I am interested in hearing opinions on spending money on used Watt Puppy 7's for $15,000 with decent amp setup, or should I spend $7,000 on used sophias and the remainding $8,000 on a good amp setup? Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.
The WP 7 are vastly better than the Sophia's so if you have a decent amp I would get the better speakers and then upgrade the amp later.
I would also strongly advise you to listen to a pair of Usher Be 20 loudspeakers which are 516,400.00 brand new and they will stomp on the WP 7 and 8.
The Usher uses a pure beryillium midrange and tweeter and also employs the famous 10 inch Eton bass drivers that Kharma uses.
This magnificent speaker is in the same class at the $40-$50,000.00 speakers such as Kharma or Marten but because they are from a company who believes in reasonable pricing cost so much less. I am in NJ if you are close contact me for an audition. Please check them out you will be amazed.
One of my customers bought a pair and his friend has the Avalon Eidilon Diamond and the Usher's smoked em!
There's a recent thread on this very subject, you should use the search engine. Audioauricle's first sentence is the consensus, I believe. The key is having a good front end, as the WP is far more revealing of flaws ahead of it than the Sophia. On the other hand, if you don't really care about getting all that detail and don't want to have to spend a fortune on front-end equipment and amps, the Sophia would be a better choice, then you could pocket the extra money and enjoy your music as well.
The Usher uses far superior drivers to the WP, Kharma, or Marten. Usher is one of the largest speaker builders in the world they just have been concentrating on the Asian market for years.
The new Be series uses pure Beryillium midrange and tweeter drivers which offer unmatched speed, detail and clarity.
The Eton woofers are also superior to the Wilson drivers.
Please don't take this the wrong way, in my day I sold a boat load of WP, but Wilson has allways used good but not the most expensive or the best drivers in really good, inert cabinets. The fact is if you use MDF in the right way you can accheive an inert cabinet for much less money.
Also isn't it a bit suspecious that they changed one expensive tweeter for another and then raised the price of the speakers by over 20%!
Usher builds some of the worlds greatest loudspeakers as do several other not as well known brands as Wilson. Wilson is a terrific product but the industry and customers should be aware that you don't and shouldn't just be looking a the big names that you know. There are many here that love the Zu speakers, I am not one of them, but would scream from the hilltops that affordable and excellent speakers are here.
I started my business to find the best sounding and reasonably priced audio and video products out there. I beleive in serving the client and not the client serving the dealer. So I will allways champion products like the Usher's and try to convince people that great products come from all over the world and not just the US or Europe
If this is about getting the most bang for your buck, turn the page. Wilson doesn't offer that. Tvad is right, as you seem to know, about buying used. Thankfully, there are still people who buy new so that the rest of us can buy used. Try another thread asking for cost effective alternatives to Wilson WP-7. You will get a lot of responses and many of them will be valid. I'm going to recommend Zu Definitions because I own and sell them. However, my first bit of advice won't work there because nobody ever sells them used.
Tvad - I think you are probably right and I just did so.This is rather a different situation however. I am not a dealer per se but I do stand to receive a commission if anyone who listens to the speakers in my home buys a pair from the factory. I have no inventory other than my own pair of speakers and no investment to protect. I do not negotiate price and I live in a fairly remote location. All in all, I'm not likely to benefit directly from my comments. But just as the matter of whether or not Zu uses a crossover evolved into a vast controversy, I fear that this one could as well. So I'll take your advice.
I have owned the wp7 and the sophias. I had the original sophias and not the sophias 2. I can tell you that no one can honestly say that the original sophias sound even nearly as good as the wp7. I would agree that the sophias are sweet speakers but please its like comparing a Porsche Boxer to a Porsche 911.
I currently have the wp7 and was debating moving up the food chain to the wilson maxx2. I heard the maxx2 in two different listening rooms. One time they were driven by expensive vtl siegfried tube amps and once by less expensive but real powerful krell 750 mcx ss monoblocks. It was apparent to me that the maxx2 were a better speaker but I was shocked that even with incredibly expensive vtl state of the art amplifier, I thought the difference was modest not substantial. Since it would have cost me roughly $20,000 to upgrade the speakers, I have pretty much decided to quash the idea.
The wp7 are a bargain at $15,000 used. I had posted an ad to sell my wp7 for $14,000 on audiogon last month in anticipation that I would be floored by the maxx2. I was surprised that the wp7 were not bought within a few days at that price. I am pretty happy though that they were not. I am not sure if its the economy or the wilson bashers out there that are cooling the demand for wilson but its a pretty sweet speaker.
I find myself in a similar position as Karmapolice. I recently listened to the WP8s and Maxx2. I own the WP 7s and Watchdog II. The Maxx2 is a better speaker, but as with all things, one has to justify the cost. The WP8s are better sounding than the 7s, but not as different as they would like you to believe.
The fact is, there really aren't that many people spending over 10K for speakers. Karmapolice, I have found in the past that it is very difficult to sell WP speakers even when the price is lowered. I have always had to have my Wilson dealer handle the sale for me. It appears that when people are spending this much money, they are not willing to take a chance with a private party unless you give them away. Check out the prices on other expensive speakers being offered on Audiogon.
I have to agree with you on your WP vs Maxx assesement, If you add a really good subwoofer to the WP the diffferences grow quite small. Obviouly the taller speaker will have a bigger soundstage.
Please don't think that I am anti WP because of my strong support of Usher. I have sold more WP than probably anyone on the planet, and I still love the speakers, I am just pissed off on Wilson's never ending price increases which are just not justified based on the difference in parts! $22,000.00 is a substantial amount of money for a pair of speakers.
I have have spent time with both models. The 7.1 is much better.
However, neither speaker even makes my top ten. And at their prices they should. My Wilson dealer listen's to ATC's at home, which he also sells, and so do I. They are better and not just better for the money.
$15,000 is a BARGAIN for the WPs??? LOL...not in my book. My perspective is different, though... I knew Dave when he was in Novato, California and I lived in San Francisco. He sold the WATTS through DB Audio in Berekely, the same establishment that Garth Leerer, now importer and owner of Musical Surroundings, started. I purchased the WATTS in 1986,and had series, I, II and III with Puppies I and II. In fact, according to Dave, I was the first non-Wilson employee to ever hear the Puppies. I was just lucky: Dave set up my Goldmund Studio turntables for me. The WATTS at that point were 4400. When the Puppies came out, they were $3300. So, put into perspective, since 1988, the WPs, now the standard-bearer (and I'm thrilled for Dave that he made it!) has more than tripled in price. I know as well as anyone alive, and better than many, what an optimally set up pair of WPs sound like, but they're expensive as heck. That's the part that bothers me. I've recently purchased a pair of 718s, which haven't arrived yet. If they even sound terrific, I'll be happy. Haven't heard them yet, but that's ok. It didn't break the bank. So, the WPs are great speakers -- and now they're legendary -- but I could never call them a bargain, given my historical perspective of them.
Some of us who bought a Porsche Boxster S over a 911 did so because the Boxster handles better than the 911, and is an attractive roadster rather than a chopped coupe. Just look at the R&T sallom speeds, where the Boxster S is a stand out. I wonder how many on this board assume cost is always the prevailing factor: more must be better. And, yes, I think I prefer the Sophias, but both are excellent speakers near or at the top of my list. I've owned both a Boxster S and 911, but, unlike you, don't feel I can afford either a Sophia or WP7.
Just switched from Martin Logan Odysseys to Watt/Puupy 7's. I am amazed as to the imaging, dynamics, soundstaging and detail that these speakers are able to produce. Yes they aren't cheap but to me they were worth it! I heard them setup in my old spot in the room where my Martin Logans were and then afterwards when placed properly and it was a totally different speaker.
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