Vintage MONO Cartridge Question ?

Grado doesn't do moving coil. They have two elliptical stylus moving iron cartridges, the MC+ with a 3-piece telescoped cantilever for $90 and the ME+ with 4-piece cantilver for $150. The last time I checked, the ME+ was a Stereophile recommended component.

I have an Audio Technica AT-MONO3/LP. It's a high output (1.2mV) moving coil cartridge with conical stylus. It retails at $189 at LpGear.com, but I got mine for around $116 on Amazon. Currently they're $132 there. I'm very happy with it. It's very quiet on old mono LPs and has transparent, honest sound and dynamics. It opened up my 2014 mono Beatles LPs significantly.

Thank you for your response; however it was not what I was looking for. 

Grado offered moving coil cartridges from the mid 1950's-mid 1960's before changing to moving iron.

The 3 cartridges I mentioned are true single coil cartridges, rather than 2 coil construction adapted for mono.  All are vintage, and were made before 1960.  My intended use is to play pre 1962 mono LPs.

I'll never understand why people buy used phono cartridges. <shudder> Yes, you can have them rebuilt, but that's a dicey proposition and you can never be sure what you'll have when the service is complete. If ever there was an audio component to buy new, the phono cartridge is it, imo.

Cleeds, I don't agree with your gross generalization, but that's beside the point.  The OP seems to want a true mono cartridge, and most of those are going to be "vintage" by definition.  It might be more constructive to direct him to consider one of the very few modern mono cartridges that are also "true mono", if you are leery of "used" cartridges (which I am not).  I think EMT and Ortofon still make new, true mono cartridges, but I cannot name model names.  Then too, there is Miyajima.  Miyajima market a whole line of true mono cartridges, designed from the ground up to be mono.  Also, Miyajima offer a choice of 1.0mil or 0.7mil stylus tip radius, if you are anal about early mono vs later mono and groove width.  

Iopscri, I have no idea why you choose 1962 as some sort of cut-off point for early vs later mono. There is mass confusion on the internet regarding this subject, and I don't believe there are hard facts about dates; each company was doing what it wanted to do, and they were not all in synch back then.

I take it you want a cartridge that will play pre-1962 mono records in their native mode--in other words, not a cartridge designed to track both mono and stereo records. In other words, with only two signal pinouts (+ and -), and cantilever compliance only in the horizontal plane.

The Denon DL-102 has an internal mono coil arrangement and just two signal pins--one positive and one negative to create a single output channel. It's a high output (3 mV) moving coil cartridge. It is compliant in both planes, but is internally and externally wired to only pick up horizontal motion. I found this description/review on Dagogo enlightening. 

Also, I stand by my recommendation for the Audio Technica AT-MONO3/LP. I got it for playing my 2014 Beatles mono records, but I've found it does well on pre-1962 mono LPs as well. It is dead-quiet in the vertical plane, and makes old mono LPs sound really quiet. Such mono LPs sound unlistenably noisy with a stereo cart.

I am willing to roll the dice with a vintage cartridge.  I have done well before in seeking out 30-40yr old MM stereo cartridges.  The cost of a current production True Mono cartridge starts at about $800-$900.   The cost of acquiring a vintage cartridge, and then having it rebuilt should be about $500-$600.   The assumption being that the cartridge in question does not have a shorted coil, and measures within a few ohms of specification.  The rest- cantilever, stylus, suspension, bushings, can be replaced.   There are at least 2 rebuilders with significant experience in restoring these cartridges, so I am confident of success.

The change from mono to stereo pressings included a change in groove width and shape.  Older mono pressings (pre stereo) can be played using stereo cartridges, but something is lost.  Using a true mono cartridge (that responds to lateral signal only), with a stylus of appropriate width results in much better reproduction than a modern stereo cartridge adapted for mono, and using a current stylus profile.

I'm not a Luddite but I realized a long time ago that "new" does not automatically mean "better".

My system is a combination of new, old and vintage components:
  
Triangle Titus 202 speakers  (10yrs old)
ARC D70 MKII
Cary 40m/SE
Audible Illusions M3
Linn LP12/ ITTOK LVII / AT 33MLocc / Lundahl SUT
Blue Sound Node 2 media streamer connected to an NAS (purchased this year)
AR3a used as subwoofers
Mac 2100 as amp for subs
Mirage powered crossover

Technics SP15 TT / AT 1503 MKII arm to be used a  mono TT

Computer system:
Musical Fidelity a3.2 integrated
Spica TC50
HRT Streamer
AR ES1/ Shure V15Vmr

I also have a large collection of vintage tube equpment:
Heathkit (W4, W5, AA111, UA2 amps)
Eico (HF14, HF86 HF87 HF81)
Fisher (500s, 500c, 500b, 400, 600, X202, 20a, 30a, 440a. FM202T, FM90r, FM200 + mpx200)
Pilot (AA902 and console stereo amp)
Dynaco (too many ST70 and PAS3, several MK4)
AR (3a, 5, and multiple prs of 2ax, at least 2 XA tables)
Janszen (400z, 600z)
Conrad Johson PV5
Hafler DH101
Several NAD receivers
NAD 3020

I have looked at the Denon 102 and may pursue it as a backup if my effort to restore a vintage cartridge proves difficult.   I have listened to comparisons between the 102 and other cartridges.  The 102 does some things very well- mono image is corporeal and surface noise is reduced, but it lacks the air and HF extension of better mono cartridges.  And there is always the GE VR-II....

I don't think anyone would argue with you that using a mono cartridge to play a mono LP is superior to using a stereo cartridge to pay a mono LP.    And no one would argue with you about WHY this is true.  I also agree with you in principle that I would rather use a true mono cartridge (one that cannot respond electrically to vertical displacement of the stylus) than a stereo cartridge wherein the two channels have been bridged internally so as to produce a mono output signal.  Some might argue that using a preamplifier with a mono switch is identical in effect to using a bridged stereo cartridge to produce mono, but that's another can of worms.

Anyway, all I can do is to suggest you investigate modern true mono cartridges like the Miyajima, EMT, and Ortofon products.

A mono cartridge whose cantilever can deflect vertically can still be "true mono" if it creates no signal in that vertical motion. Such cartridges have the stationery coils aligned to respond only to vertical motion. The vertical compliance protects your stereo records from a brain fart when one might forget to swap cartridges before playing a stereo record.

And yeah, I know, the OP plans to have a dedicated mono rig where that "can't" happen. Still, just because a mono cartridge has 4 output pins doesn't mean it's internally a stereo cartridge with strapped outputs. Besides, how would that work? Wouldn't you need diodes or a circuit similar to what's in a mixer to prevent the two cartridge channels from feeding back to each other and creating noise? 

What such a cartridge *can* easily do is be an internal Y-adapter so the mono signal is sent to the left and right signal pins so you have true plug'n'play mono to your sterero outfit without need of an external Y-adapter to send the mono signal to both stereo channels.

BTW, from what I've read, the DL-102 may have a more limited bandwidth because its output is pretty high (3 mV) for a MC. This makes the coils on the cantilever bigger and heavier.

OTOH, that AT-3MONO/LP cart is HOMC with 1.2mV output, plenty for  my MM input. It has a conical stylus, which (in my experience) is evidently wide enough (.60 mil) to work well with mono pressings on both sides of 1962.

If you want a fancier Audio Technica, there's the AT33MONO, which is an LOMC (0.35mV) with slightly wider (.65mil) conical stylus. 

A mono cartridge can have vertical compliance.  The Denon 102, and many of the Japanese mono cartridges have vertical compliance.  What is important is that the cartridge contains a single  coil only, and does not generate signal from vertical movement (well there is some, but it is negligible).  A stereo cartridge, adapted for mono by coil alignment, or internal connection generates a vertical signal.  This signal introduces distortion and phase anomalies that are audible.  
 

I don't really care if the specs allow for some vertical crosstalk. When I lower the needle of my *stereo* cartridge (using the damped cueing lever), there is a loud THUMP! When I lower the needle with my AT-MONO3/LP, its landing is TOTALLY INAUDIBLE. If it's inaudible during a severe vertical modulation with no horizontal modulation to obscure it, then it's not going to contribute anything of note when all the groove modulations are in the horizontal plane.  

It's a really good cartridge for a ridiculous price, and the AT33MONO is even better, as it should be.

In theory, the noise generated by vertical motion of the stylus in a mono cartridge is cancelled by adding the positive and negative signals from each channel, in a mono cartridge that was created from a stereo cartridge.  As I think Fleib is trying to say, since the two channels are never a perfect match, the cancellation effect also can never be absolutely perfect.  The same applies to using the mono switch, if your preamplifier has such.  I don't own any mono cartridge, but I do use a mono switch when playing mono LPs, and the improvement vs playing mono LPs in stereo is enormous, most notably in the area of reduced noise and an increase in the width of the soundstage.  From this I conclude that faux mono cartridges might also work pretty well to generate a mono experience, albeit not perfectly.  Anyway, the OP is not asking us to debate this issue.  He knows what he wants.

A true mono cartridge, which has only one coil, can have vertical compliance without generating any noise as a result, if there is no mechanism to transduce vertical movement into an audio signal.

Another issue, I much prefer 2-channel mono over the idea of using only one of two speakers when listening to mono.  Old habits die hard, I guess.  But this is why I personally have no interest in ancient true mono, 2-pin cartridges from the 50s.  (While I am a big proponent of vintage stereo cartridges.)

A true mono cartridge, which has only one coil, can have vertical compliance without generating any noise as a result, if there is no mechanism to transduce vertical movement into an audio signal.

My point exactly. Vertical compliance by itself does not disqualify a cartridge from being "true mono."

Another issue, I much prefer 2-channel mono over the idea of using only one of two speakers when listening to mono. Old habits die hard, I guess. But this is why I personally have no interest in ancient true mono, 2-pin cartridges from the 50s. (While I am a big proponent of vintage stereo cartridges.)

No argument here! I *love* mono played through two speakers, esp. with my Maggie dipoles which energize the entire room. It's also a great way for tuning the system. If your mono signal is dead center between the speakers and you get a sense of depth, you're on the right track.

An answer to my original question ?    Buelller........Bueller.......

lopscri wrote:

An answer to my original question ?   Buelller........Bueller.......

Maybe you should write some vintage enthusiasts, such as Art Dudley w/Stereophile. You need someone really familar with old mono carts, which isn't exactly mainstream, even for vinyl enthusiast audiophiles, evidently. I'm a bit of an anachronism myself--big band enthusiast since 1965, grew up in a house with a big tube Zenith radio/78 rpm record player. I'm 63, have been at audio since I was 18. My phono stage and line stage are both PTP hand-wired all-tube units. I have at least 80 mono LPs ranging from the '50s (Belafonte's "Calypso", RCA Ortho-phonics, etc.) to originals from the '60s to Prestige and Riverside mono jazz reissues.

And yet I have absolutely no knowledge of pre-1962 mono cartridges.

Ok, I know, this is a very old discussion. Nevertheless I´m wondering if anyone ever made a comparism of the pickups in questions.

I´ve done that with AT-3LP, AT-33 Mono, Denon DL-102, EMT OFD 15 Mono, Ortofon CG25i, GE RPX Single Play, Triple Play as well as Pierre Clement EB-25 and Fairchild 225-A. And I´ve gamed that out on Audio Technica ATP-12P, Audax KT-16, Livingstone as well as Fairchild 280-A tonearms. Furthermore I´ve pairde those pickups with Fidelity Research FR-64s and Schick 12".

Consequently some of those carts got also a run with a vintage Gray Research 602C Phono EQ.

When asked for a ranking I´d go with:

Fairchild 225-A
Pierre Clement EB-25

now nothing comes for a long time 
Ortofon CG25i
EMT OFD 15
GE PRX Single Play
GE RPX Triple Play

again nothing in here for a long time
AT-3LP, AT-33 Mono, Denon DL-102

Old thread indeed.   

"  be_audiophil1 "  Your ranking is interesting.  How did you arrive at your conclusions, and in what ways did the Fairchild 225a exceed the Ortofon DG25 ?   Is your Fairchild cartridge rebuilt (original stylus, cantilever, suspension) or rebuilt ?

Thanks !