This thread has gone off the rails...
1. As Myles Astor pointed out, fine tuning a cartridge when it has only 20-25 hours on it is a waste of time. Mark was wrong that all ZYX's need 100's of hours to break in (the UNIverse needs only 50 or less to behave normally), but 25 is certainly not enough. Stop fussing and listen to music for 100 hours or so.
2. Stephanoo and some others on this thread are MIS-USING the four anti-bias tracks on the HFN&RR test record. These tracks are not "tests" that must be "passed". If you set a cartridge to "pass" a higher db track than it wants to, you will end up with excessive VTF, excessive anti-skate or both.
This is a common misunderstanding among newbies, because the instructions with that record are poorly written.
These tracks were DESIGNED to make your cartridge mistrack. The only reason there are four tracks of differing amplitudes is that different cartridges track differently.
The idea is to pick the ONE track that BARELY causes YOUR cartridge to mistrack under normal VTF. Then adjust anti-skating until the mistracking is equal in both channels. DO NOT try to eliminate the mistracking and especially DO NOT try to "pass" higher amplitude tracks. That is a mis-use of the record.
Frankly, I find those tracks and the whole HFN&RR record worthless. I've set up 50 cartridges in the last 5 years, on my table and others, without using or needing it. Throw it away. Learn to adjust by listening to music. That's what you bought the cartridge for, that's how you should adjust it.
/rant
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Hi,
Instruction on the record are poor, that's is true.
Nevertheless I wouldn't say that this record is worthless.
I find the azimuth's track and the resonance test very interesting indeed.
Moreover, I think, and it's been proven to me by listening tests too, that adjusting the antiskate (minimum adjustments) to be able to track the 12dB brings brings up a lot of sonical improvments.
I can't say the same thing for the 14dB though which I had to back up after a couple of hours of listening.
So my understanding is that the 12dB is required to be able to properly track most of your records.
Beside my cartiridge now might be at 35-38 hrs so it is close to the normal behaviour I assume.
I think the matching with tonearm is important and the resonance tests are created for this purpose.
If I have a resonance test at around 15-16Hz, I assume that this should affect the sound and the tracking abilities somehow, and that is what Mike told me right away.
He told me to check it out because resonance has to be around 9-11Hz and he asked me to contact him back after have done certain tests because the stainless steel armtube might be the solution otherwise.
I will keep you posted. |
BTW it is the first time I see this interpretation on these tracks.
Thank you for sharing your understanding.
I will reflect on it |
You're welcome, Stephanoo, though of course the proper interpretation of those tracks is not just my opinion. This has been discussed on vinyl forums for many, many years. Search the archives if you like, it's all there.
Reflect: it doesn't make sense to use those tracks as "tests" to be "passed". Real music is not cut at those amplitudes and velocities, so why apply so much VTF and anti-skating to track unrealistic grooves? Logic tells us this will result in excessive forces being applied to your cartridge.
You already verified this. The 4D performs best at ~2g and with minimal A/S, not at ~2.5g and with more A/S. You didn't describe how the music sounded at those higher settings but I can: dull, slow, lifeless, fat, no "snap", no pace, no air. Sturdy but stodgy, like yesterday's coffee. Am I right?
So, FOR THIS CARTRIDGE, tracking the 14db band (or higher) is irrelevant. Of course if you were using a super compliant Shure cartridge, the 16 or 18db band would be relevant and the 12 db band would not. If you must use this record to set antiskating, the only band that matters is the one that causes a tiny amount of mistracking (buzzing).
Of course antiskating and VTF are best set while listening to music. I do it every day, but I admit it takes practice.
I agree the resonance frequency tracks will identify a major arm/cartridge mismatch. That's the most useful thing about this record IME. Your results will be interesting.
For me the other bands have no value (the azimuth test band is bogus) but at least they do no harm. That's not true of those four anti-bias tracks, however. Used incorrectly, as so many do, they dull the music and shorten the life of a cartridge. That's why I spoke up.
Enjoy!
Doug |
this totally makes sense to me.
Passing a 14dB track on a certain position of the record cut at a certain speed makes no sense whatsoever.
All in all at 2gr and a little antiskate I can track the 12dB.
the point is though that the next little buzing track would be the 14dB's one.
Now at 2rg I have the left ch left with a little bit of distortion while the left ch has more distortion.
If I were to balance the 2 distortion I would have to increase AS in this case.
Anyways I have contacted VPI and I definitely feel like say how incredible their service is and I strongly reccomand to buy their products for the quality of them and for the customer service.
Anyways I talked to Mie and told him the resonance problem and he told me to send him back cartridge and tonearm and they wull replace it probably with an higher mass (perhaps Stainless steel) orr add weight to it and properly set the system.
They are amazing.
I am going to send the package after 5PM and hopefully next week I will be able to get it back and then I will post the changes.
BTW the sound at 2.3gr and more AS wasn't that horrible, I mean it was still great.
I just thought that there was a little lack of air and I felt like there was less definition and soundstage less defined so I stepped back and that confirmed my impression.
Thank you Dough for sharing with us your kwnoledge. |
Hello Doug/All,
I had to backtrack through the entire thread, and re-read all of my posts, and I didn't find where I specifically said the ZYX takes 100's of hours for break in? (it appears I'm the only "mark" in this thread) :-)
I have been a good "student" I think, (you being the teacher of course), and recall many of your comments-reviewz about everything ZYX.
I'll save space about going into full detail.
But it appears Stefanoo has not evidently succeeded in being pleased, as in one of his last posts posts, he makes referral to sending the whole shebang off to VPI, to let them scratch their heads.
All I can say, is I wish you the best of luck Stefanoo, and hope that all comes back OK. Mark
PS Doug: Thank you very much for that very understandable, and logical-technical explanation about the use of such Anti-Skate Tracks. I leaned something new again from the master! |
I think I was the one saying about 100hrs...so my mistake.
I have read it somewhere but I can't remember where.
Well, the only problem with it was that the tonearm was too light for the combo so VPI which is a GRAT company is willing to help me out.
I am sure everything will work out great and I will post here as soon as my tonearm...ememe....and my ZYX 4D....will get back from the trip at VPI's industries :) |
Mark, My apologies for the mis-attribution, and thanks to Stephanoo for stepping up. Clumsy me. :-( BTW the sound at 2.3gr and more AS wasn't that horrible, I mean it was still great. I just thought that there was a little lack of air and I felt like there was less definition and soundstage less defined ... Agreed. Pressing a vibrating object (cantilever) into an elastomer (cartridge suspension) attenuates the vibrations, and higher frequencies are attenuated the most. Excessive VTF and AS sound a bit like turning a treble tone control way downward. From everything I've read, Mike at VPI has been providing great service for many years . Glad to here they still are. A higher mass arm should definitely suit your cartridge. Let us know! |
Arm should arrive this week accordingly to what Mike told me.
So as soon as it will get here i will post impression. |
Hello Stefanoo-
Did you get the stainless steel upgrade or the 3 grams of lead added to the tonearm? I too am waiting for a new arm (stainless steel 10.5i) to go with my Airy 3. |
I got the stainless steel armtube...the package is supposed to arive this morning....so as soon as I will get it I will post in more details.
k
Anyways, since the arm was there I asked Mike to wire it out with the Nordost wire. |
ok..the arm is back...
I had to screw the allen wrench that is by where the wire comes out and set it till the arm was free of moving then connected the lemo connector in and lets go.
The sound is terrific now.
There is so much difference from before that I don't understand where it comes from...just the wiring, the alignment, the proper tracking force...or the twisting...
All I know is that now it sounds really wonderful.
They told me they have set the tracking force up the upper range (which means I think around 2.5gr).
So just to reply to Dough, the sound at this tracking force is fabulous.
There is air, dynamic, there is a huge soundstage back and front.
Speakers completely disappear from the room.
It is really nice now.
The arm is stainless steel and the counterweight now sits a little bit past out the center point of the stub which is the ideal point I think, while before was right by the unipivot.
It is really nice.
I will go and have some more listening to try to compare some well known records. |
Stephanoo-
You should use your scale to see what the VTF is set at and let us know. |
yeah, I will use the shure gauge to chek that out....I will do it right now...and get back to you.
P.S. Mike said that most of the time pwople make the mistake of measuring the VTF without having the arm resting parallel but sitting back and that gives an higher reading for the VTF then what you actually gonna get on the real situation.
In this case I will give the reading with the arm sitting a little as I don't want to move the VTA as I don't have the option of the VTA on the fly :( |
VTF reading says 2.6gr!! so when the arm rests parallel then I guess it would be 2.55gr or something around that.
I mean, I would have never set that VTF myself....but I guess that this is how the cart performs the best...as it does sound much better though.
I am wondering if I have to change that as the cat ages and how I realize when it is about time to change it. |
WOW! That is heavy! I see the recommended tracking force is 1.7-2.5, so you are right on the top of that range. I haven't listened at that high of VTF, my ZYX 4D seems to work very well in the 1.90-2.10 gram range. Right now I'm at 1.95 grams. I actually just dropped the VTF from 2.05 to 1.95 and it sounds a little better IMHO. |
Yeah, I know.
That is how they have set it though.
I don't know if I want to change that or not.
I might be in the future.
How do you like your 4D? is it the copper low version? |
I have to admit that I'm pretty impressed with my 4D-X. It is the copper version with low output. I've had it for just over a month now, it replaced a low output UNIverse with silver coils, which I owned for 4.5 years. I was expecting this to be a step down, since I don't have the $$$ to spend on a cartridge now that I did in 2005, but I feel like it's a lateral step instead. The copper 4D has better articulation and extension, the silver UNIverse was a bit sweeter in the midrange.
FWIW, my 4D is mounted on a Basis 2500 Signature table with Vector 3 tonearm, phono stage is a Klyne 7PX5. |
Nice system.
Your experience is very interesting.
you are the second one on this post who had a Silver universe and now likes the 4D better.
Too bad it wasn't a Copper Universe so that we would have ended this Saga, where people thing the Amos=4D
I personally don't think so.
I still don't think that a Silver Universe can sound worse than a copper 4D just because it is Silver.
Absolutely not.
Even reading reviews around the world where they compare the silver vs copper, they talk about small differences, perhaps preferences.
True the copper is the most neutral, but I don't think silver makes it slow, less articulate less dynimic.
Anyways.... can I know what is the serial number on your 4D?
I purchased mine something like 2 months ago or so.
So mine is brand new too. |
Actually, if you re-read this thread, there is only one person who says this....me. I am the first and the second one. Also, if you re-read my last post, you will see that I did NOT say that the UNIverse S-SB sounded worse than the 4D-X SB2, I said they sounded DIFFERENT. The edge in dynamics and speed going to the 4D the edge in sweetness and musicality to the UNIverse.
Which one a listener would prefer would depend on what the listener is looking for sonically. Don't worry about which is best, stop listening to test tracks and just try to enjoy the music. The ZYX 4D-X is a fine cartridge.
Cheers,
John
Actually I just re-read my first post and I did say the 4D was "better" than my UNIverse. That was probably just initial excitement (I'd had it for less than a week at the time). After time to think about it, I feel that my last post is more accurate, they are simply different....that's all. |
John,
still, Universe is supposed to be better like saying Airy 3 Vs. 4D or Fuji vs. Airy 3.
There is no doubts that one is better than the other, beside they are surely different too.
So all in all, besides the difference the Universe should have still been clearly better.
But hey, people who tried the Atmos vs. Universe had no doubts about it and went back to the Universe.
If it is not the case now, I would say something is different :) .
BTW, I do not listen to test tracks.
But hey, you got to set your system up first, don't you?
As you would say, when I was testing it I just had the cartridge mounted on the tonearm for a week so...it's not like I am still listening to HiFi-test!!! |
P.S I tried to email you back but it bounced back...maybe your account is full?
I wanted to tell you that I have on the manual the 7124.
ehehe. |
