@billstevenson. Thank you for your honest response! It is what seems like a flower in a field of weeds.
I for one want to purchase a product that I feel, after reading for years is a solid product, I can have confidence in it’s accuracy of manufacture.
"How critical is the geometry issue in practical terms"? Wow! I would think, coming from you, it would be critical? As I said previously, I want the product I paid thousands of $ for to be accurate. The inaccuracy should come only from the end user.
"I wanted to avoid this can of worms". (A can of worms.. people, did you think you’d have to deal with a "can of worms" after laying out $$$???) Let’s try to define this...
(1) Why is this an issue to start with from an American TT manufacturer that has 40 years of history?
(2) ..on my question about revealing cartridge geometry... "Why limit applicability of their product?"
Lets start with #(2). How does having the tonearm geometry of a brand new TT/arm limit the applicability of said product? If it does, is it not on the manufacturer to let their potential customer/s in on this thought prior to purchase?
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"Mat at VPI offered to fix mine if I returned it...".
This implies that Bill Stevenson addressed this issue with Mat, (as a concern).
I never received this option when I spoke with Mat. If I did, I'd gladly take him up on it.
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Dear @slaw : """
But the 2nd pivot mod also changes the original design concept, thereby making it (not a unipivot anymore). This is, I think, the argument Raul is making and the point I was initially referring to. """
That's it, thank's to put the " ligth " on what I wanted to explain with out to much success.
@billstevenson , only for you can think about: the VPI unipivot and the one with the 2nd pivot overall are the " same " but the dual pivot performs way better.
My starting participation in this thread through my Stringreen anser was that the dual one performs better because the 2nd pivot gives it a way better stability.
Now, that was and is my argument but you disagree telling that the unipivot has no un- stability problems ( when in reality has. ). You posted " facts/tests " trying to prove it with no success.
So, why all the named tonearm manufacturers gone for the dual design ( changing from unipivot to dual pivot. ) and all dual pivot tonearm owners attest with out doubt the dual pivot better performance if it's not that the dual pivot has now better stability that's something the cartridge ask/shouts for it.
No pun intented, just think about.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Just another point on the 2nd pivot. Using the Fozgometer...take your time and get it perfect...it can be done with the 2nd pivot...just screw it down or up and it stays. Its almost impossible to do without the 2nd pivot in place. As the Foz needles get closer, just a small adjustment makes a very big difference. My Foz meters are nearly pegged for both left and right. It makes a very big difference in the sound.
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Dear @billstevenson : """
How critical is the geometry issue in practical terms? Records are imperfect anyway. Get everything dialed in for side A only to discover that things are skewed for side B. """
Well, what means practical terms?. For you can be something different than for other gentlemans.
My take is that with analog/LP everything is of critical importance and certainly the cartridge/tonearm set up is extremely important and must be accurated. It makes a difference for the good or bad depending on that accuracy levels in the set up.
I totally disagree with the statement you shared because if we think in that way then what @stringreen posted about the Fozgometer " alignment " has no importance for almost no one when in reality it has.
Why we need to take care as better we can of any single parameter/set up in analog/LP?, because is a medium totally imperfect and we can't acculates additional " imperfections " in that " equation ".
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Sorry, in last sentences we have to read: accumulates instead acculates.
R. |
I apologize for being absent for a few days. I live is South Florida and Irma has turned our lives upside down here. Anyway, without power and no air-conditioner it is difficult to get excited about turntables. I have no idea what you are trying to say in your post above Raul. Perhaps someone else can interpret for me? Just in case my last post was not entirely lucid, my point was that no matter how precise we try to be with TT setup, the medium is inherently imprecise and compromise is part of the game. No matter how careful we try to be, the records we play are themselves not perfect: not flat, holes not centered, equalization imprecise, etc.. Everything is a compromise. We do the best we can. And you know what? Don't despair, our efforts are not in vain because as most of us know full well, a vinyl record very often sounds better than the digital equivalent for all it's claimed perfection. And we also know that we can strive for further improvement through refinements in setup, experimentation, ever improving cartridges and pre-preamps etc. And, in the process we can have a lot of fun.
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There was an article on cartridge/tonearm geometry and its relationship to distortion. As I recall if the geometry was off by as little as 1/10 degree in any direction the distortion would double. That's why the geometry should (ideally) be changed for almost every record. That issue all by itself is reason to go to CDs. Well, almost. 😀
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Dear @billstevenson : """
We do the best we can. And you know what? Don't despair, our efforts are not in vain.... """"
in those words you resume what I try to explain through my last post to you.
Now, the cartridge/tonearm geometry alignment it does not cares on all or any of the imperfect characteristics analog/LP has. Always we have to try that that set up been do it with high accuracy.
"""
a vinyl record very often sounds better than the digital equivalent for all it's claimed perfection. ... """
Today that statement is so controversial for say the least. Today digital technology advanced " ligth years " in the last 10 years and I think that today is way superior ( everything the same ) to analog/LP experience.
Digital is still growing up almost single day. I enjoy both formats but I know that digital outperforms analog. We can " close " the sun with one " finger ".
Analog is at's limits when digital still growing up and this characteristic is a welcomed for any music lover and audiophile.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Dear @geoffkait : """
That's why the geometry should (ideally) be changed for almost every record. """
Can you share with us a wider explanation about?, is interesting to know why we need to change the geometry at each record.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Due to the variation in thickness of the LP the geometry of the cartridge/tonearm changes significantly, enough to produce 1/10 degree change in geometry in some cases. Don’t they have on-the-fly geometry adjustment gizmos?
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Sloppy language @geoffkait "geometry" typically refers to the alignment of the stylus relative to the preferred arc and (absent gross off center issues should not vary disc to disc ('tho the truly anal might switch chosen geometries depending on the disc they are playing and where they want to put the maximum distortion 😉))
what you describe would affect the VTF/SRA/VTA relationship which while an important part of cartridge setup is not usually thought of as geometry. Plus it's easily addressed via adjustment of whatever VTA mechanism you're using
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Ah, so you're saying vertical tracking angle is not geometry. Interesting. |
Dear @geoffkait : Yes, it's geometry and affects the alignment set up.
The VTA/SRA is changing continuously at each and over the LP side due to those macro and micro waves in the LP but we can't do nothing about. So, we stay with the choosed alignment. It's a non-evitable trade-off.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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FWIW, I was re-reading all of these posts. The OP's initial thread post reminded me of my experience when going from my VPI Classic 3 Sig SE/3d arm to my Townshend Rock 7/Funk Firm FXR, using the same cartridge.
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The 2nd pivot works great and setting the azimuth is a snap using Wallytools. The 2nd pivot although it works well, it is a little hokey.
If VPI incorporates the 2nd pivot concept into a tonearm I will upgrade.
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mflaten,
You’re next in line for a free shirt. Just send Harry or Mat your size.
(insert appropriate emoji here).
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