would sound the same. That has been shown to be false, though perhaps still disputed by some who fail to do the work. 

Perhaps as an experiment you could try different inputs into your DAC. Try S/PDIF vs USB. Try different cable companies. They are all providing the same bit perfect stream, yet each will sound different. Those differences are measurable, though not necessarily quantifiable. They may not be massive differences, but they exist. This is because digital data is transmitted in an analogue wave form and cable geometry influences that transmission and introduces jitter.

If you struggle with this test - then let’s exaggerate it. Try an analogue RCA cable in lieu of a 75 ohm digital cable for your S/PDIF connection. It will likely sound thin and cast a steely glare over everything, all while transmitting a bit perfect file. Jitter.

Further, noise may not be primary, but it is an issue. All cables are antennas of some sort - both transmitter and receiver. Some are better insulated against this, but all are antennas of some sort. Computers tend to be noisy w/ EMF and RFI emissions from cheap power supplies and lots of other operating components not specific to audio. That’s why dedicated streamers with more attention placed on power supplies, etc. tend to outperform even high end computers. For instance, I had a souped up Mac mini dedicated as a streamer/server. 16 GB ram, solid state drives and everything not related to my music library turned off. That was its only function. It was handily outperformed by a modest streamer. Call me a fool or deluded if you wish. I wouldn’t go back to it.

@mdalton 

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Perhaps it’s not jitter that makes the difference I’m hearing, but, a difference (for the better) exists. And, it’s been a worthwhile pursuit for me and many others. Nevertheless, I would also politely suggest that the notion that jitter is virtually nonexistent in any decent streamer is incorrect. You might argue if it’s audible - but jitter exists and the benefits of better clocks in both streamers and in DACs, or in outboard clocks - is plainly audible. Plainly. The only thing these better clocks are doing is reducing that timing error - jitter. 

So - we disagree. No harm.  My best to you. Moving on.

We do live in a post-truth world. But you also did not show me factual information of virtually no jitter. You showed me factual information of little jitter - two different things. And, I’ve read scientific studies that show the ear is sensitive to smaller timing effects than you claim. So, I, right or wrongly, can at least wonder if jitter indeed may be an effect. Regardless, I’m completely open to the differences not being jitter - but I also took out the effects on upsampling and processing in my auditions that you believe are those causes. In my initial auditions, I engaged neither. (Full disclosure - I do now use an upsampler and processor to great effect in my system so I acknowledge those potential benefits.) I’ve also given you rationale (but still anecdotal) why I don’t think I’m so easily duped by confirmation bias as I’ve rejected many things upon audition that didn’t provide the performance promised. I don’t part with money so easily.

I will close with this. In addition to being in a post-truth world, we are living in a post civilized world where people on forums not only disagree, but do so with verbal hostility,  arrogance and superiority. As I don’t believe my responses merited this, so your closing rings particularly hollow.