Loudspeakers do distort the most however modern drivers with symmetrical magnet systems and have distortion that is magnitudes lower any mass market driver. Also of note is that driver distortion is primarily 2nd harmonic which is far less objectionable than higher order odd harmonic. In my system the digital playback was for the longest time the limiting factor as all of the speakers I have had for the last 20 years have been types with vanishingly low distortion. When the system is up to par the quality of the source is paramount. When there are lots of compromised component choices you are just shuffling cards around.
In reality this is the oldest argument there is but with a fresh twist. You can not tell crap when its played through a poor setup. |
@rodman99999
Elitists are so tedious. |
"why a 75 dollar blue ray smokes all 2k CD players and any turntable???"
This might be true, if digitally connected a mediocre multichannel receiver with really bad phono-in.
A "75 dollar blue ray " is some cheap mechanic - which mainly works or does not - and a DAC with powersupply.
The DAC chip will convert internally to 1 or 4 bit, because that is what cheap Delta-Sigma DAC chips fo. This does not make too much damage, given that the tiny tiny powersupply is not giving consistent support allowing for a proper tonality.
The better mastering of the Blue Ray Disk might sound better than the loudnesswar mastered CDs OLSCHOOL usually listens to, though.
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I have more than a dozen recordings, originally done before digital mastering, on both vinyl and digital. While there are real differences between them, I find neither to be superior. There are things I like about each that are better than the other, and none of them surpass the sheer enjoyment of the music itself.
I still have the first LP I ever bought, while in high school back in 1968. I have many LPs that will never make it to digital. But for newbies, vinyl is just not cost effective.
I run a $200 Tascam CD player with an optical link to a good DAC. Digital data is reliably transported. That's why we like it. The difference is all in the DAC. All CD and DVD players have one built-in, but they are typically pretty cheap. They sound OK, but taking a direct digital feed from a cheap player to a good DAC will give you very happy results. |
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Years ago I had a Pioneer blue ray player which was supposed to be good. The picture was good but when I hooked it up yo my audio system, it sounded terrible. |
Back in 80s, I sold technics, JVC, and panasonic CD's. At the time, they all sounded the same. They were all priced the same. I held off purchasing one to the late 80s. This was around the time, I first heard what HiFi really sounded like - It was a tube Telefunken system imported from Germany. It was unlike anything I had ever heard in the Stereo shop. A warm lush wide soundstage that immersed around my ears. It was magical. I began my CD quest and bought a Philips CD-880. Many told me I was insane for paying $1000+ for a CD player as they all sounded the same. I never heard it before buying it. Well many can tell you, it does not sound like the cheap $300 CD players of that era. It is a natural sound with clarity. I kept it for 20 years and sold it when the Denon SACD/DVD entered my mix. Yes 5.1 audio like DTS sounded amazing and was cool but like most things, it was a fad. A couple of years later, I really missed that Philipps & bought a used one.
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I am a bit confused why this is being discussed at length. Are speakers the weakest link (theoretically) in the chain. Uh, yes. Does that mean that nothing else matters? Only to someone with a tin ear. If they are happy, I am good with them. But why the hell would they be on Audiogon? There is some equipment that I personally like that is barely "good enough" to be on Audiogon (not my opinion; I have looked for it here and it ain't around much - and not because people buy it and keep it forever.) So why the long thread? It started on a total BS premise. Everything matters, but speakers are the final and weakest link. |
Hello,
A $300 DAC cannot beat a $2000 DAC let alone a more expensive one. Their are only a handful of companies that make the SACD transports. PSAudio, and Ayre both used Oppo in really expensive players. In the end it was their amazing DACs. All of the components are important usually with a weak link in the system. One that I was not expecting was the power protector. I was using pretty high end Furman power conditioners. I tried the Puritan PSM-136 and PSM-156. Both were leaps ahead of the Furman products that cost the same. Everyone says start with the speakers. I say if you can afford it start with the outlet on the wall. I do think it’s amazing how much better a $29 DVD player sounds on a good DAC and even better on a really good DAC. Most of us cannot afford our end game speaker until the end of a game. I just listened to a pair of active KEF speakers on a blu node streamer total cost $1000 Very amazing. Most people should start this way since just about every TT listener is streaming. |
Another of the weekly thought provoking posts for us audio fools to question what it is that we are doing.
The devil has taken us off the path yet again from reaching total fulfillment of life on this earth. |
Is that envy on your part @zerobias? Rodmann maybe appreciates the finer things in life (as do I) and apparently you do not. Be it wine, food travel or hifi, why would you resent this? Unless you are a mean spirited spendthrift. You live your way, I live mine and I never consider myself better or superior, I just consider myself fortunate and truly blessed to be able to enjoy some of the more expensive things in life. I did not start out this way, 40 years of work and more work and now I am reaping the rewards
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Everyone's ears are different. I respect your opinion, but I can hear a difference by trading CD players, dvd players, blue ray players, pre amps, DACs. Power amps, and speaker cables. I will not spend alot of money, but will try to do the best for my budget.
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Before we all get carried away with just how good a $2k or $3k DAC might be, it might be worth asking what happens to all of this superiority when the lights are turned off and it's compared to a $5 one?
If you fancy a fancy DAC then you should buy it, but buy it for its boutique value.
Just let's not kid ourselves over any perceived sonic advantages. |
As a wealthy person with excellent taste, I feel that spending big bucks on everything I like is very important. An example is my new streamer (a "bluesound" something or other), which cost, wait for it, over 500 bucks! What I get for that is great sound and another tiny blue light (it has lighted stuff on top also, virtual "frosting on the cake")...and, after all, I'm worth it! |
Whatever happened to listening for ones self? I prefer not to be led but to hear things for myself.
As do many afflicted by auditory hallucination. "I know what I hear!" There is science-based treatment available for those willing or, maybe more importantly, anyone at all even interested... Oh, let us count the vested financial interests and conflicts of interest among those posting on these forums, not to mention the ego-driven sunk-cost biases that will NEVER be given up, especially at the "high end" - among other things, they simply cost WAY too much to squander for the sake of science. "Please don’t threaten my religion." OK - I get it! In the end, everyone has a right to their expensive jewelry and adornments. Let the attacks on the "naysayer’s" systems, hearing, sophistication, etc. commence - like koi to food pellets in a fish pond. Alas, this will never change... |
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Typical arrogance - shock and awe...
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Nobody says "alas" anymore. |
Oleschool, thanks for your post . You have a nice system BTW . I think talking/ believing in absolutes is a mistake , as you pointed out by posting the other gentleman’s opinion . I found out first hand how poor my “ Old Memories “ are by picking up a pair of JBL 4312’s to relive my youth . After trying 5 different amps and being less than satisfied, they reside in the closet . And sitting on top of them is an OPPO 105D in pristine condition , that to me doesn’t sound that great . I have a Musical Fidelity transport , a modded Thorens TT, and a Schiit Yiggy DAC . Sometimes digital sounds better, sometimes vinyl . My friend was an Acoustic Zen dealer and has a load of their cables as well as a upgraded pair of Adagio’s . The Adagio’s are “ In the closet “, as he prefers his Dali’s . We all like what we like , even when they’re both nice . As far as “ Skinny Wire “, I run Morrow , having previously used Anti-Cables . I’m definitely cost driven , as I have a wife and other hobbies . One of your points that I appreciate is your history of trying numerous components and still totally open to experimenting. The members that are in this thread have some very good advise without being absolute or snobbish. I’m currently running a SEP amp and am pining for a Benchmark Amp , so go figure . 🤪 Happy listening and best wishes, Mike B. And yes I have a Buell .
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To say the least, I am quit skeptical of the ridicules prices now being tagged on some of audio's supposed hi end components and products, but, without doubt, I know that all components, cables and other audio products (regardless of price) do not sound the same as their counter parts.
I have three CD players that each have their own sound and level of performance. The one that, hands down, sounds/sounded the best and does/did better with large, complex musical and vocal passages, is the one I've had the most trouble with and has recently stopped reading discs. The old stand-by Dennon (while not quit on sonic par with the others) does sound good and is the one that just keeps going, has never given me a problem and has no trouble reading, even my less than perfect discs.
I have also had the same experience with amps, pre amps, cables, etc. and not always did I get the best performance out of the one that cost the most. The idea that someone with a $10K set of speakers would need a $25,000 amp $10K or 20K in cables and a $10K power conditioner, to make them sound good, seems like a bit of a lark to me, but to each their own.
We all have different likes, needs and expectations of what, in our particular environment, satisfies our musical enjoyment.
For me, it is (with a little trial and error, patience and at a reasonable cost) what works best with my Maggies, to make the music I like sound good.....Jim
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"We all have different likes, needs and expectations of what, in our particular environment, satisfies our musical enjoyment." Exactly! And; it’s the dedication to the pursuit of that, "musical enjoyment", that translates into what one is willing to spend. Speaking for myself; I don’t spend my money on (what some consider) ancillaries to make my main components, "sound good". I do whatever I do, to bring out their best. It's been my experience; from the stylus (or little, jitterless digits), to the eardrum- everything matters!
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aeschwartz
As I stated, I posted a pic of my Vpi playing an album on a bands fan site (70s progressive rock) My point of the pic was showing an lp spinning vintage progressive rock.His response was sarcastic stating "wow it sounds sooo much better then a cd" .I responded basically saying I also have a solid digital front end but prefer analogue sound .His response was his version of a lesson for me telling me I was wasting money on my system and his 500.00 mission speakers and blue ray was equal or better. I responded saying digital has benefits in many cases including on paper ,but I still prefer a solid analogue frontend although it can get expensive.I do not in any way believe a 75.00 blue ray smokes a solid dac cd front end ,and still prefer my analogue for the sound I prefer. |
He's correct in his assessment that the biggest challenge anymore is the speaker not the DAC or amplifier etc.. which have exponentially less distortion than speakers. Most DACs and amps if they measure reasonably well are indistinguishable in blind tests.
^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you are correct placing speakers as <<THE critical component>> in any system..
Followed by amp
then cd player
then cables/speaker wires.
I am glad to see speakers finally take center stage as <<most significant influence>> in a high fidelity system.
ITS ABOUT TIME
This hypothesis can be easily proven to be true. |
Work from and learn from your own ears. If you are serious about the music, this is the only authentic approach, much of the rest is just a possibility. Also, learn to relax your mind and truly focus, when listening, which no one seems to want to discuss. Troubling and obsessing over stereo equipment will rob you of your music. Your state of mind when listening is MORE IMPORTANT than your componentry.
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