Enjoy your Thanksgiving, Charles. Not a big football fan (which, here in Texas, is heresy) but do enjoy your day and thanks for all your help and advice. :-)
What's the greatest bargain in SET these days?
Hi, Gang,
I response to my recent review of the Reference 3A De Capo BE speaker, someone wrote that if you really want to hear them sing, you should try them with a SET amp, or words to that effect.
That got me thinking. The De Capo's are 92 db efficient, which (correct me if I'm wrong) seems kind of borderline for low-power SET amps.
In any event, right now I'm running mine with a pair of Manley Mahi mono-blocks. They are switchable from triode (20 watts) to "ultra linear" (40 watts). I run them in triode all the time, and in my room, the volume knob almost never goes past 9 o'clock; more would just be too loud.
All that said, what do you guys think of running the De Capo's with a SET amp? And if I did, what's the best bargain in SET's these days?
Thanks!
I response to my recent review of the Reference 3A De Capo BE speaker, someone wrote that if you really want to hear them sing, you should try them with a SET amp, or words to that effect.
That got me thinking. The De Capo's are 92 db efficient, which (correct me if I'm wrong) seems kind of borderline for low-power SET amps.
In any event, right now I'm running mine with a pair of Manley Mahi mono-blocks. They are switchable from triode (20 watts) to "ultra linear" (40 watts). I run them in triode all the time, and in my room, the volume knob almost never goes past 9 o'clock; more would just be too loud.
All that said, what do you guys think of running the De Capo's with a SET amp? And if I did, what's the best bargain in SET's these days?
Thanks!
Showing 50 responses by rebbi
Charles, Last night, I was thinking that I should just get myself a Dynamo and be done with it and have a bunch of money left over for re-tubing. However, since the consensus here seems to be that the 300 B is something really special and that I should try to move in that direction to "get it right the first time" if possible, then it looks like I am looking at either the Audio Note Kit 1 or that Audio Nirvana piece from David. The appealing thing about the Audio Note proposition is that I would know exactly what's in it, I would have the fun project of building it, and it is clearly heavily upgradable. Brian was nice enough to make me an offer with the better capacitors at dealer cost ($160) and the shipping fee waived. I also get three inputs and, I would imagine, better resale value, if needed, than pretty much any other kit because of the Audio Note reputation. Anyway, this would bring me in just a hair under my maximum budget. The only thing that gives me pause about this option is something I read in the assembly manual, which is online. It says something like, "The stock tubes are fine for testing and burning in, but a few months down the road you may want to get yourself some better tubes." The idea that I am going to have to sink more money into the amp so soon for it to show what it can really do is a little disconcerting! Thoughts? As for the Audio Nirvana amp, it is very tempting because of the price and the possibility of discovering "The Greatest Bargain in SET Amps These Days." :-) My hesitation would come from the untested nature of the beast, and from the fact that David seems to be, as far as I can tell, running this operation out of his home. (His wife picked up the phone the first time I called and I heard, "honey, you have a customer!") Of course, this is not unheard of in the Wacky World of Audio Manufacturing and distribution, but it does make you think. Of course, on the other hand, it's probably exactly is kind of small-scale operation that makes his pricing structure possible. He or, in this case, his engineer friend, design the products, have them manufactured in China, and then sell them here at a very low profit margin. When I spoke with him yesterday, I asked him about the warranty situation. He said, in effect, that he hadn't had to think about it all that much because he had never had any returns on his first tube amp, which is a 6V6, Push-pull affair. I told him that I have a great, local repair shop here and I'm pretty sure he said that if it needed repairs, he would pay for them to be done locally. I do have a certain hesitation around buying gear made in China. I really, really don't want this wonderful thread to be diverted into the topic of eastern versus western made audio gear. There are plenty of other rancorous threads for that purpose! I am not concerned about quality, because I know that there is some superb stuff coming out of China these days. I am more concerned about the ethics of relatively well off people in "first world" countries buying their luxury goods on the backs of workers in lower wage countries. But again, I'm not judging any of you who don't feel the same way or have the same qualms about this. But I'll call David today and ask about parts quality. |
Charles1dad, Spoke with David at Common Sense Audio about modding the 300b amp. He opined that the whole modding thing is bullish*t. He said that they did many prototypes and listened to many different parts and simply chose the ones that sounded the best. He said, "yes, you can mod it, but it'll sound worse." So there you go. |
Charles, Thank you for the good wishes. Ultimately, there were several things that swayed me in this direction. First, I did want to buy from an established company that would give me good service and support down the road. in addition, Charles, your advice to go for quality out of the gate made sense to me. I also like the fact that the amplifier is easily upgradable down the road with parts that are certified by the manufacturer – there is an upgrade path. Maybe, a year from now, I will have saved up enough money for the fancy transformers – who knows? I ruled out the bottle head kits because I really decided that I wanted a one piece, integrated solution. As it now stands, I have to flip five different switches just to play a CD, and I'm getting tired of it. :-) by the way, the cost of the bottle head Paramount amplifiers and their best preamplifier is basically the same as the cost of this Audio Note Kit, for what that's worth I also like the fact that Brian from Audio Note was so willing to work with me on price. I am getting the nicer capacitors at something like 50% off retail, and he is also throwing in free shipping, which is worth $125. (The kit ships in two boxes, one for the transformers alone, and one for the tubes and the rest of the parts.) Brian told me that the transformers in this kit are really first rate – they are, as we have been saying, in many ways, the heart of the design and they need to be good. If memory serves, I think he told me that these transformers are worth around $200 a pop. I did, by the way, ask him about the quality of the tubes. He said that they provide basic tubes because most people will choose to put in fancier stuff no matter what. He also said that sometimes people want to know if they can buy the kit without the tubes. But he doesn't want someone to risk, for example, expensive Western Electric tubes in an untested amplifier and see the tubes go up in smoke the first time they power the thing on. He also mentioned that Audio Note Kits is entering into an agreement with another company that will provide discounted tubes to Audio Note Kit customers, so that's great. As for Commonsense Audio, I will say that I really enjoyed speaking with Dave, the proprietor. He's a very interesting guy. And I do hope that somebody who reads this thread will buy one of those amps so we can find out if they really are the bargain of the millennium. The fact that it seemed that he hadn't really thought through how such an amplifier was going to be serviced and that the warranty was only one year gave me pause. So, yes, I have paid a premium for the Audio Note Kit, but I feel good about it. I do understand what you guys are saying about rising standards of living in China. As I said, I don't want to have this thread get caught up in that important and a complicated debate. But once again, I do appreciate all the advice you guys have given me and I will keep you posted when I start working on the amp! |
Mikirob, I remember having so much fun building the Bottlehead Seduction phono preamp. I don't get to work with my hands in my "normal" life and I find it very relaxing. And thanks for the good wishes. Gsm, Never occurred to me that Amazon.com sells tubes! We have one of their Visa cards that earns us points on Amazon, so I see some cheaper tube upgrades in my future. :-D |
Roxy 54, This is great to hear, thanks for chiming in! I am glad to hear as well that the 300b tubes are decent for a starter. I'm not sure what the brand of the caps is; in the invoice he describes it as "silver gold oil." So, we'll see. I had also read somewhere that a better volume attenuator helps. I'll ask Brian. |
Thanks for all the good wishes and feedback, folks. Corresponded with Brian again. (Very nice, very enthusiastic guy, by the way.) I was confused at first because the web site says that the kit comes standard with Mundorf gold/silver/oil caps. Brian apologized and said that's an error on the site that he'll get fixed. The kit comes standard with Mundorf Supremes and the two upgrades they offer are the Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil (which I'm getting) or the AN Copper. I checked on Partsconnexion.com and the Mundorf Supremes go for about $15 each but the Silver/Gold/Oils go for about $60 each... bottom line is he's giving me about an $80 discount off retail on the better caps. As for the volume attenuator, it's going to have to wait. I really do have to stick to my budget. As I'm sure some of you can relate, this audio adventure takes place in the context of a family that needs to be sheltered, educated, clothed and fed. ;-) I mentioned upgrading the volume pot to Brian and he said that it's about a $200 upgrade and that I should just talk to him when I'm ready to do it but that it's "not worth it now." Also, the kit comes with a nice PCB for the stock pot, which he recommends for a first-time install. |
Mikirob, Thanks. As I said, not a football fan, but I grew up in Philly and live in Texas, so if I root for anybody, it'll be the Eagles (which were the dogs of the NFL all throughout my childhood). As for tubes, there's another option. ANK is partnering with Grant Fidelity as their tube upgrade partner, offering ANK customers a nice discount on tubes (See this.) |
Roxy54, Thanks for the kind good wishes. The kit should be delivered in a week or so. Timing should be good because I anticipate having a lighter work schedule in December/January. My plan is to work on this project VERY SLOWLY and carefully. I'm considering blogging the experience and if I do I'll post a link to it here. |
smctigue1, Thanks for the post. I'm really surprised that your experiment with the Decware Torii was unsuccessful. How so? I actually looked hard and long at Decware and nearly bought the SE34I.4 or "Rachael," but thought that with those small transformers and at 6 watts it would lack the oomph to drive the De Capo's. Now Brian Smith of Audionote was confident that the Kit 1 would drive the De Capo's with authority, so, we'll see! My room is fairly small and closed in and I sit around 8.5 feet from my speakers, so I think I'll be okay... |
Charles1dad, Yes, I'd love to see a head to head comparison of the Dynamo and either the Decware Zen Torii (25 watt PP) or the "Rachael" (6 watt SE). I considered both of those amps until I decided to shoot for 300b and went for the Audio Note Kit 1. As for the quality of the "iron" of the output transformers, the ad copy for the "Rachael" says: "OUTPUT TRANSFORMER COUPLING The Zen is a very stable amplifier capable of driving all high efficiency loudspeakers because of it's transformer-coupled output stage. This creates a hand-shake between the amplifier and the loudspeaker and protects the speaker from DC voltages should a tube ever fail. Of course most tube amplifiers use output transformers, which tend to be the most expensive single components in the amp. This is where most amplifiers fall short by trying to impress you with big heavy transformers of average or low quality. The more power the amp has, the more likely it is to use moderate quality transformers - at best." Interesting, eh? |
Brownsfan, Thanks for the kind words. I totally agree that the proof is in the listening And yes, you are correct: after all this investigation as well as the effort to build this amp, I may find that the Audio Note Kit 1 sounds like a total pile of poop in my humble listening room. I mean, I certainly hope not, but listening with my gear and my music in my room will be the only meaningful way to evaluate this whole process. As for my patience, well, a lot of that had to do with a tight budget; not a lot of room for costly mistakes! |
Darkmoebius, Thanks a lot! The more I think about it, the more IÂ’m remembering buying that first good system. I dragged a vinyl copy of James Taylor's "That's Why I'm Here" to any number of audio salons all over metro NYC, where I was living a the time. What sold me on the Vandy's was that they were the only speaker that seemed to nail the bass guitar glissando near the beginning of the title song. :-) Oh, that, and the lack of a boxy sound. |
Mikirob, Thanks a bunch for the nice words. The IEC power section is built, as is the hardwired part of the 300 B section. I am just now, at this very moment, sitting here about to embark on populating the PCB for the driver section -- currently scratching my head over reading resistor values (colored stripes... argh!) Onward! :-) |
Well, first package arrived on Friday. This 15 pound package contains everything except the transformers. Transformer box due on Tuesday. Then a third box shortly thereafter because Brian ran short on a few tubes. He encouraged me to take inventory of the box, so look for unboxing photos and commentary on the blog soon! |
New Kit 1 blog posts are up for those who are interested... |
Jetrexpro, I haven't taken it to that level but I have been very, very careful to read the instructions several times before making anything permanent. In some ways, this is - so far, anyway - an easier kit to build than my Bottlehead Seduction phono preamp, which I built 4 or 5 years ago. I seem to remember having to solder teeny little components on to the leads of valve bases in a rather cramped space that was very challenging. So far, the nice, clean layout of the 300 B driver PCB, which is what I'm currently working on, is making this an easier process. The only thing that's been at all frustrating is that there have been a few design changes to this 2014 edition and I'm working with a combination of the 2010 edition of the manual and a beta of the 2014 manual. Sometimes it's been a little confusing but Brian is very accessible to his customers so I've never gotten stuck for too terribly long. |
Lots of new posts on the Audionote Kit 1 build blog. Enjoy! |
Map, At this point, with the 3 PCB's all built up, most of what's left is "inter-wiring," that is, doing the wiring between the various PCB's themselves and between the driver PCB and the 300 B hard-wired "tag strip." There's also a little wiring and connecting to be done at some of the valve bases. The last step is to solder in the big Mundorf caps and install the RCA connectors, speaker posts and volume pot. Then, I'll take various measurements to see if all looks well. After that, it's add in the tubes and power up. So I'd say I'm more than 2/3 of the way into the build, but there's still a good deal more to do. And I'm a slow worker! ;-) |
So TAS has finally come out with Dick Olsher's review of the Coincident Dynamo 34 SE. I find it an odd read... one of those reviews where the conclusion doesn't quite seem to match the body of the review. He describes his dismay that his rectifier tube kept arcing on startup, which he said Coincident describes as "a normal event." His review unit then kept blowing fuses and had to be shipped back to Coincident. The problem turned out to be a failed filter cap. He lauds the unit for its exceptionally dimensional sound stage, but says that the lows and mids fell short of his Primaluna DiaLogue Premium. He then starts tube rolling, and after replacing the Chinese EL 34's and the 6SL7 with Tung Sol's, he feels the amp starts to show what it can do, although he cautions that because of the amp's 10.2 ohm source impedance off the 8 ohm taps, speaker matching is crucial. On his Basszilla DIY speakers (odd choice for a review!) he found the tonal balance "distinctly lightweight." In the end, after a digression on the psychology of perceived value vs. price in the field of wine connoisseurship, he concludes that the Dynamo "may not always yield the most accurate tonal balance, but the crux of the matter is foot-tapping musical bliss." Your thoughts? |
Brownsfan, Thanks for the reply. Yes, Tim Smith's review was much more thorough. Israel points out in his manufacturer's reply that Olsher never even mentions that the amp has a headphone section... And I agree that if the stock rectifier is a turkey, then supply your customers with a better one. Heck, charge an extra $50 and supply a better one. $1299 may be a bargain for this kind of product, but it's still not small change. As for the Kit 1, it's getting there. My backordered tubes shipped today. A few more hours of wiring and I should be ready to test. Charles, I agree with your point about system synergy, which is why using some one-off, DIY speaker for evaluation purposes makes so little sense. We know almost nothing of this speaker. Or, my goodness, if you suspect a mismatch, borrow a different set to try. Oddly, Israel Blume expresses gratitude and appreciation in his manufacturer response. I mean, in the end it's a positive review but the middle section's pretty mixed. |
Folks, Somebody further up the thread just asked about where the 10.1 ohm output impedance figure came from. I don't have the issue sitting here in front of me, but I'm pretty certain Dick Olsher took the measurement himself as opposed to getting it from Coincident. I'm guessing he was trying to figure out the odd results he felt he was getting. Israel Blume didn't challenge the figure in his Manufacturer Response, so I guess it's pretty accurate. Not like TAS to take measurements, but there you go. |
Grannyring: As to your question about a 100% hard-wired SET kit, the Bottlehead Paramount 300B mono blocks come pretty close. There are, I believe, two very small PCB's in each block, but for the most part it's hard wired all the way. Although the Kit 1 is a larger and more elaborate project than the Bottlehead Seduction phono pre that I built about 4 years ago, in some ways the Bottlehead was the harder build precisely because it's almost entirely hard wired. There are teeny little resistors that, for example, had to be soldered in between the pins of the valve bases. That said, the Bottlehead designs are terrific (Paul Joppa is a first-rate designer). Additionally, their manuals are excellent and their online support forums are very active with supportive users. No question goes unanswered more than an hour or two. I seriously, seriously considered building the Paramounts with their Bee Pre 300B based preamp instead of the AN Kit 1. In fact, I could've saved myself around $700 on the whole package during their Black Friday sale. But by the time you bought those three kits, the cost was about even with the AN Kit 1, and I'd also decided I wanted to simplify my rig down to an integrated amp. Anyway, Grannyring, if you're interested in building a hard wired set kit, I'd give the Bottlehead Paramounts a serious look. Additionally, if you buy a preamp and amp together, you save 10% off the total. |
Mikirob! I think she'd love building that Kit. It's kinesthetically very pleasing to watch the thing come together. I especially enjoyed populating the PCB's with the resistors... it's somehow very satisfying. I'll repeat what I said earlier. It's like cooking a meal. If you enjoy the process of chopping, blending, and so on, you'll get good results. If you're in a hurry to eat, you may not. So if your wife can take pleasure in the build process itself, she'll have a blast with it. |
Charles, Yes. "Caucasian Blackplate"is another Bottlehead employee who often posts on SET Asylum. But I agree that there's a lot of personalized vitriol on that board that can make it difficult to wade through. Interesting thing about the Bottlehead designs is that they feature Joppa's "parafeed" topology (I have no idea what that means so don't ask) and they also are solid state rectified rathe than tube rectified, for whatever that's worth. |
Nyaudio98, I don't have personal experience with them, but the various Primaluna integrated amps seem to be a good match with the De Capo's from what I've read. Look at the used market for bargains there. I also thought that the Manley gear I had (I had the Mahi mono-blocks but you could look for the Stingray integrated version) had nice synergy with the De Capos, but again, you'd be looking at the used marked since the prices at Manley have really shot up recently. If you want to go SET, there are several options. You could probably get good pricing on an Antique Sound Lab SET if you call Tash at Reference 3A. You can also go to http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/nirvanaamps.html and check out their 300B SET, which is ridiculously low priced at $1550 with free shipping! Granted, I don't know anything about that amp beyond what's on the web site, but you get a satisfaction guarantee. I would stay away from cheap, no-name tube amps from eBay, for sure. |