can handle when equipped with the more popular KAB mods(damper, rewire, power supply)? I am not an audiophile, and have really enjoyed the modestly priced Denon 110 on my player, but would still be interested to know what the possibilities are-Cheers
I'm not saying I don't hear the transformator with MM carts either :) It's easy, Put the needle on the record, in the last grooves. And don't play it just switch the power know ON/OFF. When it's on, you will hear it, on maximum volume of the speakers.
@chakster do the
isonoe feets
make any difference? I have serious doubts about these.
Never had any problems with MC on SL1210mk2, my last MC cartridge tested on that deck was Audio-Technica ART2000, i think i even tried Zyx Airy, but at that time i had much better turntable and tonearm. Anyway i have never experienced any noise in whatever part of the record on SL1210mk2
@chakster Well, I don't think there is anything wrong with the stock PSU or the stock tonearm.
The problem is MC cartridges are too sensitive, and when it goes to the inner part of the vinyl, it gets some of the electromagnetic field. So I wonder, why not just to move it outside, or try to put something that reduces the field, between the transformer and the cartridge?
I'm fine with stock PSU and stock matt on those decks, i just stopped all the mods of 1210mk2 after full rewire, isonoe feets, fluid damper and various top of the line vintage MM cartridges like Technics EPC-205c mk4, 100c mk3, Glanz MF61, Grace F-9F, Grado etc.
If you want to mod PSU then your next step would be a tonearm.
.. and then a new turntable because of the plinth :)
:) Well, actually after I replaced the headshell with Audio Technica MG-10 and Oyade Heashell leads, the sound is really amazing. Now one thing bothers me.. it's the stock PSU. Isn't it enough just to move the transformer outside?
Actually, after many listening tests, I discovered that the Achromat Mat is reducing the treble... very strange. I made both recording with stock mat, and with the achromat mat, and seems like the problem is coming from the mat. I gave the rips to several friends, they all like better the stock mat recording. Is this normal?
And one more question.. With Denon DL301 MK2 I have highs, but.. they are kinda not so in your face. All my other needles, mostly AT, gave me very strong high frequencies.. With Denon.. they are kinda off, although I put 1KOhm on the preamp. Wondering.. maybe it still breaks in, it's not more than 10 hours running time, so I guess I'll have to wait.
But.. I'm not saying they are missing, they are just not so everywhere in the air, but kinda backward on the stage. Does anyone else experience this while running in this cartridge?
I hope it will loosen.. with time. I'm not sure if there is tension now, but the Audio Hi Fi News testing record tracks fine, the first 3 tracks. Only the torture track is not tracked well.. So I guess I'm fine.
No i don't use twisted pairs in my Lustre GST-801 tonearm for maximum flexibility. I use 4 single run of discovery tonearm wire. You can do the same for your Technics, but twisted wires also works ok, discovery wire is flexible, but not the most flexible.
@chakster I replaced the wiring, and I must say the sounds is really impressive. I have a question though, now I'm in doubt. Do you unsplit the cables when you put them in the tonearm. Because I put them as they came (i.e. splitted, like in the picture).
Btw my upgrade plan - I changed the mat, the cartridge, I have the discovery wiring, need to set it. I ordered oyaide silver headshell wiring. The only thing left is the headshell and the isonoe feet. :)
@lordvampire Grace HS-3 is lightweight shell if you want classic japanese vintage headshell, better one is Grace HS-5 carbon headshell with treated holes for the screws in the finger lift of the shell - that’s nice option to screw the cart from the bottom, not from the top of the shell (no nuts needed in this case). You can also look for the Orsonic AV1 shell (it looks like a catamaran boat :)
For the ultimate, but very expensive, look for the new ZYX LIVE-18B from Nakatsuka-San, i use this one with my Glanz MF61 cartridge.
Technics was made stock to use Stevenson alignment, you're right that Baerwald cart needs to be very forward, so you need headshell with longer slots to make it work. Jelco is a good option with adjustable azimuth reasonably priced. Try setting antiskate lower to equal or a bit less than the VTF setting. Cheers, Spencer
@chakster I need advice on the headshell, can you recommend me some nice one, with mass less or equal to the mass of the stock technics headshell. And another question - I need to buy some good headshell wires. Can you recommend me something good for Denon DL-301mk2
Another problem I have is I can't really align it in Baerwald protractor on the technics stock headshell, because even the cartridge is in the most front position, the end point of the protractor is forward 1mm from the tip of the stylus. But it doesn't seem to be bad for the sound, the sound is perfect. My settings: Height: 0mm Weight: 1.4g Antiskating: 2
I don't know if it's optimal, but on the stock technics.. this seems to work.
Nice, I got rewired (internally) my rare Lustere GST-801 tonearm today with Discovery Wire and Cardas male 5 pin DIN connector. My ex flatmate did the soldering nicely. 4 years ago he got started with technics sl1200mk2 rewiring for himself and then for most of our friends, now his skills are very very good.
I think for the first time you’d better ask someone (experienced) to do that for you and you can watch and learn, i’m sure then you can do it yourself.
My advice is to bypass the "motherboard" when you will have to soldering tonearm wires to the phono cable. There must be a motherboard, but just to fix the cables on it, the stripped ends of the cables should be directly soldered (tonearm wires directly to phono cable) without shite "motherboard" in between like a connector (avoid the "motherboard" if you don’t want signal degradation).
Isonoe designed them for professional use, when you play records near powefull sound system with 20 000 watts for example. The bass feedback is the weakest point of the technics sl1200mk2 in this situation. Replacing the stock feets people can get rid of this problem completely, so these isonoe feets are amazing. If you are listening with headphones maybe yoy don't need them, but even for design purpose isonoe feets are the best, i use silver isonoe feets on my sl1210mk2 mods. Isonoe feets are fully adjustable and very well enginered, so you can level the turntable properly and get rid of any feedback/vibrations etc. I have not seen any other feets that even looks good, most of the others are ugly. I did not pain full price for them, bought new on ebay with discount. At that time my cartridge on upgraded sl1210mk2 was Technics EPC-205c MK4. I'm pretty sure you will be happy with isonoe even at home use only. This is top quality product!
@chakster Hi, I still wonder if
isonoe feet will do things better, if I listen only on headphones, i.e. there are no vibrations caused from outside sources. Or the feet kinda damp the vibrations from the motor and transformator as well?
Sure, but Discovery Tonearm Wire from here if you have to rewire just 1 tonearm. Their price is $24 per foot (for 4 colored tonearm wires) + shipping from Canada.
You're right about the bearings of 1210, i got mine since 1996 and they are still works fine (absolutely no problem with bearings), but fluid damper is good option for high compliance cartridges, i just don't like the KAB fluid damper design, cos it's collect dust everyday. honestly when it comes to serious investment it's just better to buy Technics SP10mk2 and EPA-100 tonearm (what i did).
I think Spencer ( sbank ) meant the DL-103, not 301
Well, it looks like anything is bad match for the stock tonearm.. but I need to put some cartridge there :) I still don't want fluid damper, I think the engineers from Panasonic knew what they were doing. The only problem is the wires, and I will change them. Btw, I really would like to make upgrades step by step, so I can test very well what is the effect after each change, by analyzing the sound + the WAVs downloaded on my computer.
P.S. The bearings actually is one of the very best parts on the 1210, this thing is rough, and proven in time and abuse by so many djs.. I have the feeling that if something is working, don't touch it. Noone knows the long term effect on the new fancy bearing on the motor of the 1210 which is what makes this turntable unique, and its stable speed. Probably it will have some effect on a 1$k+ cartridge, but for the ones I'm looking for, I doubt it.
P.S.#2 Why do you think DL-301 is not a good match, actually I did the math, it looks very good match technically.
BTW i got a pair of those KAB dampers for a long time, the silicon fluid bath is open and collect dust all the time, i think it's better to replace the tonearm for something better to fill the silicon inside (like on jelco). This open silicon bath is not cool.
Your upgrade plan sounds solid, but you didn't mention two of the most effective: bearing upgrade & KAB fluid damper. Here is a good resource for you: http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?46-The-Techiepedia Also, FWIW, I agree that the 301 is a bad choice for that arm. There are plenty of warm, rocking carts that will be better match(e.g. Dynavector). Cheers, Spencer
The wire kit you’re talking about is in fact this cardas litz 33 awg cable http://www.ebay.com/itm/400731159612 But you need two of this for stereo (single run for each channel).
And for internal tonearm wire this single run (500mm piece) is long enough for two turntables (two tonearms): http://www.ebay.com/itm/302220538153
If you can do the soldering yourself all you need is two RCA connectors to make your own cable using those Cardas 33 awg lits configuration.
Or buy the kit someone else made for you (maybe for higher price).
P.S. I think for internal wiring Discovery Cable is better as it’s more flexible. Discovery tonearm wire used in Tri-Planar and Graham high-end tonearms.
Thanks again. Yes, DL-103R with a proper headshell becomes too heavy, for the stock tonearm, I did the calculations.. From what I read the best match as MM is probably Nagaoka MP500, but I really want to try MC to hear what is it all about. So I'll take a risk with 301 MK2. The only problem is I don't see a good headshell around 6g for it in ebay :)
Btw, do you know what is the material in technics stock headshell, maybe it's not that bad after all, and I don't need to change it. Just new lead wires will be fine.
I wouldn’t change the rubber mat until you have a cartridge that works fine for you. The reviews means nothing for me, the quality of SAEC SS-300 is better than anything else on earth, especislly the overpriced new toys. If you are looking for new stuff then Boston Audio Mat 2 is another option.
Denon DL-103 is the worst choise for your tonearm, it’s been said so many times here, for this low compliance heavy monster you need at least Jelco tonearm.
Your tonearm is for mid compliance MM cartridges or mid compliance MC.
Technics own vintage MM cartridges works fine with this tonearm, headshell integrated versions like epc-100c mk3 or 205c mk4. If you want warmer carts try MF (moving flux) Glanz MF31 - 51 - 71 and Astatic MF100 - 200 cartridges, they are very good too. Garrott P77 is great, Grace F9-U and F-9F are amazing. Pioneer PC-1000 mk2 is outstanding. Those cartridges are better than more expensive MCs and i have tested them all on sl1210mk2 in the headphones before switched to my reference tonearms and turntables.
Those Denons are just cheap and easy to buy new, many people use them for this reason. It’s not so easy to find top vintage MM cartridges, but when you got them in perfect condition you don’t need an MC, because there is nothing to lose if you load your MM at 100k ohms instead of standard 47k. Read Raul’s MM thread here (tons of information from the best audiogon contributors)!
SAEC SS-300 looks expensive, and I read a lot of reviews for achromat mat for 1210.. it looks like it's better than the stock rubber mat. So I'll try it. But still the main question is what cartridge.. I really liked to try MC cartridge, and I guess it will happen that I will try both 301 and 103 and decide for my taste..
I tried AT150mlx but it was too bright for me, on Ifi phono 2 with 100pf load. I changed the external wires with very good ones, so probably it's because I need to rewire the tonearm.
@lordvampire Discovery Tonearm Cable is great and not so expensive, for Technics tonearm you need 25cm, but it’s not easy to find, this cable is 4 wire (4 colour) is sold by the foot. You can buy from partsconnexion.com in Canada. I don’t know any other seller who can provide it. Discovery wire is more flexible than Cardas Tonearm Wire, which is widely available and a bit cheaper, but also good option for resonable price. If you want Cardas buy it from thebetteraudiocompany on ebay, they can also custom made headshell lead wires with pins for you from the same Cardas cable. My pair of 1210mk2 rewired with Cardas internally, but my external RCA phono cable is Zu Audio Mission. The 1210mk is not my main turntable, but it was fully upgraded long time ago, before i bought Sp10mk2.
I just ordered Discovery tonearm wire for my Lustre GST-801 tonearm as i wanted something better than Cardas. Another option is Audio Note silver tonearm wire, but this is very expensive.
Personally i don’t care about resonance frequency anymore: 8Hz or 10Hz or 11Hz it doesn’t really matter and anything from 7 to 12Hz is fine, you will not hear the difference!
Most of the MC cartridges are low or mid compliance, while the MM can be mid, high or very high compliance. Your technics was designed for MM cartridges, but mid compliance MC are OK to use too.
Headshell and screws should be non magnetic - that’s all.
The weight of the shell depends on the compliance of the cartridge, the lower the compliance the heavier headshell required on this arm. But when it’s too heavy it will be impossible to balance the tonearm even with small additional counterweight. This tonearm is not designed for heavy cartridge/headshell combination!
I don’t think you are hearing the power supply, the lower the signal on your MC the better shielded phono cable you need. In real life you will never use maximum gain. This is not a high-end turntable anyway, especially with MC cartridge, try it with MM instead for noise problem. I can’t remember any noise problems with MMs i’ve tried on my 1210mk2. I would never invest money for external power supply for this deck, it’s much better to buy another turntable if you want to know what technics is all about (try SP10mk2 with EPA-100 tonearm).
http://www.needledoctor.com/Denon-DL-103R-Cartridge It looks like this cartrige makes perfect match with Technics stock tonearm, when used with 12gr headshells which are easier to find :) Maybe I should rethink my choise, but from what I read 301 is more warm, which is something I really like... But actually I'm not sure because it is so subjective, does anyone listen to both cartriges (103R and 301 MK2) to tell what are there strengths and weaknesses.
And one more question. I can hear the power supply when I turn maximum gain on anything. I know it's the power supply because when I turn off the turntable this low noise stops.. Will the achromat mat help to reduce it? Or maybe better feet? I still don't want to touch the original technics power supply.
@chakster Hi, there, thanks for the perfect reply. I made the calculations, and actually it turned out that for the resonant point of view, the headshell should be even less than 6g, in order to match the perfect 10Hz resonant frequency. But I also read that MC cartriges need higher mass headshells, for some reason. Maybe the original technics headshell is perfect after all, but I will have to change its wires, because they are very basic. Also, I'm not sure about it's material, from another forum I read MC should Not be used with headshells that have anything metal on them.
About Discovery Tonearm Wire .. Is this the best choice for technics stock arm? Or at least is it good enough for me, after all I'm not gonna use it with $1k+ cartriges after all. But it seem cheap, for such an important thing as the wires for the tonearm.
@chakster Nice post, good advice. @lordvampire , "all the good headshells I see are 12g". No. Yamamoto makes a number of lighter ones including 7g Boxwood. Cheers, Spencer
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