Hope he made the right choice in eleven years! I guess some guys really take their time! |
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nothing can beat Merlin VSM in a small room
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I'm not unhappy with the tonal balance of the room, just the imaging.... I'm working on isolating the sources better (just built a sand box topped with 1" stone plate for the VPI), but keep wanting more...
In terms of current placement, I'm currently working according to Cardas' recco's:
-golden rectangles (48 inches from back wall, 30 inches from side walls) &
-near field
I think the golden rectangle approach helped (although I use more toe-in than he reccomends), but I keep moving further back than the near field equilateral triangle...
Another tweak I'm using is the following:
Take a slightly out of square piece of MDF, put 4 woodscrews through it (so that they stick out about 3/4 inch). Put this thing screw side down on the carpet (spikes)... then I put 4 X #4 vibrapods over the screws & the speakers on top.
This helps with the imaging....
Thanks again for all your thoughts, keep 'em coming...
brent |
You already have the Dunlavys? If so, what specifically don't you like/want to improve? If not, have you listened to any speakers in this room and what were your results? |
I had an opportunity to audition the new PMC DB-1 mini-monitors in a small dedicated listening room (12x10) and thought that they were very good. The bass was much more focused and they imaged wonderfully. At times could be on the bright side, but overall they are the best I have heard under 1k. If you are looking to spend more I would highly recommend the more refined ProAc 1SC..... |
I agree with forever above (and would like to apologize for my HD600 remark, as I know you have to live with this room....).
I especially like the idea of using a moderate-sized, QUICK-woofered 2-way monitor, VERY carefully set up in a near-field arrangement. This will allow you to erase the sidewalls (by sitting close to the speakers, and having them away from the sidewalls). Then move this "triangle" around to smooth out bass freq resp as best you can.
The Revel M20 would be an outstanding choice at $1500 or so; the Spendor S3/1p at $900...and a myriad of other sub-1K
2-ways with UNbloated bass.
Yes your room is almost overwhelmingly challenging. Be sure to "erase" it with wall-to-wall, stuffed furniture, sidewall damping, etc., to null out those early reflections, and again, move your triangle around to minimize aggregate bass nodes. You're basically accomplishing a pro near-field monitoring geometry...sprt-of a giant headphone (hence the Sennheiser quip isn't SO totally off!).
Good Luck...and stay away from big woofers...especially ported ones. remember that your ear/brain WILL fill in the bottom octave if the upper bass is quick and accurate.
Maybe even cheap Paradigm Atoms are an inexpensive experiment? |
Speaker placement and room dampening should suffice...I would experiment with this before investing in any new gear...to move beyond Dunlavy is no easy task...and more difficult since they went out of business...first off...if you have a hard surface...get a large rug...and a few rugs or sound absorbing materials on at least one side wall...start by by placing the speakers 4ft from the back wall...this should give enough depth...and most designers with first order networks recommend a listening distance of at least 6 ft...which would put your listening position at the other end of the room...and place the speakers 4-5 ft apart which should leave about 2ft or more from the sides...I wouldnt bother toeing them in...fire them straight forward...this will minimize side-wall reflections...dont waste money on an EQ...and I think u will be pleasantly surprised...your speakers also have another advantage...they are a sealed design...so the rear out of phase wave is dissipated quickly...ported designs might be problematic in this tight space... |
Ideally, yes, you're going to have, and already do have, tremendous bass response challenges in that room! (if it's a closed-in 10x11x9!). IF those are the true boundary dimmensions, you'll be hard pressed to not have a boomy sonic signature bellow 50hz, with peaks and dips a plenty! Why is this a challenge? The sound will ALWAYS sound like a SMALL ROOM BOOMY, PEAKY, ONE-NOTEY kind of sound unfortunately. If you use more bass limited monitors you're better off, and maybe add a CAREFULLY PLACED subwoofer to augment, included in VERY WELL CONSIDERED seating possition!
YOu'll have like one choice in that room that will sound LISTENENABLE (Maybe) for your speakers, and also a listening possition...nothing more. The Dunlavy's have a tiny advantage in smoothing your your bass problems, in that they have bass drivers in multiple planes(or two), as compared to speakers with one bass driver in one plane, etc.
HOWEVER, you could definitely(have to tinker) get rid of your problems here DRAMATICALLY if you BIAMP your SCIII's and put a parametric EQ on the bottom posts/woofers!!!! This will allow you to FLATTEN the bass response greatly, and thus get rid of the small room sound tremendously! Of course you'll need to adress other acoustic issues, and keep the room on the LIVE SIDE!...as small rooms are easily made more DEAD sounding with too much absorbtion.
There are other speakers you can get away with putting an EQ on the bass woofer, like a lot of 3 way designs. (B&W 804's, NHT 2.9's, Hales Transcendence(?), etc), all which might be very effective if set up well and EQ'd in your small room! This really is a must for you if you go the full range speaker route in your room.(again, if it's what you say it is).
You could however find some more managable, less fuss kind of sound in smaller monitors on stands. And you should be ok with 24-26" stands with your 9'ceiling. Granted, you'll still have MORE bass anomolies to contend with ideally, than if you PROPERLY EQ'D a pair of FULL RANGE MONITORS like your Dunlavy's!!!!! You can get em sounding very very smooth and flat, giving you a very large room bass response if you do it right with a parametric EQ!!!! Also, the speakers will sound even more dynamic if you biamp them! You'll have to check for tonal balance on some speakers when you biamp however. As some speakers aren't really designed to biamp well. I think you'll be ok if you get something like a good used strong bass amp with volume controls, like the excellent Parasound amps for bass! YOu can put that on the bottom posts, and your DNA .5 on the top! Should sound VERY GOOD! You might try...
AnywaY, those are my suggestions.
Oh, do you like the Dunlavy's well enough? Why are you considering others? Aren't getting good sound in your small room? I understand if that's the case. I used to have a smallish 10.5 X 12.5 X 8 foot room that was a real challenge to get sounding good! You'll get better results with monitors in your room with a 9' ceiling on stands than I did overall, but you're not out of the woods unless you treat your bass response problems!!
Again, you might consider biamping and EQing! I think this is the only way, without affecting your midrange and high's, to get great sound in your tiny room! YOu could play around with careful small speaker placemnt in that room *(like some used Merlin TSM-m's, or Revel M20's, or whatever), on stands, and carefully place or even eq in a sub in that room! You could even get a quick little 8" sub that's fast and musical to integrate. It will sound great if you're good at settting it up!
Hope this helps...and I'm pretty right-on about what I'm saying here for the record.(ha!)
good luck |
I'm using SC-III's in a similar sized L-shaped room. They sound very good, but I know I'm not hearing their full potential. I think the recommended placement is at least ten feet between speakers and an equal distance to the listing position, toed-in sharply. Placement on the long-wall is also supposed to be best, but obviously not an option for you.
I had very good results treating the first reflection points at the sides and ceiling with 3x3 acoustic foam tiles. More room treatment is likely to help.
I also put 2x2 brass cones between the plinth and my carpeted floor and got a nice improvement in clarity and focus.
I'm now in the midst of a crossover upgrade. I replaced all the sandcast resistors with Mills wirewounds and next I'm putting in Auricaps in place of the stock Solens.
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10x11x9??!! Sennheiser HD600. Too many nodes.... |
Try one of the stand mounted Sonus Farbers. They are front ported so can, of course, be placed closer to the wall behind them than rear ported designs. Also, the Spica TC60 may be a good choice. |
I have the exact smae room measurements and am using Dynaudio 1.3se. You have to try out speakers but here is what I chose from
Silverline Sr-17
Merlin TSM-m
Revel M20
Eggeleston Isabel
Sonus faber Electa Amator II
The new big ny on the block is the Dynaudio 25, but its pricey.
They key to my room and I imagine yours is speaker positioning and acoustic treatment. You can't have a ful range speaker becasue the bass will be out of control. My biggest tweak ever was to place my spekers on the diagonal. I place my seat near a corner and had the speakers shoot diagonally across the room. Phenomenal!
I also treated the side walls with Echo Buster treatments. I highly recommend you pick up the corner traps from them. Huge difference with slap echos
Have fun! |
Sean(dT) is right, of course. You have good speakers. Move them around. Listen to them nearfield without any interference or reflections to see if you really need to replace them. I have a problem not just with side wall reflections but ceiling reflections as well. |
Believe it or not a pair of QUAD 57s will sound terrific in a small room like that. (Remember the British rooms they were designed for...) Kinda like a big set of headphones. I had a small apartment once where I had a very similar set up and they were great. |
Without knowing anything about your current speakers (other than they have a good reputation) I'm going to suggest that you try different room placements before assuming they won't work. I am in the same situation .. small room, but no WAF to worry about, so I have large floorstanders (spica) and a sub(!) all pulled out well into the room, with my listening position in the nearfield, roughly 5.5 feet from the plane of the speakers (with the speakers roughly 5 feet apart). It works absolutely great ... fantastic imaging and deep deep bass.
I'm not saying that your speakers will work in such a small room, but I think it's worth giving it a serious try unless you have money burning a hole in your pockets, in which case go buy the Harbeths.
There are two good web pages on speaker placement, Cardas, and Audiophysic. You'll see that the two keys, particularly in a small room, are preventing boomy bass (this is achieved by Cardas by moving the speakers a long way from the rear and side walls) and preventing reflections on the side walls (Audiophysic) that can destroy imaging. To minimize the effects of side wall reflections you can toe-in the speakers so that they face you when you listen in the nearfield, so you end up with an equilateral triangle type setup.
here's the links ... saved me tons of money ...
http://www.audiophysic.de/produkte/aufstellung/aufstellung_e2.html
http://www.cardas.com/cgi-bin/main_content.cgi?area=Insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup
Feel free to email me for any hints, if this general approach interests you. |
Honestly, the Harbeth HL Compact 7ES is the best speaker suitable for a small room that I have heard. But they aren't very compact. My Compact 7's measure flat and sound more like real life than any other speakers I've ever heard. Spellbinding. They'll work just fine with yor amp.
Paul |
The Harbeth 7ES is a tremendous performer in smaller rooms.
Good luck! |
The Wilson Benesch ARC will absolutely floor you in a space this size. Pricey though. |
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