Dear Lewm: I was and am a fan for Ortofon cartridges and yes the MC 2000 is a hiden gem with a quality levbl performance to spread every where.
Right now I'm exploring in my system another vintage ( non Ortofon. ) MC cartridge that I bought several years ago and that I had it in new condition and never touched, I will report on it when I be sure can be of interest to the audio community but right now I like it .
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul,
I'm intrigued by the Astatic and Glanz cartridges. Have you (or any other in here) discovered which current issue cartridges have adopted the technology, design and/or patent of the Astatic and Glanz? MF=Moving Flux, correct? Nagaoka says Moving Permalloy, could be just rebranding. The cartridge housing shape (very squarish) is similar too.
Cheers. |
Dear diamond ears: Nagaoka is a very older cartridge manufacturar that IMHO always works with is own cartridge/motor principles.
I never cared on which other cartridge manufacturer took the Moving Flux principle but now that you mentioned that one was Micro Seiki whom name it Vartiable Flux, I have two samples ( I think ) some where and the cartridge body design is similar to Astatic ones but if I remember they did not use plastic but metal material in its construction and I remember that the MS are good performers. Years ago I think I mentioned some where in this thread.
Regards and enjoy the music, R.
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Hi all, I can't match the temperament and passion of some Mexican but also don't like exaggerations . The linguistic kinds that is. Those who do usually ,uh, use astronomical terms to express their valuation. I would never use the expression ''stellar performer'' for any MM cart whatever. If one is allowed to praise other kinds in the MM thread I would eventual use this expression for the FR -7 fz. I was advised 10 years or so ago by Dertonarm and Syntax to try those ''old-fashioned kinds'' but my (esthetical) prejudice prevent me to do so. Only thanks to my comrade Don who intruduced me to the Japanese market made this possible. Mainly because of their prices or, to put it otherwise, because of their exchange rate in comparison to our money. However if Raul used ,say, the expression ''the best MM cart'' I would agree with him reg. this rare JVC X-1 ,mk 2. BTW he was the first who mentioned this cart somewhere in his thread while I, despite my age, somhow remembered the name. So thanks to Raul as well Don's introduction i was lightning fast to grab one on the so called ''Jauce site''. I hope this short post will cause ''some disputes'' because I like those. I intend to preserve my arguments for later. Aka ''ex ante''. |
Dear nandric: you have good memory on the JVC X-1 MK2 because was you ( thank's again. ) whom bought it for me ( MK2 NOS JVC stylus replacement. ) in Europe with out knowing what in a " hell " was the JVC X-1.
Now, when you own several great cartridges and one has a diferent and higher quality performance, like the Astatic MF-2500, you can choose whatever adjective you want: stellar, outstanding, fabulous, marvelous, etc . I choosed " stellar " because it belongs to a unique and diferent " league ". I own or owned some: fabulous, outstanding, etc. cartridges but IMHO " stellar " MM is the adjective that the 2500 deserves, at least till today.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Raul, I expected ''some dispute'' but obviously those Mexican's can be also sportmanslike, Now about your passion. Who would believe that you with all those (+100) carts which you bought by yourself, you would ask your (forum) friends to buy additional carts for you? I totally forget that I was one of those forum friends but do remember this JVC X1-mk2 from a different context. Now about my ''champion'' the FR-7 fz (aka ''the stellar performer''). There is a thread called ''short cut'' in which some SPU's are compared with FR-7 fz and Koetsu Coral stone. 4 friends deed the comparison and, to be short, two of them proclaimed Koetsu and two other the FZ as the winnar of this (short) contest. This was the first time in my life that I had pity with my friend Syntax. He is the proud owner of this Koetsu but the one with diamond cantilever. My pity is based on the price dfference between the two contenders. My modesty does not allow mentioning the price which I paid for my FZ. What is more my sample is provided with an boron cantilever + Van den Hul (aka Gyger) stylus by the master himself (with his inscription) such that the only (critical) remark by J. Carr namely the lack of high freuency ''extension'' is corrected. If those 4 friends have had my sample I am sure that my fz would win the competition.. Well certainly ''stellar'' considering the price (grin). |
Dear nandric: I can't dispute about your modified 7 fz because I owned in original shape where I agree with JC about. The cartridge is a good cartridge but IMHO both frequency extremes are only " so, so " and nothing to " die for ".
I posted here that if we want a real FR winner we need to listen the MCX-5 that was not designed by the " master " but for engineers that work in FR and that latter founded Entré. This MCX-5 is the one in FR quality level performance.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
@nandric does that mean FR-7 fz surpassed your Miyabi Standard?
I’m glad that top contributers are back after a long break. Good start of 2016. Happy New Year! |
Hi Chakster, You are very kind but I think that you confused my 'top'' carts with their owner. There is this ''compassion''' like by Raul which expalains the amount of his carts and there is the ''obssesion'' which explains the amount of carts of the same producer. Say like our Dgob with his Glanz obssesion. My own obssesion at preseent is about those FR- 7 kinds. I started with the FR-7 and ''evolved'' via the ''f'', the ''fc'' and the 702 to the ''fz''. I made some (linguistic) cuts by my reference to the thread which I called ''short cut'' instead of ''short shoot out'' in which a more informative and ''true'' information can be found then in ''short opinion'' of Raul. He still owns the 702 which is in my opinion inferiour in comparison witht the fz. The Mexican knows much and has even better hearing but is not omnipotent. Now to answer your question I need to add some more ''top carts'' in order to underline the quality of my ''stellar FZ''. Next to Miyabi there are: Magic diamond, Benz LP S, Shiraz, Kiseki Gold- and Silver spot , Ortofon MC 2000 and some more (grin). My comrad Don is also ''infected'' with the FR-7 series disease such that we collectivly decided to try also those ''cantilever-less'' Ikeda's. His reason is his beloved Decca and my my beloved fz.
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My dear comrade Nandric,
This ''infection'' that you are spreading is getting expensive! (grin) This all began innocently enough with those M/M's. It was and still is fun to return to those old cartridges from our youth. Many of those I lusted after but could not afford at the time. Life is strange. We should be born rich, proceed through life spending it, and then struggle to have sufficient finances as we become old. This is just the opposite as how life is. It is not possible for you and I to live long enough to wear out even one stylus tip from our beloved harem members of cartridges. We will be more than likely be replacing those cantilevers and stylus's due to accidents created by our feeble, shaking, weak hands and our poor eyesight! (grin) Regards,
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My dear comrade Don, I need to first correct the error I made by my previous post. The ''compassion'' attributed to Raul should be read as ''passion''. I want to prevent sarcastic comment of our comrade Lewm about my linguistic capabilities. I have no clear idea what you mean by ''rich'' but you own + 70 carts or so. However you also imply by your mentioning of our age how we can save some money . Because we can't wear off any of our styli we don't need to worry about re-tips which become pretty expensive lately. Such saved money we can use for our further carts aquisitions (grin). |
Dear nandric: For good reasons I have not any more the 702. Normally I don't like to stay sticked with one or two cartridges . I like to learn and one way to do it is: listen, listen, listen and listen to diferent cartridges ( today/vintage ) and diferent audio systems.
The series 7 is not for me. Please do a learning exersice: take any of your stand alone cartridges and connect to the headshell with the oldest wires you can have on hand, listen it and then change those headshell wires for the best ( today ) you have on hand. Certainly will be a " huge " diference in the quality level sound performance in the side of the newest headshell wires ( at least this is what happen in my experiences always. ).
Well the 7's has a very old internally wires and that's what you " like " along what that integrated headshell makes not for the better but the other way around. Years ago I like those kind of distortions, not any more.
Anyway, I'm sure that like me you will learn too or : maybe not?. In the mean time enjoy it.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul,
I have found in many cases that the older headshell wires are better. I believe that it is the quality of the copper that make a difference, and the older copper is more pure.
This is also true of speaker cables. Many have rediscovered old Western Electric pure copper cable and are using them with excellent results as speaker wire.
I have performed similar tests and agree that the older copper always sounds better. So maybe the wires your are using are more esoteric in mixture than pure copper and that is the difference that you hear?
Norman |
Dear Raul, We all compare carts with each other and like some more then the other. There is no way to compare ''A versus X'' because x is a variable which only mark the place where a name must be put in order to get a (complete) sentence. From those comparisons we make conclusions which is a logical ordening. That is to say : a bettter then b, b better than c, etc. Aka R (a,b, c....n). But with your ''learning curve'' (do you remember?) you actually suggest that your ''learning'' is somehow better than my. This imply that I need to learn harder or better to reach your ''level of learning''. Your argument in casu (aka ''FR-7 integrated'') is based on the assumption about the kind and state of wire inside those (type of) carts. What about silver wire? Kondo-san used by preference the ''old kind'' , say, 100 years old silver from Italy (grin). I myself was never obssesed with any wire whatever and am convinced that this myth is invented by P&R people. I know that copper sound different than silver but , as we are used to say ''it depends''. As with our usual practice we ''move on''. But this FR-7 fz caused my curiosity about those ''cantilever-less' Ikeda's such that I already bought one. I expect to get the cart next week. So, as you can see, my learning process continues. We may agree about some but the neccessary condition is that we own the same cart(s). Well ''the same cart'' is not as easy as it looks. You own 100 + and I ''only'' about 40. Regards, |
Dear Raul, To add to my arguments regarding the ''wire'' I also want to put forward the difference between ''intonation'' or ''timbre'' and ''distortion''. Your ''general argument'' is about ''distortions'' which to my mind is not very convincing. The cart producers are assumed to ''tune'' their carts. Well ''tuning'' is to my mind ''adjusting'' the timbre of the cart to designer satisfaction or his own prefrence. I have no idea if and how ''distortion'' is involved by this practice. But I must admit that ''timbre'' which we all can hear is not easy to describe. However I think that the ''timbre'' is what we like or not and this is to my mind different from ''distortions'' which you use as argument. |
Dear normansizemore: What look I for any type ( headshell wires, tonearm internal wire, IC, speaker ones, etc. ) of wire/cable for my system?: a dead neutral cable and ( please ) I don't want to have a dialogue here about neutrality, maybe only that characteristic needs a dedicated thread.
Normally I use silver or silver/cooper blended cables, even some of my power cables.
I can open a cable store with all my tested cables through so many audio years. I can tell you ( for example ) that I own over 400 sets of headshell wires.
Now, each one of us have diferent audio/music sound priorities and this is what many times makes the diference and is the main issue on audio dialogues.
At the end the important subject ( for many and diferent reasons. ) is to listen what we like.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear nandric: What I know is that you and me are in diferent treads on that learning curve/stair. ""
I myself was never obssesed with any wire whatever and am convinced that this myth is invented by P&R people. "" and you gave you an answer that you are wrong with that statement:
"""
I know that copper sound different than silver """", so needs no additional coment from my part.
"""
Kondo-san used by preference the ''old kind'' , say, 100 years old silver from Italy... """
with all my respect : who was Kondo-san?, japanese people are very skillful but......????????
Do you know when bought I my Ikeda ( no cantilever ) cartridge sampler?. I already posted here and in other threads ( years ago ) my opinion about. You are starting with, we will see what the time can tell you on that cartridge.
Regards and enjoy the music, R.
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Raul,
I agree with you. Maybe I should sample of silver wires? I have always used only copper.
When I first read this post back in 2008, I began experimenting with many different MM cartridges. Then I started changing the loads to find where each one sounded best. That is when I realized that these were wonderful hidden gems.
I wanted to say thank you because I never would have went back to using MM cartridges without your detailed post.
Norman
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I guess we all should discard our Marantz's, McIntosh's, and Dynaco amps because of all that old bad sounding wire that is in those transformers! Surprising that Electrical Engineers (certified, not so called self taught), feel that it is this old wire ( aged), in these transformers that are the reason for their lifelike presentations. But what the hell do Electrical Engineers know about wire??? They need to spend time with our resident expert and be educated. Regards, |
I agree with Raul, it’s boring to stick to one or two cartridges, so many things to try... and to learn things about analog playback is so interesting (to pay the bills also). My belowed Glanz MFG-31L is on ebay auction ending today. It’s a spare one in stunning condition for those who knows. This obscure Glanz is even cheaper than Astatic MF200 with broken tip someone offering at the same time. Glanz 31L is here: http://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/331745458656 |
Dear Raul, ''Who is Kondo san?'' Well the founder and designer by Audio Note. For some reasons he was very fond of silver. In our discussion we like to refer to some ''authority'' in order to strenghten our arguments. For a long time ''veritas et auctoritas'' (the truth and authority) were confused with each other. Aristoteles was believed for 2000 years in Europe because of his authority. But then Galileo proved him wrong in physics and Frege in logic. At present there are no authorities regarding the truth. All theories are regarded as hypothetical and refutable in priciple. Your ''argument'' that you ''know better'' is based on your assumed authority. But our valuation of our gear is based on ''value judgments'' which are not truth-functional. You never deny our ''right'' to like what we want. That is why we call those judments ''subjective''. However you also claim to be ''objective'' in technical or scentific sense. But when you refer to ''distortions'' which are of physical nature you never mention which kind, how those can be measured /tested, etc. This would be helpful because that is the practice by scientific experiments. The collegues are assumed to be able to check those experiments and hopful get the same results. Regards,
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Nandric > I myself was never obssesed with any wire whatever and am convinced that this myth is invented by P&R people.
Raul Ruegas >> and you gave you an answer that you are wrong with that statement
Raul,
It is nice to see someone who believes in objectivity and science finally stand against these philistines. Could you please point me to a peer reviewed engineering journal or a well supervised blind test that supports the implied claims about (audible) wire differences? Those of us that wrap ourselves on the mantle of science to easily dismiss others shall not eschew science's methods to prove our obvious points/claims (especially those points/claims we love to make in declarative statements).
Raul GS.
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Dear Nandric,
The thread that compares SPUs, FRs and Koetsu is called "shootout" ... not shortcut and I'm the author and owner of the SPU's and FR's used in that short review. Glad you read it and that it meant something to you. I never meant t to be a comprehensive review and I mentioned it in the review itself. I was one of those that preferred the Koetsu Coralstone and bought one as a result of that test. I have subsequently also upgraded to a diamond cantilever version of the Koetsu Coralstone. I'm sure your upgraded FR7z is a "stellar" performer. I'm certainly keeping my FR7fz and looking for a FR7fc/MC702 to compare. Have seen FR MCX-5 but the person selling it (Tommy Cheuk of TopClass Audio) says it's not in the same league as FR7 series. But I do give Raul respect for his knowledge and will try the MCX5. If your looking for a cartridge to compete with the FR7fz, I would recommend the Koetsu Stone series, preferably with diamond cantilever. Yes, it's more expensive that the vintage FR7fz but it's not as expensive as you think (if you know where to look). But it's also unfair to compare a new cartridge versus a 30 year old used cartridge. But if you compare the stone bodied Koetsus with the top of the range, Airtights, Ortofons, Lyras etc then I think the Koetsu is fair value and very competitive. That said, the FR7fz are the best value MC carts in my collection for sure. BTW, I have a FR7f available, if anyone is interested. |
Raul,
Glad to see that you're now active again in AudiogoN. Happy New Year!
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grifitthds,
You make a good point. Makes me think about companies like Shindo Labs, who's entire audio line is built up from vintage conductors, transformers, caps, etc.
And with my personal experience, I do like the sound of old gear. Something about it. Might just be my 'what I am used too', but I do think that the old Mac's, Sansui's, marantz, Dynaco, Eico, Hadley, etal, have a special sonic character because of their transformers and the quality of the conductors and parts they were built with. I really wish I had hung on to my old Dynaco's.. Hindsight. =|
I will however take Raul's recommendation and try some new silver/copper cartridges wires. Who knows?
Norman |
So we have another Raul on the message board, i'm a bit confused why you guys ignoring some nice features offered in this new upgraded version of the forum, such as: "quote" button above the window where you're typing your text. Simply select quote you want to use and push the " button Or simply type @ if you want to address your message to some person, you will be surprised that nicknames pop up automaticly when you just type @ ... @rauliruegas @rgs Also members can edit posts after publishing, that's nice All these new features makes reading much more enjoyable for visitors and members. Cheers! |
chakster,
Yes, many nice improvements but still one missing. It would be great if pictures could be posted. Sometimes it is hard to describe something and having a picture makes it so much more understandable. Perhaps the next improvement cycle will be the charm but much thanks need to go the caretakers of this forum. Thankless job I am sure so I do tip my hat to those responsible. |
ddriveman,
I also read that 'shootout' and found it quite informative. I honestly do not remember on what forum it was posted on but I sure would like to re-read it again. I had at the time, the FR-7. After that read, I bought a NOS FR-7fz. What an absolutely amazing cartridge that 'fz' is. I was so impressed with it and what Ikeda (the designer), creates, that I have bought a Ikeda 9C. Their is magic in that air core design when coupled with those Anico magnets. The Ikeda 9C will find very good company with my London Decca Jubilee! I think the term in Japanese, translated into English is "Happy Family''! (grin) Regards,
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normansizemore,
I wish I had a dollar for every time I have head that statement, "I wish I had kept my Dynaco's". It's the "Sansui" that I miss! Those old amps are almost 'spellbinding' in how they capture your senses! Regards, |
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Dear ddriveman, I am sorry for the wrong ''quote'' but I was not able , like my comrad Don, to find your ''shootout'' so I produced my own ''short cut'' instead. But I remembered the title and corrected my error in my next post. Anyway I was very much impressed by your ''collective testing'' and your own writing. As I also ''confessed'' I was informed about this FR-7 series 10 years (?) ago by my friends Dertonarm and Syntax but was skeptical about the ''right'' geometry with the integrated headshell. What is more Dertonarm ,who swears for years by his FR-7 samples, also mentioned that the effective lenght is not equal by the members of this series. I should follow his and Syntax's advice but considering the number of advices from my beloved forum co-members I needed to make my own choices. As the Dutch say ''better late tan never'' I am glad to have discovered those ''precious'' at last and by myself. My dear comrad Don participated in this ''adventure'' in many ways so similar to your own ''collective effort'' we expanded our to the other Ikeda kinds. My MC 9 mk 2 is underway from Idaho where my ''brother in hobby'' Don lives. As is the case by other members we like to see the confirmation for our choices from others. In this sense I am thankful for your ''shoot-out''. Regards, |
Hi rgs, I assume that your are a novice in our forum considering the number of your contributions? If so welcome to our ''brotherhood'' I am not sure if I understand your post in which you qoute one of my statements and also ''some'' made by Raul. I am confused because you used the expression ''declarative statement'' while I used the expression ''value judgment''. The later are not truth functional as I stated while the former are. Provided you mean the same as ''indicative statements'' which can be true ot false. To put it orhterwise you used a criptic way to express your opinion. My context was ''truth vs authority'' and I try to explain the diffrence. BTW Raul's reading (aka deduction) from my statement that I can hear the difference between copper and silver wire is obviously wrong. There is no (logical) possibility to deduce from my statement that I prefer one above the other. Besides I added ''it depends'' with implicite reference to the so called (system) ''synergism''. BTW there are many who don't like ''silver sound'' and this probably also''depends '' from something or other. Regards, |
Dear normansizemore: You are welcome.
For me was and is a surprise that exist a real alternative to MC cartridges, too.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear griffithds: """
I guess we all should discard our Marantz's, McIntosh's, and Dynaco amps """
I agree with you on this sentence, good.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear nandric: Yes, I could be wrong so I appreaciate your explanation about: you posted: """
with any wire whatever and am convinced that this myth is invented """""
so for you is only a myth that was/is invented.
in the same post you said:
"""
I know that copper sound different than silver """
I would like to know what do you mean with those statements?
is still a myth for you or you know but can't hear it? opr what?
Btw, any one knows who was Kondo-san. Siome japanese audio manufacturers like to surround they products with " mystic and mysteries " and Knondo was a good example. Sugano-san was other: I can remember at the began of the Koetsu cartridges no one ( included the japaneses. ) knew any single spec on the Koetsu cartridge, not even the VTF. In those old time ( even the professional reviewers ) were " inventing " the VTF on those cartridges and every one used diferent VTF. That was a myster AND THAT'S ALL
Regards and enjoy the music, R.
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Dear ddriveman: Happy new year for you and your family too!
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Raul, I will try to explain the wire myth this way. Kondo's prices were much more disturbing than his belief in old silver. But his old silver myth was invented to justify his prices. That is what I meant with wire myth invention by P&R people. The fact that I can hear diffrence between copper and silver wire is similar to the fact that I can see the difference between an elephant and a lion. From the first fact you can conclude that I am not deaf from the other that I am not blind. This information is actually entailed in both statements such that no logical deduction is needed. Except of course when one is searching for linguistic unicorns or flying horses like Pegasus to make his critical remarks. Regards, |
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Dear Raul,
Then would you also agree that we should discard all those old M/M cartridges that are surely full of the same old and bad sounding wire that is wrapped around their coils? Yes, the very ones that you have been raving about since the start of this thread! Regards, |
Dear tubed1: Reading over the link seems to me that there is nothing new in the cartridge design that other cartridge manufacturers not did/do it.
Maybe the more atractive characteristic be its price if the quality level performance is higher that the cartridge competition inside its price range. Sooner or latter we all can be informed by its owners or maybe a audio magazyne review.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear griffithds: I don't discard any cartridge because we have not alternative to listen to. In the other side you can't compare the kind and length of the wire used in the cartridge coils against an amplifier.
Please read again my post to you where I said that I agree only with that " sentence ". I don't posted about wires ?????
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear nandric: Ok, you are not deaf: good!. That's all about.
Regards and enoy the music, R. |
Raul,
Quote: ""In the other side you can’t compare the kind and length of the wire used in the cartridge coils against an amplifier.""
Why not? Wire is wire! Only difference between the wire in coils and the wire in amps is the diameter. Same goes for those old head shell leads. Nothing different other than the diameter. You stated that this old wire, (based on your 400 test examples of head shell leads), is not good. Is this just your ’opinion’ or do you have something you care to share with us to support this statement because articles written by actual Electrical Engineers, do not agree with what you have stated. The difference being, they have test results that have been verified through repeated lab testing. Their statements are based on Scientific Technics. Is this statement just ’your opinion’ or do you have something a little more concrete? You see Raul, ’opinions’ are something everyone has, so to state your ’opinions’ as if it is some kind fact, is not helpful in our quest to eliminate ’voodoo’ audio!
Quote: " Please read again my post to you where I said that I agree only with that " sentence ". I don’t posted about wires ?????"
A ’sentence’ begins with a capital letter and ends with a period. My ’sentence’ that you answered contained a question in regards to wires. So are you saying you only directed you answer to ’part’ of the sentence? The first part of the sentence and no answer to the second part of the sentence? Then why do you think those old amps should be discarded. Maybe you did you not read my ’entire’ sentence? Regards,
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Nandric,
Your assumptions are both correct and incorrect. I joined Audiogon in its early yrs, but never posted. In December I needed to get some info regarding the Victor TTs, and when I tried to post, the system required me to reset my info, which in turn seems to have reset my "join" date. However, even though I don’t participate, I have enjoyed and learned from many threads. Often times I may not agree with my namesakes approach and conclusions, but I have learned a great deal regarding "vintage" products from him (purchased an AT 1010 to tryout because of his insights). That being said, my comments were directed to the declarative statements being made by one party and it was not my explicit intention to suggest it was directed at you. But some of the assumptions made in some of your comments are pregnant ( Merleau-Ponty) with declarative statements, so perhaps, subconsciously embedded within the text there was also an attempt at referencing you :) . |
chakster,
Yes, many nice improvements but still one missing. It would be great if pictures could be posted. Sometimes it is hard to describe something and having a picture makes it so much more understandable. Perhaps the next improvement cycle will be the charm but much thanks need to go the caretakers of this forum. Thankless job I am sure so I do tip my hat to those responsible. @griffithds you’re right, e mbedding pictures option would be very nice, indeed. I’m still waiting for a proper audiogon APP for iphone, sometimes it’s hard to read from mobile devices i use most of the time. Meanwhile everything remain old school here on the message board. |
Hi guys, I am trying to figure out what is the current controversy in which Raul and others are embroiled, so I can post my own equally subjective opinion. Since I am not exactly sure about the argument (using this term in a legal way and not to demean it), I will say all of my relevant opinions: (1) The idea of any benefit from aging silver wire or, as I think Kondo-san put it, just plain "silver", is ludicrous to me, since all silver available to us was probably created along with the earth itself, several billion years ago, unless Kondo-san had secretly mastered the art of alchemy. However, one could make a case, because there is no way to obtain contrary evidence, that aging of silver wire (silver, once it has been drawn into wire shape) is beneficial to the "sound" of the wire for some unknowable reason. I don't buy that, either, but I have no factual way to deny it. Beyond this, there is the very real claim of some DIYers that old transformers, obtainable by parting out high quality vintage amplifiers, like Acrosound, Marantz, etc, do sound superior to newly wound transformers, when used as output devices. None of these are wound with silver wire, however. (2) The supposed superiority of vintage electronics. If you define "vintage" as Dynaco, McIntosh, Marantz, Harman Kardon, I don't subscribe to it. First, you've got to replace all the electrolytics before you even fire it up, which arguably changes the sound from what it was back in the good old days. And the good old days were not that good, compared to the modern era where the passive parts available to us and the solid state devices are far superior to even 20 years ago, albeit we're still using the same tubes. Fifty years ago, no one used teflon or polystyrene film capacitors we have today, for just one item. Still, a few things do stand up to time: Quad speakers, my Beveridge speakers, KLH ESLs (my bias is showing, I know), and probably many of the finest electromagnetic driver-based speakers of yore, such as Altec, JB Lansing, etc. Vintage cartridges can still be wonderful and do challenge modern ones for greatness, I believe. Turntables too. Electronics, not so much. (3) I do think there is a "difference" between the sonic effects of wires coiled in a transducer (cartridge) or transformer or inductor vs wires used to connect parts within a circuit or to connect the circuit to input and output devices. I think coiled wire has less impact but is still audible; I base this on the reports of others who use ZYX cartridges in which one has a choice of copper vs silver coils and on SUTs I have heard from the same maker that are wound with either copper or silver. The consensus with which I agree is that silver is not always the better sounding choice but that the metals are distinguishable, nevertheless. (Copper ZYX cartridges are preferred by a vast majority of the cognoscenti; silver SUTs were preferred in the one instance where I was present at the audition of copper vs silver SUTs from the same maker.)
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Dear griffithds: """
because articles written by actual Electrical Engineers, do not agree with what you have stated. The difference being, they have test results that have been verified through repeated lab testing """"
unfortunatelly and with all my respect almost all those Electrical Engineers are not ( at the same time ) TEA.
In the other side maybe they are measuring not what they have to measure that has a direct relationship with music/sound quality performance characteristic.
I read it and agree with you on that part of your overall sentence, that's all.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear lewm: """
some DIYers that old transformers, obtainable by parting out high quality vintage amplifiers, like Acrosound, Marantz, etc, do sound superior to newly wound transformers... """
I'm not an expert on wire-wound and I suppose not every coil/inductor is wounded the same. I know for sure that not all cartridge coils are wounded the same even inside the same manufacturer. In the other side could be, some times, that those DIYers what are listening not always is better quality performance but only DIFERENT quality performance.
Anyway, each one of us have diferent opinions and dialogue inn between could helps to understand in better way the complexity of audio subjects.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Lewm - There is no great controversy here, just different opinions. Headshell leads include both wire and connectors so any differences are not just due to wire material, but also the gauge, winding, length & connectors. I hear significant repeatable differences in testing. As regards vintage components they all fit a pecking order in some way. For example the quality of transformers is more due to design and winding technique ( technique, tension and lay etc ) than "age". Did you know some winders used to beat the copper wire with a mallet before winding in the old days, doubt anyone does that now. Valves are another example - does anyone today hand grind the grids and match the internal wires to minimise distortion like they used to in the old days, metallurgy and the chemical compositions are much changed today in tube manufacturing. Some paper and oil caps may be better than average quality polys in some applications - remember these have difference electrical properties due to construction. Obviously there may be tradeoffs with old components.
Don’t be too assumptive on old components - I use some vintage 50’s Altec transformers on one of my cartridges - and was surprised to find that the interleaved windings in these 50’s trannies have teflon layers. I have 2 Marantz 7 tube preamps, one original and one completely rebuilt with modern components. The latter is a considerable improvement. Having said that the original is quite capable of seeing off my old Klyne System 7 phono, supposedly one of the best solid state phonos around. As an aside, both Saul Marantz and Sid Smith used modified Marantz 7’s in their own systems - for me it is not heresy to mod these vintage components.
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Dover, For once, we don't really disagree. I did not mean to infer that I don't "hear" differences among wires; I do. I was only pointing out that there is also evidence that the nature of the coiled wires in a transducer can make an audible difference, based on the ZYX cartridge example and perhaps on the Kondo silver transformer example, if the Audio Note worshipers are to be believed. This is in a way counter-intuitive. I agree that the excellence of vintage (output) transformers could well be due to the superior "art" put into them, as compared to what is being made today for tube audio. And finally, in poo-poo-ing vintage electronics, I thought later that I should have excepted the Marantz 7 when properly re-furbished and perhaps also modified and also the HK Citation amplifiers, by the way; those latter Citation output transformers may be some of the best ever made anywhere. The Marantz 8B and 9 amplifiers probably have superb output transformers and could be made to sound great with some modern parts. (All these devices typically use the 12AU7 tube of which I am not fond. However, there are a few excellent replacements with near identical electrical characteristics that could be used if one were to do a little work on the chassis' or wiring, the 6CG7 and the 6SN7 octal.)
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