What is more accurate: magnetic anti-skating, or barrel weight attached a fishline?
I have seen turntables from Project, Music Hall, and a few other brands that still incorporate a small barrel weight attached to short fishline string which is stretched across a hooking loop to set ANTI-SKATING. It seems to be an artifact from the 1960's and 1970's tonearm design. It is also easy to lose or break
My question is how accurate is that "device" compared to magnetic anti-skating employed by many turntable manufacturers Thank you
It seems that my Signet arm has a bias built in for the record radius. A weight is at the end of an arm that is leveraged differently depending on the tone arm position. There is very little difference, but it is measurable. The answer to the question is the better designed one of any type. Even a perfectly designed spring could work quite well.. |
danvignau well said and based on my experiences I agree with you. The jokes about the fishing lines aside, whether string/line, magnets, springs, a well executed design that can be setup easily works. I have found a lesser design set up well, will out perform a "better design" not set up well. So a design that lets you set up and forget is critical to just get on and listen to the music. Lewm - No matter how you slice it, LPs rule. It is safe to say this here. This is a partisan group. But if you read the posts on this thread, or any other of the 2000 plus threads that deal with being "anxious" about anti skating ; if I was only digital, I would be staying digital. Just saying. Rauliruegas 7,630 posts Raul and not one that I have seen that offers to share information or shows any ability to set up a LT tonearm. I am referring only to Air Bearing LT tonearms; their Achilles Heel is needing clean, dry air. For this reason being in Mexico, I assuming you used other LT types. Pls share some info and enlighten us on one of the LT threads. I like learning and, I still do own pivot tonearms. The thread’s quote, so far for me, from Stringreen. "VPI’s Antiskate gizmo" priceless. big smile. Enjoy the music. |
Tangency (null points) is not enough to eliminate skating force. Lew says it quite well, but maybe it needs to be said a different way as well. I have always imagined there are two different forces involved. One, is as you describe, due to the offset of the headshell. The second due to the "North - South" position of the headshell. Imagine if you will a circle bisected horizontally through the center. The line running from the left to the center, or at least towards the center is the line a Tangential Arm would track. Assume a nine inch arm. Now imagine a six inch arm. It will be forced to the left because at that position the clockwise rotation is pushing to the left. Likewise imagine a 12 inch arm. This time it will be pushed to the right (towards the center). So to my way of thinking: before the first null point and after the second null point there will be some force away from the center towards the left edge. Between the null points there will be force towards the center. Then summing these two forces: Between the null points there will be a relatively strong center pull. Outside the null points there will be a weak pull, though in what direction and how weak I could not say. |
Indeed overhang/underhang, in conjunction with the frictional forces imparted by the record groove on the stylus are the key actors in this play. I haven’t thought about the underhang case you brought up in a while (for the pivoting, 6" arm in your example), but Indeed it would appear that its natural state is to skate outward rather than inward- this, even if one had a reverse offset angle on the the headshell. The only underhung arms,I’ve encountered were in a used record store, years ago - some DJ rigs set up for auditioniong records. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
I really don't think the method is of the greater importance but using a record such as the Shure set up disc or one's that have been coming out lately.I had my anti-skate set up based on all other factors but when I used a new set up record it showed how off I was. Using the record you want (Shure ,etc). When you have everything else set up you watch as the tThen you know its more or less how muconearm stays in the middle.It does not drift left or right is simply stay more or less in the middle. Pureharmony21@gmail.com |
Dear @ct0517 : """
7,630 posts Raul and not one that I have seen that offers to share information or shows any ability to set up a LT tonearm. """ I can't understand why you " insist " with the LT subject, no one but a few use that kind of tonearm design. Tonearm designers deciding go for the pivoted ones. Kuzma owners of Kuzma LT tonearm change it for the pivoted 4P. Analog experts as M.Lavigne or A.Porter changes theirs Rockport Sirius and Walker both with LT tonearms and today use pivoted tonearms with out the need to turn around again for LT designs. With all my respect to you in your system you just can't be aware of the LT limitations against pivot tonearm designs because for that first you have to own first rate top pivot tonearms not those non-damped very old designs that are not a good example of what a pivot tonearm " means ". In the other side the levels of IMD in your system is just to high to detect real limitations/advantages. Why? ( I take the information from your published virtual system. If already changed then my comment is out of focus. ): those 800 speakers comes at least witjh two issues that goes against top quality performance level: exist in the music signal information an equalizer/filter where that signal information is degraded and if that device is not used then low range speaker response can't meet B&W specs. In the other side those 800 woofers handle from aroun 300hz and below it incrementing the IMD aside that the FBP 600 was not designed to meet exactly and cope with the specific woofers characteristics. Here you can read about: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 If in the future you make a test in your system integrating two active subwoofers in exactly what I posted in that link you will be nicely surprised. You say you are willing to learns, well this is an unexpected opportunity where I'm totally sure you will have NO comeback/NO return after test it. Anyway, till today I don't need to change to LT tonearm design so why bother about?, I don't care about and as I said: " AS is not what can makes the differences between both kind of tonearm designs. As I told you if you are happy with your LT design good for you, I prefer pivot tonearm design. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul I have multiple, adjacent, dedicated music rooms set up using different technologies. The technologies include tape on a Studer which can be rolled between the rooms. These rooms are on a concrete poured floor. If you would like to learn more, and discuss what I have done, please contact me via my AudioGon virtual system. Just click on the Runner. |
Andrei, Here is how I think of it: A conventional pivoted tonearm is always set up such that the stylus tip overhangs the spindle. Now think of the relationship between the tonearm, the radius of the LP (from stylus to spindle) and the pivot to spindle distance, as 3 sides of a triangle. In order for the stylus/cantilever to be tangent to the LP groove, there must be a right-angle triangle formed such that the tonearm and the LP radius are sides A and B of the triangle that must meet at 90 degrees, per the Pythagorean theorem. In such a triangle, the pivot to spindle distance is side C, the "hypotenuse". Pythagorean theorem says that the length relationships of sides A, B, and C in such a triangle must be such that C-squared = A-squared + B-squared. But, because the pivot to stylus distance is always greater than the pivot to spindle distance, when you posit overhang, this condition can never be met. Thus, for a conventional pivoted tonearm, the stylus/cantilever can NEVER achieve tangency to the groove. Headshell offset is a band-aid that permits tangency at two points along the arc traced by the stylus, but as noted above, headshell offset per se creates a geometry whereby there is still some skating force even at the 2 points of tangency. |
@Raul no. not together. They represent two options for running. I am just up north fishing. I will answer your question in more detail on my virtual system thread. The cool lake environment is keeping me from wanting to go home where it is 35 degree C with the humidity 40+ Celsius weather. Watching the Rio Olympics very interesting to see green pool water and only 18 degrees Celsius. A cold front........Well it is winter there. |
I agree with the possibility that some uni-pivot arms can be somewhat stabilized with the use of anti-skating. I don't find it plausible that the use of fishing line on some anti-skate mechanisms will somehow stretch over time. We're not talking about tons of weight here folks Gimme a break! After all, these designs have some adjustability for an extreme worst case scenario. |
What is the perfect scenario? (assuming in this scenario, there is no R/L channel distortion). When one raises then lowers the arm down into the lp groove, should it arrive in the same place from which it was initially raised? This would, I assume, allow the arm to move toward the center of the lp by forward motion of it's tracing the groove in the lp. Is there the thought that more or less artificial force is needed? |
