04-26-12: Lewm
Although you [Raul] are not the first to suggest that the phono circuit downstream from the load resistor has something to do with the choice of load resistance, I have yet to read a clear explanation for why that would be, apart from the possible effect that the net input impedance of the circuit might have in parallel with the chosen load resistor, but that's a no-brainer. Is there something more to it? Hi Lew, Cartridge inductance and load capacitance (cable capacitance + the input capacitance of the phono stage) will interact to produce a high frequency resonant peak in frequency response, below the frequency at which rolloff eventually occurs. For a cartridge having relatively low inductance, such as a LOMC and perhaps even the Stanton you are discussing, that peak will be well into the ultrasonic region, and perhaps even in the RF region. Heavier loading (i.e., lower load resistance) will reduce the magnitude of that peak. If that peak is too large as a result of excessively light loading, it may result in frequencies being introduced into the phono stage that it may not be able to handle in a graceful manner, resulting in adverse effects at audible frequencies. Those effects could include increased susceptibility to RFI problems, increased tic and pop sensitivity, intermodulation distortion, ultrasonic ringing, or even oscillations. Excess ultrasonic energy could also create similar problems for components that are downstream of the phono stage. Best regards, -- Al |
Dear Timeltel: I owned any single SUT from the early 80's by AT. From the AT630 to the AT1000T.
The 630 was not an entry level one but a way mediocre SUT that IMHO can't makes any " favor " to no cartridge. Forgeret about specs but one extremely important: the AT 630 weight is less than 200grs against the AT1000T that weights over 8kg. From where came that SUT weight: from the transformers as better and bigger transformer ( obviously according a good design like the AT one. ) as better frequency extremes response, especially on the bass.
I repect what you are hearing but let to tell you: its next " brother " ( top step ) the AT650 fumigate the 630 and the 700T or the AT1000T are a totally different " face " on qualioty performance level.
IMHO any god designed headamp outperform the 630. I believe what you posted but makes no sense to me knowing that 630 that other than degradation helps to nothing but an " emergency ".Crisp sound almost always means: " distortions ", at least that's my experiences.
Maybe you are doing " something " with that 630 that I'm unaware.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
|
Lewm nailed it.
Mikey shifts gears more than a cross country truck driver.
There will be another fav in the not too distant future as has happened time and time again. That's how the reviewers retain the audience.
It's called entertainment. |
Dear Thom, On second reading, I do understand your post, I think. Anyway, 100R does not do justice to the 980LZS in my system. In my friend's system WITH the SUT, the cartridge is seeing about 270R, and that is evidently not sufficient either to bring out the best from the cartridge. (Dave Slagle calculated a 3db rolloff at 20kHz with that load.) I did not try values in between 100R and 1000R, but clearly 1000R is far superior sounding. In any case, the hybrid you are listening to is not identical to a 980/981LZS, so perhaps that accounts for your experience vs mine and that of my friend with the SUT. Also and finally, the step up ratio of the AT630, with which I am not familiar, may be quite different from that of the built-in SUT in the Allnic, which could also make a diff. Beyond that, quien sabe'? |
Dear Jorsan Usually all my Koetsu experiences " demanded " in my set up a tiny positive SRA/VTA but this could change on your set up.
We all know that the cartridge SRA have to coincide with the LP cutting angle but this is no way to fulfil due to LP imperfections that all we know so we have to try/test in each set up and decide about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Nikola, I am sure the Atlas is a great cartridge, at $9500. But for Fremer it is merely his flavor of the month. Don't take it too seriously.
Dear Thom, I must confess I cannot make heads or tails out of your post just above Jorsan's on 4-26. What is it you are trying to say?
Dear Raul, We are in complete agreement; the 980/981 was not made for use with a SUT. I think I even posted my concerns on this matter prior to this, but now I know for sure based on my friend's experience. I had a conversation with Dave Slagle, and he agrees that the problem is its relatively high inductance compared to a typical MC. I was merely trying to warn anyone here who might want to purchase one of those NOS 981LZSs from naalden; don't do it if you plan to use a SUT in order to achieve the necessary gain.
As to the rest of it, I can only report to you that my 980LZS does not perform up to its maximum potential when I accidentally listened to it with a 100R load. It sounded dull, closed-in, and lifeless. It came to life at 1000R. I think 1000R is what I used previously when I was so happy with it. Based on what Dave and also Bill Thalmann said about the specs of the 981/980LZS, 47K or even higher might be even better. I plan to try it. If you have based your judgement of the LZS series on its sound with a 100R load, you owe it to yourself to try a higher value, at least 1000R. And here's why: the nominal internal resistance is indeed very low at 3 ohms, which makes one think that 100R should be fine. But the high-ish inductance adds a reactive component to the total resistance seen by the phono stage; as frequency goes up, resistance goes up. At hf, the net resistance is much higher than 3 ohms. Thus there is a significant roll-off of hf response by the time you get up to 10kHz and higher, into a 100R load.
Although you are not the first to suggest that the phono circuit downstream from the load resistor has something to do with the choice of load resistance, I have yet to read a clear explanation for why that would be, apart from the possible effect that the net input impedance of the circuit might have in parallel with the chosen load resistor, but that's a no-brainer. Is there something more to it? |
Dear all, 'Our' Jonathan Carr got the highest prease by Fremer for his Atlas , probable the best LOMC at present. I am sure that we all are proud to have him as member and would like to congratulate him for this achievement in the name of us all.
Regards, |
Raul, would you comment my post of the 25th please?, I really apreciate it, thanks |
Regards, Lewm: "The Pickering XLZ/series cartridge was designed to be used in stereo systems which have high gain, low impedance MC input or use external head amps with input impedance of 100 ohms or higher."
Rummaged around & pulled out of my kit an AT-630 SUT specifically intended for the AT-30E MC, 1:10 gain. The Pickering XLZ 4500S gives singing lessons to the AT-30E (recently replaced stylus w/NOS assembly, you can do this with the 30E), & once was considered a fairly listenable cart. The AT 30E recco. loading at the head amp is 100 ohm, the AT 630 tranny works well with the Pickering into 47k at the phono section.
Tone/timbre is good. Crisp, translucent hfs, startling dynamics. Exceptionally quiet in the groove. I really like this cart.
Peace, |
Dear Lewm: +++++ " my 980LZS driving the high gain phono stage.... "+++++
as with the LOMC cartridge the Stanton was not designed for SUTs.
Now, I don't know why your 980 can't " shine " at 100 ohms. My 981 certainly dit it at that load impedance but my Phonolinepreamp is way different from yours. Now, remember that lower impedance meand lower SPL so when we compare at higher impedance we have to match the SPL under any carrtridge comparisons.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Regarding the Stanton 980LZS or the 981LZS: A friend purchased an NOS 981LZS from pickup naalden (Cris). He uses a SUT. Suffice to say that he is not happy with the sound he gets via the SUT. He says it sounds closed in and lacks "transparency". The max load resistance he can achieve with the SUT is less than 300 ohms, and I think this may be the problem, since I too found that the cartridge does not bloom until you raise the load R to at least 1000 ohms. I think this may have to do with the fact that the inductance of the 980 is much higher than that of a typical LOMC (1 mH vs typically about 50 uH [microhenries] for LOMC). So, even though the internal resistance of the 980/981 is very low at 3 ohms, I do not advise mating it with a SUT. You need a true high gain phono stage. I would appreciate the comment of Dlaloum or Timeltel or anyone else regarding the validity of my hypothesis for why there seems to be a problem. I remain quite thrilled with my 980LZS driving the high gain phono stage in my MP1 phono stage. Will be interested to know Dave Garretson's results as well. |
Hello all I of have a Cisco copy of Tchaikovsky's violin concerto in d minor Stinburg and the Pittsburgh symphony. Hadn't spun it lately and yes quite enjoyable indeed. Im getting a nice full spread with the featured violin front slight left. Shimmering strings colossal tone the breath of the soloest coming through very real. Plucks that extend you almost can feel the air. Don't know how this copy stacks with you classical experts but for me a simple man very nice first thing in the morning.
I might add this AT 155/160 combo does all music really well. Going to have a hard time moving on to anther MM gem.
Its a beautiful morning down in dixie,
Mike |
Dear Frogman: +++++ " nformation that is present in real life is lost by the recording process.... " +++++
and I can add :2 and during playback proccess too ".
As I posted, a comparison between what we have at home has no comparison against live music: main factor is that in a live event there is nothing in between music and you but the air instead what we hear in a LP has over 100 links/veils/filters that gives to the sound a different " face ".
The speed, dynamics, no-distortions, fflow, tone color, natural agresiveness and the like diminish the real " power of music " the feeling and emotions that only the live music can gives in its own way.
I repeat: nothing but the air between music and each one of us, THIS IS THE WHOILE DIFFERENCE.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul, following your response about the koetsu, do you consider a good advice to add some positive vta to this and any cartridge that has been in use for several years? Is not normal that because been used for that long time, the contact angle tend to shift a little becuase the cart weight? Thanks. |
Dear Froggie, OK. Semantics got in the way of our understanding each other. When you wrote "3D" and based on your subsequent language, I thought you were talking about the 3D image of a trumpet per se. |
Raul, thanks for sharing your experience; and I commend you for caring enough to conduct that experiment.
I think this subject is in many ways a classic case of "talking past each other", as I think there is actually a lot more agreement than disagreement.
Lewm wrote:
"I never thought about a single instrument having a "3D" aspect. I am satisfied if and when my audio system can give me a sense of the space around that instrument, rather than of its dimensions".
I consider that a contradictory statement. "sense of space around that
instrument" is precisely what I have been talking about; it is a classic definition of 3D, in my opinion.
Call it 3D, "sense of space around the instrument", dimensionality (which by the way does not imply giving a sense of the actual measurable dimensions, but rather, the existence of dimensions), whatever. The sound of a live instrument (or group of instruments) playing in space has a tremendous sense of volume (to use yet another possible definition), much more than a recorded one. Were it not the case, and were the recorded sound posess such a strong quality that does not occur in real life (3D), then the only logical conclusion is that our beloved audio gear is even worse than previously thought, as we would then be talking about a seriously gross distortion of sound.
As I said in my original post on this subject, what I believe happens is that the sense of 3D that most audiophiles talk about re recorded sound is a sin of omission. A great deal of lowlevel information that is present in real life is lost by the recording process, and actually creates a sense of a musical image starkly separated from what is, in real life, a much larger sound envelope which has a much less defined beginning and end; the result of much more harmonic information extending in all directions for a much longer period of time (decay). |
I never thought about a single instrument having a "3D" aspect. I am satisfied if and when my audio system can give me a sense of the space around that instrument, rather than of its dimensions. For example, the differences among the sounds of that trumpet outside in free space, in a large auditorium, or in Raul's apartment with the low-ish ceilings. When I spoke of depth and 3D imaging, I was thinking of an ensemble of composed of a variety of dissimilar instruments.
I really like Raul's last point, and I noticed this too in a small jazz club when I was sitting about 6 feet away from a trumpet player and a trombone player standing side by side with the bells pointed right at me; the sound was very loud during crescendos but never "irritating". It was just, for want of a better word, "pure". So clean! Even the best audio system will eventually exhibit distortions at high volume levels, due to being overdriven. |
Well, I let that he finished and started to talk with him and because we were so near my place I invite him to come with me and explain what I want to test. You are truly sui generis, Raul. I mean that in the best possible way. |
David,
Thank you for taking the time to pen that wonderful post.
An intelligent, comprehensive and learned summation of sometimes forgotten 'history'.
The story of Wagner and his 'orchestra in the pit' of course is singularly pertinent is relation to '3D sound' and 'pinpoint imaging'? :^)
It also bears mentioning that Wagner designed his own hall and orchestra pit to project his Ring Cycle in the manner for which he composed it?
Regards
Henry |
Dear Frogman: You understand my meaning and appreciated your answer.
Now, there is a link of my questions on the 3D " imaging, let me explain:
here in México city we can find out persons that are playing single instrument to get some " coins " to survive. These persons goes on a street walking block after block: this is their daily work.
Yesterday when I go out ( walking. ) very near of my home I heard the sound of a trumpet/horn coming from somewhere ( I was at 80m. from the source ) in the street in free space, even I can't seen the player but as any one of us immediatly I was aware was a live and real sound. I follow walking approaching the player till I was at 10m. in the other side of the street and even at 10m that high SPL ( in free space and with a normal street surrounded noise. ) that impose the trumpet gives that natural agresiveness we are talking about.
With my eyes open I try to figure the imaging on 3D and was elusive for say the least. I cross the street till I was at 2-3m and then at less than 2m: I can't detect that 3D. Btw, I love this people and if for no other thing because they give us the opportunity to enjoy a live music performance.
Well, I let that he finished and started to talk with him and because we were so near my place I invite him to come with me and explain what I want to test.
My place is an apartment with not to high ceiling, I asked him to play inside my place and knowing what a trumpet can makes ( high SPL ) in a closed room ( like my apartment ) I took position 6m from the source trying to find out that 3D we are talking about that 3D that came on the recordings and I can't perceive in that way: yes exist an overall " imaging " as you say ( and I agree ) but this kind of dimensionality is something that several audiophiles are not aware as you and other persons including me are.
I approach 2m from the trumpet and as you say that dimensionality almost disappear against the very very high SPL of the trumpet direct sound.
After those tests now I have a new friend, a good one.
Btw, even at 2m. inside my place the SPL even with its agresiveness does not " hurt " my ears and had not the necessity to " lower the volume " because I can't been aware of no single distortions like the ones that always exist in our each one audio system: any system.
Every single day even that I'm not a player I listen to live music because in the apartment next flor ( a top ) of mine I have two boys that are learning music: one with the guitar and the other with a piano, both are very good and even that the sound came from other closed room it is marvelous. Three four days everyweek I'm at its place hearing their " training ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Raul, I am not sure I understand your question correctly; but I will try to answer what I think you mean. Musical "image" is the aural equivalent of a visual image. We commonly use the term "imaging", no? I am not sure I understand what you mean by an image "permitting" high SPL's and aggressiveness. I experience precisely what you described (horns/trumpets playing 2m from me) on a regular basis, and I assure you that the resulting sound has dimensionality (yes, 3D), great specificity, and of course a great deal of power. As one moves further away from those sources, the "images" of those instruments (and all others, actually) gain dimensionality, as the ratio of direct sound to reflected sound will obviously
change.
If your question has to do with recorded sounds of those instruments, no recorded sound will capture the high SPL's and natural aggressiveness of real horns 2m from the listener. But then, I don't understand how that relates to the original discussion about 3D. Please clarify.
Regards. |
Also try Heifetz's Glazunov Concerto (RCA LS) for another great example of his unique combination of virtuosic perfection and passion. And talk about 3D violin sound! :-) |
Dear Frogman: Yes, " musical images " could be better. Now, let me to ask you: which could be the musical image of a pair of horns/trumpets playing at 2m from you.? what musical image permit those trumpets natural agresiveness high SPL direct sound been percieved?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Re the classical vs rock discussion, Duke said it best. There are only two kinds of music, "good and bad". And of course, jazz is the only "good" music. Just kidding. Beatles, too. Dave G's remark made me want to drag out my copy of Heifetz playing the Sibelius Violin Concerto. That was the first classical LP that made me appreciate that classical music was subject to personal interpretation and creativity, almost to the same extent as jazz. What Heifetz does with that music is genius. |
Mike, I had a Pontiac LeMans with the V8 and a floor shift. My dad thought the GTO was "too fast". I could not talk him into it. Later, in med school, I bought myself a used Alfa Duetto with my own money. Liked the LeMans but loved the Alfa. The Beatles seem even greater today than I thought they were then, because of the crappy music with which we are bombarded on a daily basis. Only the Stones and a very few others can compare. I remember now that my system in 1970 was AR XA turntable, CM SS preamp (a small now defunct company based in CT), an SAE SS amplifier, and those IMF Studios, all crammed into our apartment when I was an intern. Interestingly, I may have had a Stanton 681E cartridge at that time.
Dave, I first started at 100R load on the Stanton. I am sitting there thinking that the cartridge sure sounds "dark" and not much highs. Then I realized that I still had the MP1 set up for the Ortofon MC7500. (I installed switchable loading in the MP1, so I can now choose 100R, 1000R, and 47K via a single 4PDT switch on the rear.) So I switched over to 1000R. Big big improvement. I need to try 47K, but I was so taken by the music after that that I stopped worrying. It was interesting to me that even though the Stanton has a 3-ohm internal resistance, lower than many LOMCs, it just does not sound right into a 100R load (no treble). Perhaps this has to do with its 1mH inductance, as opposed to the ~50 microhenry inductance of an LOMC. |
Lew for sometime Sundays when possible has been The Beatles day around here. Nothing like wraping yourself in there library of musical delights. And speaking of Abby Road quite possibly my favorite.
My earliest fond moment from back in the early 70s pulling into the family drive way with my 65 GTO early into a new day Abby Road pumped as loud as you can image through my 8 track tape player. Im into the final short melodies when I hear a pounding on the drivers window its my dad I woke him up while jamming O no. In the he was cool about it but it did not start that way. Dident know it at the time I was living the best days of my life.
Gotta love the Beatles
Mike |
David, fantastic post, and exactly on target.
While I take exception with comments made by some, such as referring to audiophile considerations as "audiophile BS", I believe it would be most productive for the audiophile/music lover to put more emphasis on understanding the depth and complexity of musical matters. Gaining a deeper understanding of technical audio matters is great and has obvious benefits, but it seems to me that if there isn't a corresponding depth of understanding re the music, all that technical knowledge leads to simply spinning our wheels since we don't really understand what it is that the
more and more "sophisticated" gear in our audio systems is supposed to be letting us hear. The amount of information available in a live performance is mind-boggling compared to what is actually present over even the best systems.
****So I posit the theory that in actual fact, many audiophiles who prefer their system/recordings to the live events, are doing this because in reality they prefer the "collage" artform over the live performance artform.**** -
Dlaloum
Returning to an earlier discussion: I confess I am mystified by the assertions of some of the posters on this thread that there is no 3D effect in live music. I agree that 3D as a audiophilic term, and as described by some does not exist in live music; not exactly, anyway. Let's first define what it is we are talking about. From wordIQ.com, 3D:
"Three dimensional objects have volume and may be measured and described using three orthogonal directions.
In animation, 3-D sometimes refers to shaded, modeled shapes that have an apearance of depth, as opposed to the "flat" rendering of conventional cell animation"
I think it is fair to apply this description to musical "images". I won't repeat what I posted earlier, but can only conclude that some are using a different definition of the term, as a musical instrument playing live exibits far more of these characteristics than any recorded one. |
Lew, what loading do you using on 980LZS? I'm close to mounting mine.
BTW I recall purchasing Abbey Road in '70 in the tiny music dept. at Korvettes dept. store-- an isle or two from the toy dept. where plastic guns & ammo had my close attention a few years earlier. |
Mike, Interesting you were listening to the Beatles. I had the same impulse. On Saturday, I was blowing my mind with the Abbey Road album, played at a high db level. That album came out in the same year that I purchased my very first pair of "high end" loudspeakers, IMF Studios, which I bought from Mike Kaye at Lyric Audio in NYC. Mike helped me to load them into my car. The Studios and Abbey Road will always be linked in my mind, because I used to fret whether the 8-inch KEF woofers in the transmission line were being overloaded on "Come Together". But the whole album is a masterpiece. "Come Together" on my Sound Labs, played with the Stanton 980LZS, is to die for. By the way, I am listening to the very same copy of the album (on Apple) that I purchased originally in 1970. Was singing "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" this morning whilst brushing my teeth. (Not easy, with toothpaste in your mouth.) |
Dear Dlaloum: ++++ " We do not know what the composers did or did not intend, with the exception of the occasional letters/notes left by them. " +++++
I'm refering to this statement and agree with you. Of course that the halls are builded with the direct/reflected sound subject but I'm not refereing in specific to the halls.
I'm refering on what we can experience at the orchestral Director position or what we experienced in a jazz club where IMHO and trhough my experiences the direct sound SPL is so high that made that the reflected sound almost disappear. This happen at2m-3m from the sound source when in a hall we are seated 20-30m from there: way way differences on what we get and what the mics get with no manipulation.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Raul with regards to your comments re: the composers and direct/reflected sound - I totally disagree!
Taking a look at auditoria from the periods of the various composers, the auditoria acoustics were specifically designed for a particular type of music.
In other words, the music and the auditoriums went together... ie: the proportion of direct to reflected sound was taken into account and planned for in the composition of the music.
Music from the earlier Mozart/Haydn period was made for halls with a short reverb time (circa 1.2s) - the halls that then and now are known for excellence with this type of music have proportions that result in this type of reverb. This also results in a dry clean clear sound - and much more precise spatial positioning...
Romantic period halls tend towards reverb times of 2s, with reverb time being greatest in the lower frequencies and least in the higher ones, emphasizing the lower frequencies and depressing the highs... a very warm, full, romantic sound.
In a concert hall, reflections take around 15ms longer to arrive at the ear than direct sound... this hugely affects the sound - short sharp dynamics (percussion) are clearly located - but any lengthy section/notes, those that focus on tone, the direct sound will be completely swamped by the reflected sound, and due to the nature of the type of sound involved, localisation is likely to be difficult if not impossible. More than 50% of the sound amplitude reaching the listener is reflected! So the "frequency response" of the reflections completely alters the performance.
Good article on that topic here:http://www.regonaudio.com/HighRomanticism.html
We do not know what the composers did or did not intend, with the exception of the occasional letters/notes left by them.
But we do know what halls they performed in, and which halls were considered "good" as opposed to "bad".
Looking at the type of halls, you can clearly seperate venues designed for baroque music from those intended for romantic - and the composers who were no dumbo's wrote music to be played in a specific environment.
With Wagner (most opera really) - any localisation / imaging is in fact coincidental - the orchestra is (or should be) in a pit - all sound reaching the audience is (or should be) indirect! - and the hall by design boosts the lower frequencies, and by comparison, depresses the highs.
The effect is one of being engulfed by waves of sound.... it is all tone and timbre with no imaging/staging. (except the vocal performers on stage - they are not in the pit...)
It seems to me that the great romantic composers were well aware of the halls and the acoustics that they were playing with, and they used it as a part of their composition.
When the music is then played differently, in a different type of space, or recorded and played back using multimike methods, the result may be pleasant, but it is not the original composition.
The only effective way of capturing a reasonable facsimile of the original composition played in one of the halls it is intended for, is a two mike setup, positioned at the listener location/seat - where it can capture the mix of reflections and direct sound in the correct proportions.
This captured sonic information can then be used to provide a reasonable facsimile of the performance in the home.
Potentially with technologies like ambisonics, and specialised ambisonics microphones, the entire acoustic event can be recorded and recreated - but as long as the capture is done in a known controlled manner at the listener location - then it becomes a matter of intelligently decoding it at the replay end. This, depending on the recording system used could involve something as simple as speaker locations, or something as complex as digital decoding with spectrum variable timing delays, head related Transfer functions etc...
Timeltel - thanks for the link to the sound processing book by the way!
Is there software that can take a sound, and by digitally processing it, position it within a virtual space - yes there is. And it is getting better every day. (some of the stuff that is possible today with relatively economical software is truly astounding!)
But will that be a reproduction of a performance - no it won't be .... instead it is a creation of a performance.
In other words, any recording that does not make the "purist" attempt to record the event at the listener location, (which may involve more than two mikes, depending on the system) is in fact engaging the recording engineer as a secondary composer/conductor.
So really we are listening to Beethoven not by Bernstein or Stokowski - but by John Doe recording engineer.
(slightly unfair, at least in Stokowski's case, he got directly involved in the engineering of his recordings, and made sure they sounded the way he wanted... but I believe this to be the exception rather than the rule)
Does and can a multimiked performance sound good? - Sure!
Is what we hear through our systems on such a recording a reasonable approximation of what the composer had in mind? I doubt it.
Is it any less valid as music - probably not - just as valid - but it is not valid to attempt to claim that it is a reflection/recording of an audio event. That is the one thing it is NOT - it is an independent composition and the composer is the recording engineer.
Much like various artists make mash-ups of previously existing pieces of art thereby creating a new piece of art in the process, so the recording engineer takes the multimiked inputs (which themselves involve a lot of art, and are offcuts / windows onto the original piece of art which is the whole composition), and builds a collage - this collage is in reality a completely new piece of art.
If what the listener is seeking is a reasonable facsimile of the original piece of art, then this method is fundamentally flawed.
But if the listener is looking for a differing art form, based on but not the same as the original piece of art, then it may have a high value.
So I posit the theory that in actual fact, many audiophiles who prefer their system/recordings to the live events, are doing this because in reality they prefer the "collage" artform over the live performance artform.
Multimiked recordings with that type of pinpoint imaging of a full blown romantic period wagnerian orchestra are in no way a reflection of Wagners art.
But as a derivative artform some of them are in fact superb.
Hmm I'm starting to meander, and repeat myself... I might stop writing now.... (probably shouldn't write too much after midnight....)
bye for now
David |
Dear Downunder: Great experiences. The Technics P100CMK4 with the right overall set up is just a fascinating performer hard very hard to beat and a real challenge for any cartridge out there.
Good that you own the stand alone version and good too to hear from you again.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Hi guys. I am currently trying out a pass labs xp-25 phono stage. Sounds pretty darm good with Atlas and xv-1s.
I decided to replace the xv-1s with the legend that is the Technics epc-p100cmk4 on the exclusive p3 to see how it sounds with mm. changed the gain on the pass to 47db, 100pf and 47k and played talk talk-the colour of spring album again.
Wtf, sounds amazing. The best I have heard the technics sound. I am not feeling any desire to go back to the Lyra Atlas atm.
More to follow
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Dear Jorsan: Koetsu Rosewood cartridges are low riders low/medium compliance ones, not all samples are low riders because quality control on this model is not even but normaly are low riders but 1mm seems to me to low and maybe in that cartridge exist a suspension problem.
Now, if the cartridge performs good then maybe you have not be worried about.
In the other side and as I said there is no even quality control in this Koetsu model and depends on its vintage production how it runs.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
All you must know i was poking some Beatles Sunday fun. Right now playing the white lp uk first pressing and i do enjoy the dubed in orchestra with piggys.
Frogman im 60 years young and as posted i use vintage Fisher pre and mono blocks tubed of course vinyl only front end. Along with the rest of my system music is fun and special. Normally 4 or more lps daily to quench my musical fix.
Yep classic rock is my favorite and played most often. But as quoted in the movie The Blues Brothers i like all music practically. I have a assortment of classical and do enjoy it but not on a regular basis.
I have mentioned and truly believe theres no way to reproduce live at home. That fact does not affect my total enjoyment of my stereo. And of all the systems ive owned that enjoyment factor has held true.
I was turned on to music by my mom as a young boy waking on school mornings to that sweet sound of AM radio. Mom liked Sinatra Martin Como Williams yep pop music. The closest i was exposed to classical was the Mitch Miller show. We had a Fisher console it was tubed and i spent a lot of time between the speakers with Mitch Ryder Otis Reading James Brown and the Dave Clark 5. The rest is history convicted i am a music lover till the end.
Back to the White Album
Mike |
Sltrains, I get where you're coming from, however I don't see well recorded R&R as less demanding than good classical. On a good system there's not so much difference between Bernie Grundman's Lp master of Foo Fighters Skin & Bones and Classic Records's 45RPM of Heifetz doing Sebelius Violin Concerto in D Minor, Op 47-- particularly on a Saturday night. |
Raul, is possible you could answer my question about The koetsu rosewood signature? , I have read elsewere coments that you made about this cart. i know that this question does not belog here but ....
Thanks |
Stltrains, you couldn't be further from the truth. I suspect that rather than showing your bias you are simply showing your age. Home audio and it's aficionados were around well before the term rock and roll was invented. Altec, Armstrong, HH Scott, Fisher, Williamson, Ampex, to name just a few of the brands that offered home-audio gear well before anyone had heard of rock and roll. And guess what? Lacking all the fancy and "sophisticated" test gear available today, the designers of such gear had the audacity to actually use their ears to determine if their gear approximated the sound of real music.
And for the record, a pair of Quads driven by good tube amps, playing a good classical LP on a well set-up TT (just one example) sounds more like what I hear live in a concert hall, than any audio gear I have heard playing high-energy rock and roll, when compared to what I hear at a live rock concert. |
Dear friends: +++++ " and not compare both mediums: live music against audio system, we can't compare it in any way and IMHO the best we can do is to take the live music as a reference of something we can't achieve. " +++
that is what I posted one or two thread's pages before.
along:
++++ " soundstage / imaging when talking about transparency - personally I think soundstage / imaging are a side effect ( Dlaloum ). " +++ and I agree with Lharasim here: who cares about when does not exist in live events as we talk in an audio system? " +++++
I know that almost think 3D exist in live music and yes could exist if we are seated like funflyer at 40'-50 feets and even here depends on several factors as he pointed out.
Microphones are not at 40-50 feets but really near the sources, sometimes 1m-2m from there. Micros taakes the direct sound where exist no 3D and takes almost no reflected sound or at to low SPL that that reflected sound disappears with the higher SPL of the direct sound.
A classical music Director playing/performing a wide orchestral composition as any of the Mahler symphonies can't look for 3D at 2-3m from the source but more on pin point source on the sherzos/moderato stages but in the " tutties " he not only can't perceive that pinpoint image but certainly no 3D or any reflected sound as we can perceived 20-30 m from the Director main stage position.
If we hear or heard jazz music in a club/night jazz club it does not matters where we are seated ( normally all the seat positions are nearfield ) we can't detect the 3D phenomenon.
I read all the post here and after that I'm still with Dlaloum and Lharasim about: no real 3D in live events ( at least at the micro/Director position but only through audio systems.
Btw, two mics against multimics. I don't remember whom of you posted something like this: " at the end we heard with two ears not multimics ".
I agree in that we hear with twoo ears but we make all the functions that are similar of what the recording enginners makes but we make it in automatic version with no sound manipulations. Let me explain alittle what/which is my take here:
a musi's Director hear with two ears but he is hearing not from two sources , as can be what takes two mics, but from multi-sources ( each orchestral instrument: multimics. ) that inside his/our brain were blended in natural way with no single manipulation.
Problem with multimic recordings is that the blend is manipulated in the wrong way but not because is multimic recording.
I think that a good non-manipulated multimic is faraway a better one recording than a two mics one because these mics has no the habilities of: take the multisource sound and blend in natural way as our ears/brain do.
++++++ " , what I'm talking is a little on the side of what happen with live music through an audio system on subjects like: tone color, dynamic. agresiveness, direct sound, etc, etc. and not compare both mediums: live music against audio system " ++++++
I think in some way Lawrence posted something like what I posted too.
Now, if that 3D really you think exist maybe is time to ask our self: Ravel, Berlioz, Bethoven , etc, etc, took in count that reflected sound many of us are talking about? because that reflected sound is the main " culprit for that 3D image. My answer is NO no one of them took in count any single reflected sound in their compositions even in those old times several performances were in a free space.
I think that in some ways several of the 20+ last posts on the subjects are mixing apples with oranges, maybe I'm wrong or did not understanded those posts and the one mixing those apples with oranges is me but all these is what I think about.
I respect all opinions from you but I think we have to re-think about with out closing " eyes " when trying to evaluate something on the subject ( like Dover. ).
Btw, I almost always suppor and supported that in the very first moment we close our eyes when listening music in that same moment we are lsitening everything our imagination want to hear according how we are biased in that moment. Dear Dover, we hear and perceive sound from all our body including " open eyes " tha's the natural way not closed eyes.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Lets face it home audio was made for miced, mixed, amplified, engineered and loud ass rock and roll
With all do respect to you primary classical music fans this is the facts and it must ne real frustrating to you all. You spend mega bucks on your gear and if its not one faction of the music/sound its another.
Maybe it would be best to just spend the money on live concerts maybe splurge and make the show a road trip.
Long live Rock and Roll the easy music to reproduce at home.
Beatles on Sundays
Mike |
Hello Ct0517 thank you for the link I had no idea that it was in progress...
email me with more specifics on room what kind of piano equipment that you have and i will help you...
Lawrence
Musical Arts
usedhifi@mail2lawrence.com |
Funflyer good on you ...I can totally agree when I visit the lyric opera in chicago... wonderull hall 2nd row on the right..the orchestra is in a pit which does not give any good 3d effect will only give left right information and maybe sometimes depends on how many instruments are setup and where for a particular opera some depth but not that much...but who cares its the real thing..
when we listen/record college band not much 3d effect either so...that's why...but more important people... if our systems have real musical merit sounding more like the real thing has real Tone, color,dynamics IMMHO this is what matters...
I am very passionate about having a musical experience in my home ....
Lawrence
Musical Arts |
Reading through this thread brings up a lot of questions, and the one of 3 dimensionality has recently piqued my interest. Yesterday, I had the pleasure of attending 2 live, unamplified musical performances and I paid close attention to the spatial characteristics of each. With only 2 data points, I must say that the answer is, "It depends!"
The first performance was of a collection of percussion soloists in a ~1200 seat, sparsely populated, rather reflective (most surfaces worked wood) hall (Festival Hall, Round Top, TX.) I was in the 6th row, near center - so about 35-40 feet from the performers. 3D space was very apparent - sometime detrimentally so. As some performers played more than one instrument, it was easy to localize right/left/front/back with each percussive strike. The third perfomer played a combination of instruments, including a metallophone, which had the unpleasant effect of sympathetically energizing 2 notes/tubes from the still on-stage marimba which had been used earlier. After I had determined that I wasn't getting acute tinnitus, it was very apparent that the ringing was coming not from the performer at all, but from far to his left and farther away - from the undamped marimba.
The second performance was a spectacular one of Donizetti's "Maria Stuarta" by the Houston Grand Opera in Wortham Hall ( more sonically controlled/damped.) By coincidence, I was again in the 6th row, though much farther to the side. The orchestra was a bit farther away, but below in the pit. From my location, the pit had an interesting effect. I suppose that due to the early reflections within the pit, it acted as a poor wave-guide, delivering a massive front of acoustic energy - which was spatially confused at best. Although I could detect Right/Left placement easily, the Front/Back dimensionality was completely lacking - and in marked contrast to the vocalists, who were spatially defined with pin-point accuracy. I wonder if anyone has ever evaluated this effect of the pit -and I wonder if the effect is the same thoughout the hall (Based on other experiences, I imagine not.)
So, even before one gets to the recording process, the 3D aspects of a performance may be severely affected by the space itself, the placement of the performers and the specific location of the listeners.
I personally have almost given up on the idea of re-creating the performance from audio equipment. Too many uncontrollable variables from the start. With the best recordings, we get a pleasant facsimile and pleasurable listening experience - but it ain't anything like real. We spend a lot of time debating minutia in our systems, but a re-calibration with live music will help to set things straight. I bet that small venues with limited performers and near-field seating provide the greatest amount of live spatial information, while very large spaces with mass performers tend to lose spatial identification of individual performers and act more like a rock music "wall of sound." Even specific instruments will have different effects in space - some well-focused and pinpoint, but others - like piano with a very large sonic signature, should be less distinct from the start. |
Comon, just an easy question ..... |
Hello Lawrence you said we need to get back to the music people enough with the audiophile BS I really like your passion. If you are really serious about this I would take a few of your posts and use them here ?IMO you may get more traction ? IDK - I can't see the views. Just a thought anyways. But you have buddies here so I understand. This internet bantering can get fun can't it? With that I want to be selfish for a moment and ask you for advice. My daughters piano is one floor above my sound room. I want to record here singing and playing. Can I get advice on what type of mikes to use. If you can help me I can be contacted at bcpguybell.net. The @ is missing. Cheers BTW Good for Jorsan for trying to bring this thread back with a $5000 cartridge. :^) |
I mean the distance from the lp surface to the wood body |
Is normal that a koetsu rosewood runs about 1 / 1.5 mm from the record? Looks to close to the surface to me but would like to be sure if this is normal or not. Thanks |
Lawrence, **Please have a good read this is very important and what i have been trying to say
www.audioasylum
we need to get back to the music people enough with the audiophile BS**
The argument makes two assumptions which are not a given.
1) The goal is to sound like acoustic instruments, as in a live performance.
2) What's on the recording actually sounds like live instruments and accurately reproducing that yields a live facsimile.
I'm not taking a position here one way or the other, merely saying that if the premise is not accepted, the argument is moot. The second point is, if the recording isn't completely accurate, do you strive to accurately reproduce the recording or go beyond by introducing colorations that sound more live?
Regards, |
