oldhvymec, I read your 11:01 AM (yesterday) post with interest. I picked up a few portable power conditioners, NIB, made by SOLA, model 63-15-115-6. I was hoping to use them for my home audio system, but the mechanical noise is a no-go, so I'm curious how you quieted your conditioner, and if that would work on these, my model is the SOLA 63-13-115-6...................
https://www.ideadigitalcontent.com/files/11375/MCR-Portable.pdf Thanks. |
Please excuse the slight sidetrack. I find this conversation interesting and helpful. I liken it to Recycling. In my early years we always equated recycling to a socio-economic attitude and state of your life. If you were well off enough financially you could consider the consequences of your impacts on society and would generally recycle. We all know that is a good idea. If you are pinching pennies in your life struggling to put a roof over your head and food on the table, the last thing you are focused on is recycling. I think there is a similar approach here. Being a high end audiophile (guess that is a fair statement about me now) we worry about stuff that the average listener does not. We worry about things like dirty power and what to do with it. Because we can afford to do so both financially and we have the extra head space in the chaos we call life to think about it. I have gone down that path myself. I've been shown several AC analyzer contraptions. One I purchased from Music Direct was returned because it made no difference. Tried it in several homes and dealer showrooms where conditioned AC properly taken care of. Made the same screeching sounds no matter what. I've installed a whole house surge protector. Added fancy gold plated outlets and have a wonderful Power Conditioner. BTW the Power condition had the greatest improvement in sound quality I have heard in this journey. Couldn't be happier. OK, long post, FWIW, but I agree with many and will end with a quote from a venerable American band "If You Get Confused Just Listen to the Music Play." I'm sure you all have your Saturday RSD releases that need to be put on the turntable! Peace My Fellow GON'rs |
I looked into measuring "noise" on my AC mains, and the least expensive approach would be about $800 to purchase the necessary equipment - and I was unsure if I would be able to actually do it accurately and more importantly, safely. I would need something like this, in addition to some high-current probes, and oscilloscope, and a filter. FWIW, I was looking at a device called the SineTamer, which is primarily used in commercial, industrial, scientific industries. Looks interesting and I still might give it a try some day. |
Don't worry about measuring. Start somewhere. Start with clamping any led lamps in the room. https://www.russandrews.com/us/rf-clamp-pack-of-2-small/ |
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Hasn't heard Michael Fremer say ONE dedicated line, and then explain how audiophiles used to believe you needed more, "which is a really stupid idea" (his words not mine!). Like I said, its not that you can't measure the noise, its that its a waste of time. Because the noise is there. Guaranteed. And so being as we all are limited in our time and money it does no good - no good at all - to spend time and money only to confirm what we already know: there is indeed noise! People can prove this in like ten minutes. Already explained exactly how to do it. How many have bothered to try? Zero. Yet here we are reading all their uninformed opinions. What someone should do, maybe I will, cut and paste all the same old posts so next time someone asks the same question we can provide all the wrong answers in one fell swoop. Please someone go flip the breakers. There's only like a dozen people I have done this demo for, most of them absolutely convinced it was BS, half of them not even audiophiles, every single one shocked at how obvious a difference it was. One guy his wife, I said What's your favorite song and played it for her, then excuse me a minute went and flipped the breakers came back do you mind if we play it again? Instant it was done she is all excited says What did you do it sounded SO MUCH BETTER!!! Yet here we are whole slew of audiophiles supposedly willing to do anything to get better sound yet too lazy to try this one simple trick. But all with time to post misleading opinions. Sad. https://ultimist.com/video/2018/07/21/michael-fremers-listening-room/ Skip to 15:50. Please. |
Don’t waste your time and money on measuring noise on your audio circuits. They are all noisy to a certain extent. If you want to make sure you have the least noise on your audio electrical circuits, just hire a qualified electrician and install dedicated circuits and audiophile grade AC outlets (Furutech). You should wire 2-3 dedicated 20 A circuits, depending on your system configuration. I have 3 dedicated circuits, one for each of my monobloc amps and another circuit for my source components. On the source circuit, I also added a Shunyata VRay II power conditionner. For my own information, I purchased a used Entech AC line analyser meter. Measured the dedicated AC line noise on my dedicated and non-dedicated AC lines. The dedicated lines had 98% less noise than the non-dedicaged lines... |
I don't think smart meters are bad, I think they collect a lot of information and STOP, meter readers in their tracks. I really think that is what it's all about. Smart meters cost a LOT of folks their jobs and as a results few EVER come by to check.. That leaves a simple visual inspection of your equipment, unattended. 500.00 meter. 100,000.00 (with H/W and retirement package) per year employee. LOL Again, you already know it's dirty, and needs maintenance. 300.00 usd and you don't have to check or worry. It checks for you in Milliseconds and responds in milliseconds.. Mine tell me what they are doing, My server monitors the, backup system for the server its self, and any parameter I want to monitor. Hi/Low voltage peak, amps drawn, interruptions, time stamp, WiFi reboot or shutdown... Most laptops can monitor all that stuff, if you want...Can't fix it though... Regards |
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Not nearly as discerning, but- there’s this type of, "sniffer": https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Display-Tester-Measuring-Instrument/dp/B082M1BBG3 |
There are ways to visualize AC line noise, with a newer (FFT feature equipped) O-scope. The correct Spectrum Analyzer can come in handy, as well. ie: https://www.testandmeasurementtips.com/measure-powerline-quality-oscilloscope/ Of course; familiarity with and access to the equipment is a prerequisite. I’ve mentioned this much easier method, on these pages, before: http://www.gryphon-inc.com/Spec%20Sheets/Power%20Monitoring/917010A%20-%20ONEView.pdf |
Here's what is going on, as best I can understand it. Which is way better than most. No one else here even comes close to having done as much or as many different things to improve power to their system. Challenge! This is only the tip of the iceberg https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Every wire is an antenna. Electromagnetic radiation of every kind crosses every wire inducing a signal in that wire. That's the improvement you hear flipping off the breakers, it reduces RFI by cutting off a whole slew of antennas. This is separate from back EMF noise in the line from devices that are connected and running. Those two things together are only part of the problem. Another probably even bigger one is transmission efficiency. Our systems do not draw power in a smooth even flow. Its extremely uneven and varies constantly with the music. Just how much this matters is very easily demonstrated by something as simple as swapping out diodes or caps in the power supply. Every little connection along the way is a gap the power has to bridge on its way to your system. You think its a solid connection. You think there's no gap. On a microscopic level its craggy as the moon. You think the power flows. On a microscopic level electrons are piling up until there's enough and then zap they jump across the gap. Marketing people call this micro-arcing. Audiophiles just love marketing lingo. You are well on your way to wasting a phenomenal amount of time chasing marketing lingo, measuring and all of that. Monumentally huge waste of time. This is why I say to relax. You're all worked up thinking there's something there you can search around and find the answer to. Well there is, and there isn't. There isn't in the sense you cannot find any one thing to point at and say do that and done. There is in the sense you can say its all crap and so anything and everything I can do to make it better is a step in the right direction. Just know its like taking a step here on Earth. You can walk your whole life and never run out of steps. Round and round. Enjoy your walk. Its endless. |
For one.. I never tested anything to see what the condition on my circuitry is.. My neighborhood lucky enough doesnt have any smart meters yet... i know smart meters can go a long distance. But the point is.. if I can test my home... then maybe I can see what is causing my lines to get.. dirty or whatever.. or measure in my house what devices are giving off the most interference, etc.. not sure why finding a cheap meter to get an idea is such a big deal. At the moment im using a Shunyata Hydra 6 conditioner, and a mixture of Shunyata and Silnote Power cords, and a ADD-POWR SYMPHONY PRO EMF Conditioner. They all have made a difference in each step. |
Now that you know your VAC is "Dirty", what you gonna do about it? I have a good supply, very seldom have outages, very seldom have brownouts, and we haven't had spikes or over voltage for over 30 years. PG&E went from 8k lines to 20k lines, 35 years ago. A lot of problems went away. Constant Power supplies issues, all around us. PC especially use to lose their power supplies. One in maybe in 30 years now, from 1 a year. You had to run a PS backup, if you were running a server... We have smart meters, now too. There is a lot more information there than you might think.. What do you as an owner of expensive equipment, do to protect your gear? I use something that maintains, the voltage at 120 VAC on the button. Surge protection, filters above 40 khz, and 20khz. Good copper inlets and outlets on the device. The lowest noise level I can achieve (hum). The quickest response time in the event there is a problem. There is a few more features, but maintaining the voltage, is one of the best things you can do to increase gear life. Mine cost 300.00 usd or close, and about 6-10 dollars in stuff to quiet the mechanical hum, to practically zip... Regards |
I get what your all saying.. makes sense.. and not sure if im coming off nutty but i am pretty relaxed.. just wanted to play around with some measurements.. especially to see how well these PC, conditioners, etc are working.. Thinking of putting a dedicated line in.. aside from ears.. but just wanted to play around with the idea.. so if i shut off everything.. except breaker line to audio system.. that would get the same results as a dedicated line? |
Almost forgot! There is one free and very simple test you can perform to hear for yourself just how much noise there is in your AC. Get your system nicely warmed up. Listen to your favorite music. Go to your panel, flip off as many circuit breakers as you can. Ideally everything but what's needed for the system, but for sure do water heater, stove, refrigerator, spare rooms, stuff like that. Go back and play that same music again. The huge improvement you just heard- blacker background, clearer details, improved dynamics, with less grain and glare - is all due to the reduction in noise from separating the system from all those other circuits. You will hear it. And once you do, you will understand why you do not need no meter. Because you have something better: ears. Go and listen. You will see. |
Relax. The one thing we know for sure is its noisy, dirty, whatever you want to call it. The other thing we know for sure is if you do find something to measure and quantify this it will do absolutely nothing for you. Because we already know its noisy, and we already know what to do about it. Actually its even worse than that. Because if you measure something then that's what you think needs to be fixed, and all it does is set you up for someone's marketing story they want to use to get your money. So what you do instead is talk to people, read reviews, listen to different things, and buy whatever improves the sound. Power cord, fuse, conditioner, TA-102 tape, TC, outlet covers, whatever. All these things actually work and can hugely improve performance. I have no idea whatsoever how they made the AC sine wave look different on a scope. Nor do I care. Nor should you. |
