mflaten,
You’re next in line for a free shirt. Just send Harry or Mat your size.
(insert appropriate emoji here).
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FWIW, I was re-reading all of these posts. The OP's initial thread post reminded me of my experience when going from my VPI Classic 3 Sig SE/3d arm to my Townshend Rock 7/Funk Firm FXR, using the same cartridge.
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"Mat at VPI offered to fix mine if I returned it...".
This implies that Bill Stevenson addressed this issue with Mat, (as a concern).
I never received this option when I spoke with Mat. If I did, I'd gladly take him up on it.
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@billstevenson. Thank you for your honest response! It is what seems like a flower in a field of weeds.
I for one want to purchase a product that I feel, after reading for years is a solid product, I can have confidence in it’s accuracy of manufacture.
"How critical is the geometry issue in practical terms"? Wow! I would think, coming from you, it would be critical? As I said previously, I want the product I paid thousands of $ for to be accurate. The inaccuracy should come only from the end user.
"I wanted to avoid this can of worms". (A can of worms.. people, did you think you’d have to deal with a "can of worms" after laying out $$$???) Let’s try to define this...
(1) Why is this an issue to start with from an American TT manufacturer that has 40 years of history?
(2) ..on my question about revealing cartridge geometry... "Why limit applicability of their product?"
Lets start with #(2). How does having the tonearm geometry of a brand new TT/arm limit the applicability of said product? If it does, is it not on the manufacturer to let their potential customer/s in on this thought prior to purchase?
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gshepardbuster:, From what I’ve read in this thread, the 2nd pivot is a (big) improvement on an initially flawed design. Where one may view this as a tweek, ( IMO, a tweek = an improvement that did not alter the original design concept) I view the 2nd pivot as an afterthought that by happenstance altered the initial design made better by way of more thoughtful consideration. To prove this, if all of the buyers of the 2nd pivot that (did alter the original design), have positive experiences, I can only assume the initial design to be flawed or at least had significant areas of improvement?
By definition, a tweek is an enhancement to a particular design or concept. The 2nd pivot is a change to the initial design, that changes the subset of the unipivot to a dual pivot.
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@stringreen..."I can’t help wonder why there is so much discussion on this. Raul thinks the single pivot is flawed because it is unstable (wiggle)....the 2nd pivot stabilizes the arm and thus corrects the issue. It me it sounds better with the second pivot than without. Done."
Without realizing it, stringreen just answered Raul’s concern and my problem with VPI as a whole, in his summarization.
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I have a couple of questions that I would think be of concern to all VPI owners: @billstevenson, You may be positioned as our best form of information on these questions?
(1) The factory off-set setting of S2P distance by 2mm on my Classic 3....is this difference on any of their other TTs? The Prime? Why is it a good thing? If it isn’t, why are we experiencing it?
(2) Is there a good reason why a designer of TTs and tonearms won’t reveal their preferred cartridge geometry method?
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Doesn’t the fact that VPI has introduced the 2nd pivot option for their unipivot arm as an "upgrade", made clear by you and the OP, make a dramatic statement by their own admission that their unipivot arm is lacking and in need of additional design implementations/improvements? |
@billstevenson. "Based on my limited experience with two arms, I am of the opinion that this mod benefits all VPI unipivots".
I can accept this. But the 2nd pivot mod also changes the original design concept, thereby making it (not a unipivot anymore). This is, I think, the argument Raul is making and the point I was initially referring to.
(In my experience with the 3D arm, it does not "hold" it's adjustment from hour to hour, day to day. I always have to check the VTF. A big inconvenience.)
I just wanted to make this point. Not to argue about it.
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I get it. If you really think I'm jumping up & down, red in the face..why would you antagonize me with the "cole" remark? Wouldn't it be more productive to answer my posts/questions straight on without deviating from them? Just waiting for a competent response to my previous posts?
Just a post ago you told me to try the Fieckert. When I had previously mentioned it in order to make my point. Try proof-reading your own responses/posts before making another post, please!
You choose your responses to advert your/ initial response for your own advantage as to not address my thoughtful posts. You are/have seemingly made your history on this "off-the-hand" maneuvering.
Believe me, I'm confident in my posts. Please just make an appropriate, honest attempt in answering them without the histrionics!
Overhang adjustment. @stringreen, I assume you know that there is an adjustment feature in the 3D arm for this at the headshell? Right? This is the end-user's discretion based upon the varrious cartridge mounting holes. This is THE reason for this "latitude". The S2P distance should be set as a NON-ISSUE! I thought I was tired before,... now I"M REALLY TIRED!
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@stringreen, "it depends on where you want to put the errors". You're making excuses for VPI and you can't even see it.
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@stringreen, Could you explain what "cole" means? I'm ole' school, thanks. |
@stringreen, I’d put my Rock 7 up against any belt drive or even rim drive VPI product ever produced, for enjoyment per dollar spent. |
@stringreen, As I stated earlier, I use the Feickert. Believe me, I’m not jealous in the least. Your recall of your ceramic platter recommendations are different from mine. This is easily researched if anyone would like.
For a 40 year old company to have any product currently produced with complete and total control of their production to have the S2P distance so far off, wait, what did I just say,...I meant to say off at all, is outrageous! If it doesn’t affect the sound, is not the point of the discussion to me, it is the ability to "get it right". Plenty of questions regarding this on their forums.
When I bought my Classic 3 Sig SE, nobody told me, by the way, you S2P distance is going to be off by a couple of mm. Nobody in the press ever bothered to mention this.
Stringreen, I don’t want to spend thousands of $ on a TT only to find I now need to disregard my purchase of a $250.00 protractor that tells me the TT manufacturer is wrong. You say "it just depends where you want to put the errors". I’d much prefer to have the TT come to me manufactured correctly, and any error that is incurred to be one of end-user fault by way of not aligning the cartridge correctly. The fact is, as far as I know, Harry will not release what alignment he uses. Why??? Check out the exhaustive post on vinyl engine regarding this.
@bdp24, I think in the history of TT designs, I felt that the HW-19 series will have the most impact. The TNT is a completely different animal.
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IMO, their breakthrough product in terms of TTs will always be the HW-19 series.
I could care less if VPI sent me a shirt.
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Look at the S2P distance on their current models? On my Classic 3, there is a difference when measuring with my Fieckert to what VPI recommends by 2mm. Why in the hell can’t VPI get their own, in-house made, products to scale out as to their own specs?
When I asked Mat about this, his response was, if it’s in a 2-3 mm range, all is OK.
NOT WITH ME!
bdp24, I'm not being harsh, I'm being real. Thanks for your input!
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stringreen, I’ve been somewhat a critic of yours for a while. Mostly because of your willingness to (seemingly) support any product that comes out of Cliffwood. I remember asking you a few years ago about your recommending the ceramic platter. Upon my asking, I found out that you had never owned one but that your recommendation was based on Harry’s recommendation.
Yes! A company’s goal should be to improve their product. Most companies take a year or two to roll out an improved product. VPI has condensed this down to what seems like every 1/4. This, to me seems like that at every whim Harry has, for a new product, he has the ability to put it out for the masses with little regard for inherently new/better designs that will stand the test of time, but for the almighty advertising dollar/social media talk that seems to drive VPI’s popularity along with the ongoing Talk on threads such as this.
This is not good for the industry as a whole IMO. VPI has hit on a rare point in history where they can seemingly do no wrong in the eyes of most.
Will one ever see the interest in a VPI product 20 years down the road that there is now for a Rock 7, that has only been out of production for about 5 years? Highly unlikely!
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In conclusion?... Is this yet another of VPI' finding a way to make a product that at the time, was (well thought out) and later developed an accessory to make that product better? Probably. But we've been through this before, time and time again. And yet we still fall in line to buy, time and time again. At once it's an on-board motor, then an out-board motor, then a tri-pulley, then a rim drive, then a 300rpm motor then a 600 rpm motor then a mag-drive, the a direct drive. In the end, we're all trying to figure it all out while they are reaping the rewards, time & time again. If you are like me, It's hard to figure out exactly what part I have from which vintage VPI TT? I think looking at their homepage, even they are wrong on the product dates! Shew!..I'm really tired.
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I’m reminded of the Art Dudley video. Anyone watched it? In his wisdom he states that we are all listening to distortions in some form or another. It comes down to which distortions agree more with one’s own perception of their musical truth.
Sorry Raul, while I tend to side with you in this particular discussion, your "...enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS" is a valid pursuit, but not a reasonable ultimate reality.
I think the best compromise to the "2nd pivot" is @robes initial question regarding the Townshend trough. If available, it would not only address the "swaying" without adding a "2nd pivot" thereby changing the whole arm’s reason for being, but positively affect the cartridge resonances. A more perfect option.
@stringreen’s statement earlier that the cartridge’ suspension should take care of the 3D arm sway is I think, asking too much of the cartridge.
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If folkfreak's post above is accurate, it should have been corrected immediately so as to not deceive in any way, future customers! However, it's easy to find videos of the arm swaying side to side until it becomes steady by way of natural causes, which is the entire argument in a nutshell, isn't it? I experience it every time I lower the arm onto a lp.
@billstevenson, My posts regarding the different clamps/weights involved comparing them alone and with my mats and the differences I found. The mat/s won out with no weights/clamps easliy.
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robes,
I saw where you posted on the Townshend thread, so I'll join you there.
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From my perspective, using the 2nd pivot, while it may be a sonic advantage, takes away the objective of the unipivot design. The addition of a damping trough, as in the Townshend, adds damping at the most critical point without changing the main objective of a single mechanical point.
This, to me, is the challenge of the potential project.
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Damping the cartridge (as it is the initial mechanical source of sonically intrusive resonances) is I think, what the OP is looking at.
Practically, there would have to be modifications to incorporate it onto a Prime.
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robes,
Hello. You've hit on a few things I thought no one would ever relate to but me. I'm a Townshend Rock 7 owner and a long time VPI owner.
I have a long term TT project in play. One of my thoughts was to integrate the Townshend trough into my own design. (Frankly, it should be incorporated into more designs.)
As far as integrating it into a Prime (unipivot arm), I would think it could only help. Your "Third" potential preference is a complete unknown. This is what makes this hobby fun! I hope you find a way to make it happen.
My current preference with my Rock 7 and using "flat records", I find using no clamp or weight brings me closer to the music. I own and have used VPI delrin clamp, VPI SS center weight, BDR two-piece clamp, Stillpoints LP-1, among others in several situations within my 3 tt combinations. I like a flat record with no clamp. This is in conjunction with my 1mm thick platter mat and the Funk Firm Achromat (used together.)
Look forward to your thoughts.
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