What's wrong? Nuforce/Capri no better than Sunfire

Tvad, sorry for the late reply. Been busy. I really appreciate your response. No, LOL, you haven't nor couldn't have bullied me in any way. I don't get bullied, period. I was preaching in a general way, and I used the term only in the sense that some people, especially newbies, may tend to feel overwhelmed by those that have supposedly superior experience, and may feel compelled to believe what the "gurus" say even if they don't really hear a difference themselves. As for your communication skills, yes, you can be curt from time to time (LOL), but I don't take you as preachy or elitist. More a pragmatist actually. Truthfully, on this topic and many others, I genuinely appreciate your comments. The only time I felt I needed to come back at you was when I felt you were incorrectly labeling me as tortured, etc. So, no offense taken, and your comments and opinions are always welcome. Best...Jeff

Speaking from experience, as I've owned both the TGP-5 and TGA-5200, they're decent gear (and the amp gives you the option to mimic a tube amp in some respects). I just sold both the pre/pro and amp over the past several months. During the time I owned them, I also owned a Musical Fidelity A5 and a Musical Fidelity A308 (both integrated amps).

The differences between the Sunfire and MF amps were on the subtle side, not a "wow" change at all. They sounded a little different, but neither provided you a huge leap in detail or clarity over the other with all other things being constant (though they are different animals, the 5200 being class D, the musical fidelity amps being class a/class a/b I believe).

One thing you're dealing with here is the use of a pre-amp. The only time I discerned a big difference in detail or dynamics was when I removed the pre/pro (or any preamp) from the signal chain and used either a DAC with volume attenuation or in my case, a computer, to control the volume. The pre/pro, while it does a good job, will "dilute" the source signal, as do most preamps that I've used or encountered (unless built directly into the source component like a DAC). This was the same scenario when using the Musical Fidelity amps where I bypassed the onboard integrated preamp and drove it directly through it's "home theater bypass" inputs.

The only time I got a wow factor out of changing amps was going from the afore mentioned equipment to a tube amp, but that's just a different sound altogether (and not necessarily better to some people). The wow factor to me came from never having owned a tube amp before.

Much like power cords, ICs and any other piece to the equation, most changes aren't wholesale improvements, just incremental steps in one direction or another (and not always forward or for the better).

 For anyone who still cares, here's an update with some very interesting news: I heard a difference between amps!

Actually, it was the same amp, my Sunfire.  As a previous poster reminded me, the Sunfire offers two different outputs: voltage, which is like typical ss amp, and current, which is supposed to mirror tube amp.  I had never played with current output, assuming I would much prefer the clarity and dynamics of the voltage/ss sound.  

Well, I finally tried it and wow, it was not a subtle difference!  It became very apparent on a Bocelli CD that I preferred the tube-like sound, and my 11 yr old son noticed instantly as well, also preferring the current output. I'm really hearing a significant difference here between the two outputs:

With the voltage outs that are typical SS, the music is in your face, the soundstage is at a single plane, all notes at same level, no depth, and (if I'm using the correct terminology) the "leading edge" or "attack" of notes are quite pronounced, overshadowing the balance of the note (ie, cymbals, rim shots, pluck of guitar string or piano key strike). Sometimes this is quite startling, sometimes in a good "wow, what impact/clarity" way, sometimes in a bad "turn down the volume" way. Sound is quite good for acoustic and small ensemble stuff, but the faster, bigger, brighter and/or more complicated the music, the worse it sounds, making me want to turn it down more often than not.

With the current outs that supposedly tube-like in character, it's almost exactly the opposite, and on the whole, significantly better, although there are those moments when I do miss the wow moments. Handclaps are more natural, everything much more listenable. The most remarkable difference: the notes and the soundstage has depth. The best way I can describe the soundstage is like you took a picture/painting where all the images were on a single upright plane and laid it down flat and then the images stood up like in a pop-up display, staggered in depth. The notes, while lacking in the initial impact, have a more even "attack/decay", allowing more depth and detail, and allowing more clarity and distinction between instruments and also vocals. This induces me to increase the volume as opposed to decreasing the volume with the voltage/ss outs. I have also noticed a fuller, more appealing low end/bass output with the current outs. Funny, I thought ss would provide more bass.

OK, so now I'm a believer. Amps can really sound different. I now need to figure out if I only hear a difference between distinct designs like tube vs ss, or if I can really hear a pronounced difference between various ss amps. I have not had the Nuforce amps back in, so I need to do that one last time. Also, still not sure the Capri makes a big difference. It may make some difference, but much less than these different amp outputs.

Jeff -- You'll be interested in the following excellent paper, written by Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere (who as you may know is a frequent contributor here at Audiogon). He characterizes the two kinds of outputs you are describing as based on what he calls the "voltage-paradigm" and the "power paradigm."

It comes across in his paper that which will sound best is dependent on which paradigm the particular speaker was designed for (which in turn may have been either a consciously-made choice by the designer, or an unintentional choice that is implicit in other aspects of the design).

http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html

Regards,
-- Al

Thanks Al. Interesting (though a bit overly technical for a non-techie like me, lol). Couple of observations: clearly I like the power/current paradigm better on my B&Ws, but I doubt these speakers were designed with p/c paradigm in mind. Also, I think that Bob Carver and this Sunfire design proves again that you can design a ss amp to resemble tube amps.

As I don't have a true tube amp to compare, is it possible that a tube-like ss amp offers the best combination/compromise for someone like me who wants that tube-like liquidity and bloom, but also wants ss bass impact and low heat/low maintenance? What ss amps possess these qualities? Based on Karsten's article and my ears, it seems McIntosh amps fit this profile: 1)they fit Karsten's power/current paradigm profile of having stable output regardless of impedance, and 2)everytime I've heard them I've felt the same way I do now with the Sunfire.
What other amps?

As I don't have a true tube amp to compare, is it possible that a tube-like ss amp offers the best combination/compromise for someone like me who wants that tube-like liquidity and bloom, but also wants ss bass impact and low heat/low maintenance? What ss amps possess these qualities?

Tvad, what sayest thou?

-- Al :)

Jeff - You have wasted enough time on Rowland and Nuforce. Get rid of that stuff before the word gets out about Sunfire. Once that happens, the separates won't be worth a plugged nickel. However, gambler that I am, I'll take them off your hands for an even $1000, if you pay the freight to 81521.
Do you have the boxes?

Jeffkad; You will notice a further remarkable difference if you do the following:

1. Get another Sunfire amp and run one channel through each of them. You'll notice a much better sense of channel separation and imaging.

2. Contact Marigo Audio and ask them to audition a pair of Ultra 5 power cords, one for each amp. You will notice a great improvement in how real, natural and detailed the music will sound.

I have found that spending a few days with a new amp, getting accustom to its sonic signature, attributes, etc and then reinstall the previous amp will reveal the better amp with your current components. I've heard a few Carver/Sunfire amps & was astonished how good they really are. I wasn't overly impressed with the Nuforce on my speakers.

Can somebody please tell me what's going on with this website. I can't navigate through Audiogon without a totally different website popping up?

Can somebody please tell me what's going on with this website. I can't navigate through Audiogon without a totally different website popping up?

See this thread -- they are aware of the problem and apparently it should be resolved shortly:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1242849866

Regards,
-- Al

oh, man, i've never liked the voltage output on my sunfire anywhere near as well as i've liked the current output and i've had quite a few speakers to try them on.

they sound good on bass drivers, but not as good on the mids and tweeters, IMHO. the configuration is fun to play with, though.

if i recall, the surrounds are all voltage, but it doesn't matter as much there. the cinema grand mark ii has the optional current output for the center channel as well, where some iterations of the amp don't (i later discovered i don't like center channels on principle, but that's a different story...).

good stuff, glad you're having fun.

Sorry but I have a hard time buying into the notion that one has to be educated to 'listen' properly for slight differences, especially in this instance. Perhaps to study the subtle points of a system's character there is validity to analytical listening, but really it is when the difference is clear and not suble that we discover the special components.

I've had the NuForce reference 9s in my system for a while. They are admirable in some ways. One can't help but be impressed by their clarity and apparent speed. But, ultimately, I found them un-involving. I can see how one might prefer the Sunfire overall. The Ref 9s just didn't have what I need in a component - that ability to emotionally connect me to the music to recreate reality in my living room. Some components just have that - well, for want of a better word - magic.

I certainly agree that the NuForce amps are very transparent; the most transparent that I have ever heard in fact. In my opinion its a strength rather then a weakness however.

Find a preamp that you like and the Ref 9s will pass its sound. I've never used a SS pre with the amps and do not think it would be to my liking. Way too much of a good thing (clinical).

My Cary SLP-98 leans a bit (ok quite a bit) to the romantic side but I never find it syrupy or slow. I have tried it with different amps which always seem to slow the system down and again give too much of a good thing to my ear (leaning further to the warm side this time).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my experience these amps make component matching much simpler. The pre-amp/amp interaction is minimal.. so just pick the pre that you like and run it through the Ref 9s - you will receive a larger version of it on the other side.

There are many ways to arrive at the sound you want but this is my experience with these amps.

Interesting thread. Bump.