Probably a typo on Swampwalker's part, but the tube is a 6CG7/6FQ7. It is not a 6FG7, which does exist, but I don't think is a drop in replacement for the former.
Inexpensive: read roughly $10-20/tube for good stuff. I've liked the GE's and JAN. There is one oddball tube I rolled that I cannot put my finger on right now that also was quite good. As I said, their a pretty common and not at all exotic tube. The differences in my amp, and those in your amp will not likely be the same. You should just get a few pairs and listen for yourself. I haven't found there to be as much of a difference in the NOS tubes of this type, than those in the very covetted, overused, much inflated, sometimes counterfitted 6922/ECC88 family. If your amp used those you'd be in for a roller coaster ride.
Marco |
Marco: Inexpensive: read roughly $10-20/tube for good stuff. NOW yer talkin'!! Much, much better, for my budget anyway. |
I think they would work with that amp. There are a couple of caveats:
One they need an amp with about 5+ watts - they connect to the taps like speaker cables do.
The second is as you mention the bass response. It goes very deep but is not as full as dynamic headphones. Most headphones have lots of coloration in the bass - the K1000 has the tightest and cleanest bass, but it doesn't get that flooded with bass feeling that you will get with Grado's and Senn's which you may or may not prefer. |
Typo yes
Differences btwn 404 and Lambda Pros were subtle.
Audiocubes may be a gray market dealer. IIRC, the amps they offer come with a stepdown transformer. Many folks on head-fi-org have dealt with them, check over there.
I agree with Robm321 about bass response of AKG K1000s. Fast, accurate, not boomy, similar to my Merlins. You will need to connect and re-connect at the speaker terminals if you use the same amp for speakers and K1000s, unless you insert a speaker switching box. |
Swampwalker:
Looks like you may be right about Audiocubes. They don't come right out on their web site and say, "We're a gray market dealer." But they have no US warehouse and repair units go to Japan if I'm reading their site correctly. They also talk about maybe needing a transformer for some units, etc. Guess these choices aren't always black and white.
To ALL kind and patient headphone amp discussion thread posters:
Thanks to all for the advice, which shows that I know next to nothing about headphones, or at least it seems that way. Yes, I have been paying attention, and have checked out all or nearly all of the items recommended, at least on the internet. |
I bought a Berning Personal Amp for my HD 600s and have been extremely happy with it. |
Quick update: I've decided to purchase the Stax mentioned above based on their sound, but I did have the same sweating problem that Swampwalker mentioned. So, I still may want to keep the Sennheisers, based on their comfort, and their potential, which must be pretty darn good given all the great headphone amplifier advice people have given on this thread. Not sure how (or when) to audition all of these, though. Most of the manufacturers list their prices, but it doesn't look like Singlepower does.
What about using the SRM 1 as an amp for the Sennheisers? Is there an adaptor that goes from the 5 pin Stax jack to conventional headphone type of jack?
Robm,
I saw your response to the other HD 600 thread. What made you keep your 600's if you own the AKG's?
Thanks again to all. This has been really great. I've been away from headphones for a long, long time, until now, so this has been very enlightening for me.
Bill |
You cannot use the STax amp to drive conventional phones, because the circuit includes voltage (580v I believe for the Pros) to energize the electrostatic diaphragms. |
Swampwalker,
Thanks. Now I know why people sometimes call the Stax headphone amps "energizers". Dang! |
Bill,
I kept the 600's because I wouldn't be able to get much (maybe $150) for them used. And I also kept my Grado RS-1
s. The K1000 is the ultimate, but until I get a dedicated amp I need to switch the connection and disconnect my speakers each time.
So, I wanted something that I can just throw on and listen without all the connection changes. For more serious headphone listening, I always go for the K1000's. It's one of the few components that made me feel like I would never want anything else. I'm considering buying a second pair because they are discontinued. We'll see. The one down side is you look like "Doc" from "Back to the Future" with them on.
Rob |
Robm, Thanks; I'm thinking of MAYBE keeping the Sennheisers too, but maybe not. It isn't certain yet. I'm still digesting all of this information about the different amplifiers, etc. Footnote, sort of tangential, "optional" reading: I also have a very old pair of Denon AHD-700 pro monitors. They were 120 bucks new and sounded better (to me) than the Sony MDR V6 that sold (and maybe still sell) for 100 bucks. I dug them up and listened to them the other day. Nowhere near as good as what I'd remembered. Dang again! Don't know if I'll keep those either, although one good thing about them is that they can actually be driven by a Sony Discman, and of course they kick the everlasting snot out of the stock "headphones" supplied with the Discman. (They aren't 300 ohms like the Sennheisers.) Maybe they could be sold. They sounded quite good to me in the late 80's/early 90's........ |
Mdhoover - Here's a nice sellection of NOS tubes for your amp. (Insert usual disclaimer here...no relation to the seller, blah, blah, blah) Marco |
Marco, which of those should I buy? I haven't a clue. (I suffer from "tubal retardation".) Thanks. |
I can only speak for my preamp, which is a Cary SLP-50A - I like the RCA cleartops....BUT you should ask the seller since he had a Stax setup and would know better which ones worked best in that application. They will not necessarily be the same as those that worked in my pre.
Marco |
Marco,
Thanks. I've emailed the same basic question to the seller.
Bill |
Marco,
I DID it! I took your advice and bought some tubes from the seller you steered me toward. They're on the way, and pretty soon it'll be time to get things "rolling".
-Bill |
Great Bill. Post your results once you get them. I'm sure it may be helpful to others with the Stax amp you have. I'll be curious to hear how they stack up to. Did the seller have any input on the subject? Have fun rolling!
Marco |
Marco,
Thanks for the quick reply. Yes, the seller did have recommendations, and in fact he put together a package of tubes for me. I'll let you and the others know when I know something.
-Bill |
Mdhoover,
Without a question the Creek headphone amp sold by Audioadvisor fits all the criteria you are looking for. I have it my system and it sounds awesome with the HD650s |
To anyone and everyone who knows about tubes (including Swampwalker and Marco): Swampwalker has mentioned "tube biasing" with the Stax 006t. Is that amp a later generation of the SRM T1? That's what I have. Will the tubes have to be "biased"? If so, what's that? How does one bias tubes? -Bill Footnote, somewhat tangential and "optional" reading: I recently figured out that the headphones are the Lambda Pro Signature version, not the Lamda Pro. I don't know for sure whether that's "better" or not, but I think it is. Being the brilliant audiophile that I am, I managed to accidentally damage the one of the headphones' diaphragms with the vacuum cleaner, while trying to clean out the crumb from the degenerated foam, so the headset's out at Yamasinc for repair. Based partly on what Swampwalker said and partly what I read in a review, I opted to repair these back to Lambda Pro Signature status (with the thicker diaphragm) instead of trashing them and getting a new pair of 404's, which have a thinner diaphragm. The BEST idea would have been not to damage them in the first place. Oh well..... |
Audioari1:
Thanks for the tip. Those seem to be priced reasonably, too. Now that I have the Stax setup, I'm uncertain about whether to keep or sell the HD600's, but if I do keep the Sennheisers, then there will be a lot of potential amps to consider.
Thanks again, to you and all of the other members who have contributed their insights and shared their experiences on this thread.
-Bill |
Bill- If you roll tubes you will probably need to re-bias teh amp. It involves using a multimeter and adjusting a pair of pots inside the amp (if its the same as my 006t). The procedure was somewhat complicated and iterative (had to go back and forth, IIRC). If its not in the manual (ifyou got one) try contacting STax or post on head-fi.org and you will probably get someone there to give you the procedure. |
Swampwalker,
Thanks for the information. Tube biasing sounds very difficult and time-consuming. I do have the Stax manual, though. I'll give it a shot after the tubes arrive and the headset returns from being repaired.
-Bill |
Bill - Though it may sound complicated, it really is very simple. Once you've done it once or twice it'll be a snap. I don't know the Stax procedure either, but most manufactures give you easy access to the points you'll need to read and change the bias. BTW, many modern tube amps now use some kind of auto-biasing circuit eliminating the need to bias. Here's the basic procedure (trying to simplify for newbee, though it really is pretty simple): Get yourself an inexpensive digital multimeter from Radio Shack that reads in milivolts. Turn the amp on with the headphones (speakers in the case of a regular amp) connected, the volume turned all the way down, and no source connected to the amp. Let the amp warm up for 3 minutes or so. Each tube will have two contact points to take a reading. Set the multimeter to read mV and use the +/- probes to contact the two points for a single tube. This will give you a reading on the multimeter which may or may not be close to what you are aiming for. You will need to know exactly what the manufacturer reccomends for that amp for optimum performance (as Swampwalker said, a manual will be very helpful through all of this). Let's say it is .37 and your meter reads .49 - this would mean your bias for that tube is too hot and you need to lower it. To change the bias of the tube there should be either a knob, or more likely a screwdriver slot, in which case you'll need a small screwdriver. The knob/slot is connected to the pot(entiometer) Swampwalker was talking about and is there to adjust the bias. With the meter still touching the two points readin the bias of the tube, turn the screw quite gradually counterclockwise to lower the current (bias). You will see the numbers go down. Get the number to come as close as you can to .37 (or whatever number the manufacturer recommends as the bias point). Usually there is a tolerance of a few milivolts, and it will fluctuate/drift a bit, so just come as close as you can and don't worry about it. Go to the other tube (you only have two) and repeat the procedure with the proprietary pot and reading points for that tube. Once you've done the second, you may want to go back and check the first and re-adjust, and do the second once more too. After that, you're done. You should probably check/adjust the bias once a month or so. Again, once you've done the procedure once or twice it's a snap. It definitely is not time consuming for two tubes. First time will likely take all of twenty minutes perhaps since you'll be learning by doing. After you get it down you'll be able to do it in five minutes.
Marco |
Marco is correct as to the procedure, however, on my 006t, I think you had to do it with the cover off and it was a bit more of a hassle than on most amps. Not difficult, just a little tedious and of course, be careful with the multi-meter leads. On my Cary, there is just a phone jack that you plug your meter into, a single pot, and an open chassis, so its a bit easier. The first time, I would do it after 3-4 min go by, and then again in about 1/2 hr. then you should be good, unless you roll the tubes, then you will need to do it for each set. |
WOW! Marco and Swampwalker, you two guys are GREAT! You explained it so well that I think I actually UNDERSTAND it (we'll see of course-LOL!). Thanks to both of you for taking the time to clarify that procedure. Now it's just a matter of waiting for the headset and tubes to arrive...
-Bill |
"Get yourself an inexpensive digital multimeter from Radio Shack that reads in milivolts."
-Marco Marco: That sounded easy enough. When I checked, Radio Shack had something like six or seven different models, and all different price ranges, and I couldn't figure out from looking at them whether the more expensive ones were more accurate or just had more features, or just how accurate they needed to be anyway, and so on....I left the store to seek additional information, and I await your (kind, patient, and always highly appreciated) assistance. So, not to sound like even more of a doofus, but how accurate does the thing have to be? Should I get a digital one? What kind of multimeter do YOU have? Thanks in advance. -Bill |
If I may chime in, the biasing is not that precise and digital mms are pretty hard to get on the gnat's a$$ anyways, an analog would be fine, but Rat Shack makes a small digital model where the leads store right inside the fold top case. Mine is Cat # 22-810 and is cost about $20-$25, IIRC. |
I use a Fluke. No need to go that direction. Take Swampwalker's good advice. That'll do the job just fine. Since you are new to this, have the salesman show you just how to set it to read mV. It should be clearly marked...but just in case...
Marco |
Swampwalker and Marco,
Thanks for the info. I'll go back to Radio Shack for "round two" pretty soon. Glad to hear that biasing is not that precise. Will look for Cat. #22-810, if available. This (entire thread) has been a great learning experience and a lot of fun (for me at least--LOL!!!). Thanks again, guys. By the way, dare I ask what a Fluke is?
-Bill |
Your welcome Bill. Anytime. Best of luck when your Stax return. |
You're welcome Bill...enjoy! Marco PS Fluke manufactures various electriconic test tools. Overkill for your purposes - no need to spend that kind of money. I think their least expensive multimeter is currently around $150. Save your money and buy some new music. |
Fluke is a manufacturer of electronic test equipment. Since biasing is adjusting the current in milliamps of the tubes and the user is adjusting in millivolts there has to be a precision 1Ω resistior that you are measuring across. |
Richingoth, when you say this: "Since biasing is adjusting the current in milliamps of the tubes and the user is adjusting in millivolts there has to be a precision 1Ω resistior that you are measuring across." Does that mean that you think it might be better to spring for an expensive device, like a Fluke or something? Thanks. -Bill |
I am going to take a chance on revealing my ignorance and say that the absolute values of the bia current is not as important as making sure that the pairs of tubes are biased identically; therefore I do not think that having a precision resistor is that important. Many folks tweak the sound of their amps by tweaking bias a bit one way or the other. Of course, anyone iwth better knowledge of circuit design (that means just about anyone) can correct me and I will gracefully bow to their superior knowledge. |
Mdhoover, the Radio Shack DMM would be just fine in this application. I have never worked on an tube audio amplifier nor seen any schematics but only on guitar amplifiers and have been doing so for about 30 years. Most if not all guitar amps don't have provisions for the probes of the DMM, (i.e. not user friendly). Groove Tubes has a tube socket (with a built in 1Ω resistor with attached leads) the tube under test gets plug into this device and the device into the empty tube socket on the amp. Here is a link to that manufacture's page: http://www.groovetubes.com/product.cfm?Product_ID=1191 |
Swampwalker* and Richingoth: Thanks guys! That information is extremely helpful. The new tubes have arrived and now just the headset is still out. *(Swampwalker: "Ignorance" is a term that has never even crossed my mind when thinking of you. It applies quite nicely to my knowlege of tubes, however!) -Bill |
Uh-oh, looks like my copy of the SRM T1 owner's manual doesn't mention tube biasing at all. #@%$&!! (It must be different than the owner's manual for the 006t that Swampwalker used to own). In an effort not to bug you guys any more, I actually did try to find a pdf of the owner's manual (in case the one I have is incomplete or something, even though it doesn't look incomplete), and did Google the question using the advanced search function. Guess what: Google sent me back here. Any SRM T1 owners out there?????? Marakanetz, are you an SRM T1 owner? Thanks again.
-Bill |
With the price range most people here are playing with, I'm surprised on one has recommended anything from the Headroom line. I've heard nothing but good things about them, especially the upper level amps. My friend has one and says the crossfeed process/switch helps with the feel of headphone listening by making it seem more like listening to speakers instead of 2 distinct sound sources. Maybe the solution to imaging?
Personally, I've got to recommend the Musical Fidelity X-Can v3. I picked one up for my Grado SR325's. I actually found very little about using it with Grados, but headfi is filled with people who swear by it for their HD650's. I'd figure that would make it a good match for you.
Pros:
Does everything well (unlike most headfiers, yes I do listen to classical)
Unarguably good looks
Great build
DIY moddability (caps and tubes)
Run through lets you put it between a source and preamp
Cons:
No power switch. Apparently the simpler circuit design helps?
At $350 it's a great bargain and very reasonable for a headphone system. Personally, I think the point of diminishing returns comes very quickly for headphone rigs as compared with stereos. $500 can get you a great pair of phones and an amp which can shame most loudspeaker systems that cost 10x as much. |
Alo,
I've considered the MF X-Can tube buffer and may get one if I keep the HD 600's. Thanks for the info.
-Bill |
Tube buffer or headphone amp? |
"With the price range most people here are playing with, I'm surprised on one has recommended anything from the Headroom line. I've heard nothing but good things about them, especially the upper level amps. My friend has one and says the crossfeed process/switch helps with the feel of headphone listening by making it seem more like listening to speakers instead of 2 distinct sound sources. Maybe the solution to imaging?"
I agree with the fact that the maxed out home will probably be one of the best amps you can get for the Senns, esp. the balanced version.
I disagree with the fact that it solves imaging problems with phones. It helps move it in front of you, but the K1000 headphones are the only ones that really make you feel like you have a large soundstage (still nothing like a life sized speaker setup). |
"Tube buffer or headphone amp?"
-Alo I suppose it would have to be both. But I just bought the Stax setup and want to see how that sounds after it gets back from being fixed. I'm still not sure whether or not I'll keep the Sennheisers and the Ramsey SHA 1. -Bill |
Quick update:
The Stax headset has returned from Yamasinc, and has been rebuilt to original Lambda Pro Signature status. They look beautiful. Price for newer model 404 would have been almost identical, but I opted for the restoration based on what Swampwalker had said about having heard both units, what they had sounded like before I broke them with the vacuum cleaner (yes indeed, quite an idiotic thing to have done, yes indeed....), and based on a professional review I found somewhere on the 404's that said that there was a peculiar artifact in the bass response that was absent in earlier versions. Two weeks to break in, then I'll have "NOS" Stax.
Main reason for posting: Yamasinc appears to have done just an excellent job, and that's worth knowing for other Stax owners who may be considering upgrades and/or maintenance with that company, which is the authorized U.S. distributor. |
Although the headphones look beautiful, I was mistaken that they had been refitted with the original diaphragms that were used with the Lambda Pro Signature earspeakers. That diaphragm was discontinued several years ago and is no longer available. Therefore the repaired unit is esentially the 404, with its thinner diaphragms, according to the technician I spoke to at Yamasinc. They sound very good, but the original owner heard them on Sunday and said they didn't sound as good to him as when they had their original old Lambda Pro Signature diaphragms. Oh well, they still sound very good. But Swampwalker, you were right it would seem. |
Md- Please forward the final sentence of your post to my wife ;~) Glad that Yamasinc was able to hook you up. |
Now that the headphone system is up and running (I still haven't worked up the courage to change the tubes on the SRM-T1), it sounds excellent. It could still sound better, in my opinion. So.........what do you guys think of the ED-1 "diffuse field" equalizer made by Stax? Would this fill out the bass without introducing too much distortion, or is it more of a device to create an enhanced "soundstage" for the headphones? Is it worth pursuing one of these units which originally retailed for around $600? If so, what's a good price, and where can I steal one? |
Epilogue: Having destroyed the diaphragms on the original Lambda Signatures, then having them rebuilt at Yamasinc to essentially 404s with the new diaphragms, I wanted to see how the ORIGINAL version of the Lambda Signatures would compare. I found a pair in great condition and bought them. Because there are TWO pro headphone jacks on the SRM T1, I was able to compare the two sets (newer 404s versus older Lambda Signatures). The differences were definite and obvious, but not earth shattering. Through the SRM T1, which is tuned to the original Lambda Signatures (according to Yamasinc), the 404 equivalents were significantly more efficient, with higher output at any given volume setting. The 404 equivalents were significantly more detailed and crisp, and probably extend a little deeper in the bass. In comparison, the Lambda Pro Signature originals were sweeter and probably more "musical." When listened to at the same volume, the two were quite close. I preferred the sound of the 404 equivalents, but an audiophile friend of mine felt just the opposite, and we each listened to both of them at the same sitting. One of us could listen to one pair while the other one listened to the other pair on the same track. Alas, after all that, I ended up selling the whole Stax headphone system and also plan to sell the Sennheiser HD 600s. None of them sound good enough compared to the Intuitive Design Summits; it's as simple as that. I'm too spoiled by the sound of the mains. The only thing I can think of left to try is the Omega 2s. I'd certainly use the tube 007t if I got them, or else something from Singlepower, but we're talking about big bucks here, so it'll have to wait, if it ever even happens at all. Plus, there are no guarantees I'd even be satisfied with THAT. Kind of frustrating, but I'd rather go without any headphones at all than listen to something that doesn't satisfy my sonic demands. Sincere thanks to all who posted to this thread trying to help with the selection. I now can say that I've ventured into tube based amplification. |
