@lohanimal, no one asking for exact price, but experienced vendors should recognize the symptoms described above (in my posts) to make a conclussion. Two vendors already said they will not touch the tt-101 for less than $1000 (or 1000 Euro + tax). Dave Brown (who fixed tt-101 for one of us) adviced me just to resolder all the eyelets one by one, it can take 1 hour minimum, pulling the PCB and soldering both sides maybe 2 X that, let’s say 2-3 hrs. He charge $25 per hour and that includes time for packing and shipping. Sadly i’m not in the USA, because this price is fair and easy to understand. His website is modularsynthesis.com
I have no problem with bearing, platter etc, rotation my my tt-101 is stable, but it turns off in 30 min each time i turn it on. Now sure what was the problem with your tt-101 (probablly totally different), but you can tell us the price you paid. |
I have told them to do the works so to speak. I didn't get the TT101 to skimp. I got it because I liked the design and technology that has not been repeated since.
They have done a once over thus far and an estimate. To their credit they don't persuade you to have done more than is necessary and strike me as very honest guys. TBH its makes a refreshing change to come across two 'techs' with a genuine engineering background who give structured and logical advice. You can't give a fixed estimate with things that are vintage and in my case where it was damaged in transit. |
@@Chakster Have you read on their site regarding the estimates? Unable to make a quote as the problems can be multiple and may take a while; I believe that over a certain sum they make to forait. However, they seem to have a JVC museum and can check their TT101 in case of problematic failures. I show you the link of their site https://www.wilkinsons.tv/?page_id=1173 |
GOOD NEWS!!!
Wilkinsons are able to repair my JVC tt10. Andrew informed me that someone must have either dropped it badly or put a hammer to it... He has replaced the bearing at the bottom of the spindle and will then work on all the electrolytics and so forth. |
@best-groove
yes, but nothing about the price for this job, he said he has 75 jobs in line for the next month, i hope i could get an answer about estimate price, i just don’t want to ship heavy turntable if i don’t know how the total price will be calculated. If it will cost about a grand i will pass on it and will do it locally for free, lol.
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@ chakster
News from Wilkinson labs? |
Thanks Peter,
Finally someone with the 'guts' to post a Timeline video rather than just 'talk' about it 👅
I applaud you...and good luck with your quest in reviving these vintage Japanese DD turntables.
I have still seen no evidence that any of the modern DD decks can equal (let alone exceed) the performance of the great Japanese decks of the Golden Age....
Regards
Henry
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Lewm
The road runner is only for display - it has no control purpose - I opted for the inclusion the Roadrunner in the 308 because it has no strobe, keeping the DP80 in the Pro line I included it in that too, eliminating the strobe.
Good Listening
Peter |
The OMA copy of the Verdier idea, is, like the Verdier, a can of worms. Center of gravity is way way too high, for one thing. Springy footers plus rotating mass raised high above = instability. IMO, of course. |
Peter, I use the Roadrunner/Eagle to control my Lenco. It is comforting to see the RR display 33.333, every once in a while. In practice, the speed takes about 5 minutes to stabilize usually around 33.3, then 33.33, then flirting with 33.333, maybe after 10 minutes in. I think the bearing lubricant may be warming up during this early time. But I don't understand why you would want to "control" the Denon DP80 or the DN308 motor with the RR feeding back to the Eagle. Wouldn't you want to leave that in the hands of the built-in feedback mechanism which is making constant readings (not just once per revolution) off the tape that is attached to the inner circumference of the platter? You could certainly use the RR for a numerical readout of speed without having it control the motor; maybe that is what you are doing. (I don't think anyone would hear a problem with 33.334 vs 33.333. I don't even hear any significant difference between 33.3XX and 33.333. (Talking with respect to the Lenco.)
Chakster, I am of the belief that a cylindrical plinth that has a diameter minimally greater than that of the platter is optimal, regardless of drive system. I think our conventional rectangular plinths with a large surface area beyond the platter area add a subtle coloration that is appreciated when one compares the sound to the cylindrical type, which sounds most "open" to me, for want of better words to describe it. But I do not associate OMA with originating the idea, at all. Nottingham and Verdier and also Galibier, Teres, Redpoint, etc, beat them to it. |
Ok Videos uploaded on Facebook on our home page PBN Audio Shows the GrooveMaster Vintage Direct DP80 with a SME 310 carrying a Ortofon MC Anna VTF 2.6 Gm playing an entire album side in this case 17 minutes and 28 seconds. The Timeline dot is 26 feet away from the turntable center - in the 17minutes and 28 seconds the dot moves about 3 inches forward , progressively , probably indicative of the 33.334 speed indicated by the Roadrunner Tachometer. Don't know how to calculate this but I'm certainly sure it is well within specs :-)
Once I get a DN308 online again Ill do the same experiment
Good Listening
Peter |
Richard
I believe the timeline shoots four pulses per revolution so it will be every 90 degrees - however if there is any deviation what so ever in speed in between the pulses it will be impossible for the dot to appear at the exact same spot over and over and over again.
The Roadrunner that I install in the DP80/DN308 machines use a magnet thats mounted on the perimeter of the platter, it passes over a sensor thats mounted to the plinth, a very precise oscillator/clock times the time it takes for the magnet to reappear at the sensor then calculates the precise PRM that's displayed.
The method that the electronic one that Mikey use I believe you replay a record with a 3150Hz tone recorded into it the the reproduced signal is listened to with a microphone and how accurate the 3150Hz tone is reproduced makes for the speed accuracy calculation - this probably is the most accurate method IMO if the 3150hz test tone in the record is a steady 3150Hz tone.
Halcro I'll try to do a video of the DP80 soon - I only have a one tonearm setup. Once I get another DN308 complete Ill do one of that one too, this possibly I could do with two arms, I still have two donors ready to be assembled - currently I'm sold out :-) these latest two will make a total of 8 units of this fabulous machines rebuilt/retrofitted.
Good Listening
Peter |
WOW........
The laser point is generated by the clamp?
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For those interested,,,,, HERE is a video of the TT-101 with the Timeline and three tonearms to compare against the previous video with the TT-81. And HERE is the Sutherland Engineering video demonstrating the Timeline on a belt-drive turntable with a massive platter. Notice how the massive platter is slowed under the stylus drag of just ONE tonearm.....😱 |
Best groove
I was referring to the time line laser at a 3.7 m radius
Unfortunately for me is a completely new novelty I do not know. :( |
Once i've come across the Tuchan’s blog with a picture of his "stand" for tt-101 i realized it reminds me something. It was beautiful OMA plinth for one for their turntables, but later i realized the orignator for that kind of "plinth" was Jean Verdier (Laboratoires Verdier) who passed away 3 years ago. His website is still active and full of information, but the web-design of that page takes you back to the 90s when all internet was like that. I think for the round turntable drives like Victor TT-101 this is very nice style of plinth (or call it stand with tonearm towers). I think it’s awesome. |
Halcro
I'm not shooting any messengers.
The time line is an excellent device which tells us average platter speed relative to 33.3 or 45 very precisely.
However, if want to properly measure real time platter speed, you need to have granularity down to arc seconds.
Once every 360 degrees is way too course.
cheers
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Richardkrebs,
We've had that discussion as nauseum in the past.
To me it seems more a case of 'shoot the messenger'...particularly when it comes from those who disparage it.
Show the results....THEN disparage away 🙃
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@halcro
unfortunately I do not having a working TT or system at present. There was a devastating fire which took out one of my amps, damaged my preamp and speakers.
The TT survived but the wiring from arm to Pre was literally vaporized.
I do not have a second arm or the ability to mount one if I did. But I take your point. Show me the evidence.
The time line is an interesting device, but I think that some may read too much into what it tells us.
It only shows us where the platter is relative to the last time the laser fired. Say 1.8 seconds ago.
It does not tell us what happened in between the two laser shots.
For example, a stationary platter would pass the timeline test.
It is also possible to pass the timeline test where the platter is stationary for say 1/2 a second and then accelerates up to a speed considerably faster than 33.3 and back down to zero. As long as the platter is in the same place every 1.8 seconds, all seems fine.
We need more sophisticated equipment to find out what is happening between the laser shots.
cheers
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Lew, Mikey has used the Feickert Platter Speed App to test his turntables for years. Just buy the test disc directly from Feickert http://www.feickert.org/index.php?id=16&L=1And download the free App to your phone or iPad. The only problems I have found with it over the years is:- - The test record is rarely drilled perfectly concentrically and the results are thus contaminated
- The results I achieve continually vary from test to test (even with the same turntable/arm/cartridge)
Still interesting nevertheless.... |
Richardkrebs, Actually I would be surprised if any of the flag ship DD TTs from that era failed this test. I too would be surprised....but I still have not seen any videos subjecting any other turntables to the Timeline test with two or more tonearms/cartridges playing then NOT playing as per my video. Despite what anyone may think about the Timeline....this test displays significant information about the speed correction facility of the turntable under test. For instance my TT-101 is not as 'perfect' as the TT-81 under this test....The Timeline moves 2mm from start to finish 😱 For years, there have been promises here, that videos would be uploaded....but nothing appears. Surely you could do it richardkrebs and Peter...? For Peter, it can demonstrate the relative performances of the Denon DP80 and DN308. best-groove, The ability to turn a heavy platter at the correct speed has little to do with how a turntable is able to maintain speed under 'stylus drag'. |
Best groove
I was referring to the time line laser at a 3.7 m radius
cheers
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The standard strobe on the turntable is not widely enough to control deviations?
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Halcro
re the 2 tonearm test.
Actually I would be surprised if any of the flag ship DD TTs from that era failed this test.
Feedback and sufficient motor torque is all that is needed.
re the SP10 MK3, I don't run 2 arms, but I did a timeline test playing a record while forceably applying a carbon fiber record cleaning brush.
The dot did not move 3.7 meters away.
Not very scientific, I know, but it is possible to apply much more torque this way than with a second arm.
It is also possible to significantly modulate this torque, which I did.
No movement.
cheers
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"Technics claimed the SP-10MKIII would maintain speed with up to one thousand tonearms tracking at 2 grams each."
The manual for my SP-10 Mk2A quotes maintained speed "even with a load torque up to 5 kg-cm (4.3 lbs. in.)" That's only 500 tonearms tracking simultaneously at 2 g. each. So obviously a very inferior performer. ;^)
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Technics claimed the SP-10MKIII would maintain speed with up to one thousand tonearms tracking at 2 grams each. Sure, look at this photo from the 1976 Japan Audio Fair during the presentation of the Technics SP 10 mk2 what it could do without speed variations; The MK3 is even an even more powerful engine. http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad331/marika-johnson/AA.jpg@Halcro ok ;) |
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Nandric wins "Funniest Post" award. The rest of you can hand in your computers.
Henry, are you confirming that the data posted by Fremer come from the Feickert tools? I am sure he does not keep it a secret, but I cannot find where he says what instruments he uses. If the cost is reasonable, I would love to purchase the equipment just to test my 5 turntables.
Results for a DD will be heavily dependent upon the accuracy of calibration of the particular unit under test. That’s where guys like JP come into the picture. JP’s homebuilt chip for the Mk3 is more accurate than the original chip, but at a level where we are not sure it could be heard (perhaps also "surpassing [the accuracy of] measuring instruments"). Or maybe JP has done a listening test by now that does reveal differences. In other words, if one sample of a Mk3 is less accurate than one sample of a TT101, it proves nothing unless we know the state of tune of those two units.
I did run my Mk3 with a borrowed Timeline, and it was spot on at about 10 feet projection, but with "only" one tonearm and cartridge playing music. The friend who lent it to me owns a very expensive belt-drive. When he demonstrated the Timeline to me on his system, he literally had to get up and run to the motor controller about every 5 minutes so as to prevent the reflection from marching all around the room. As it was, it marched about 2-3 feet in minutes. He subsequently complained about the speed problem to the manufacturer who promptly supplied him with an "upgrade" to the motor controller. In fairness, that did help the speed problem. I think the Timeline is over-rated and overpriced, nevertheless. |
Even if Technics measurements were off 50% it would still be impressive. Have you ever tried to slow the platter of a MK3 with your hand? It's quite difficult.
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The accuracy surpassing measuring instruments was only possible in ''the real socialistic countries'' thanks to the beloved leadership of the communist party. |
Technics claimed the SP-10MKIII would maintain speed with up to one thousand tonearms tracking at 2 grams each. I'm aware of that claim and would love to see it demonstrated....👅 But seriously....I've seen claims by the new Monaco DD about its speed accuracy surpassing measuring instruments... I've also seen the VPI Direct Feickert Speed App test published by Fremer which didn't appear so 'perfect'? Regardless of 'claims'....there is a difference between 'speed accuracy' and 'speed stability'. It would be nice to see any of the SP10Mk3 owners out there with 2 or more tonearms, post a video to YouTube showing the behaviour with the Timeline. It would also be nice to see the NVS, the Monaco, the VPI Direct or any other vintage or modern DD pass this test. Claims are not worth the time of day.... |
Technics claimed the SP-10MKIII would maintain speed with up to one thousand tonearms tracking at 2 grams each.
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Yes best-groove.....is me 🤡
Just demonstrating how the Victor DD turntables are able to maintain absolute speed consistency under the dynamic loads (including 'stylus drag') of up to three cartridges at the same time.
Haven't seen that test with the Timeline successfully done with any other turntable.....
But I would like to.....👅
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Halcro,
Of course :-)
Good Listening
Peter |
"Agreed. Your listening impressions of the TT101 as compared to the DP80, both with your upgrades and plinth, would be very informative."
But I can't help thinking.....perhaps understandably biased...👀❓
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Agreed. Your listening impressions of the TT101 as compared to the DP80, both with your upgrades and plinth, would be very informative.
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Lewm,
I really need to get my TT101 finished :-)
Good Listening
Peter |
From comparing many different DD turntables in my own system(s), I am very persuaded of the inherent superiority, or at least the desireability, of coreless motors. That's only an opinion. Although the DPs have an exceptionally good 3-phase synchronous motor, it is not a coreless type, so far as I know. On that basis, I would be surprised if the VPI (which also has a coreless motor, probably one that is superior to any of the coreless motors with which I have listening experience) was not as good sounding. But audio is like that; one must be careful predicting what one will hear based on how a product is made. |
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Thanks, Peter, but I notice you gracefully declined to say how the VPI compares to one of your restored DP100 or DP80 Denons. I read the S'phile review of the VPI by Fremer. He publishes real data these days on speed stability. I also recall that the DP80 owners manual included a graph showing speed vs time for the DP80, but not the max and min variations that contribute to the average speed curve. I've wondered how the DP80 and of course some others would look on Fremer's instruments. (Is he just using a Feickert computer program, or what?)
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Have had several of them - its a very nice machine - A thingap motor run by a industrial servo controller placed inside the motor unit. The ones I've had have all been slightly fast and adjustment is only possible via software. The motor it self looks very similar to the one pictured next to the TG231X specs in this link http://www.thingap.com/standard-products/Both Platter and Bearing on the VPI are VERY substantial, the bearing it self is the standard VPI Inverted bearing. Good Listening Peter |
Henry (Halcro) mentions the $30,000-VPI DD turntable, which seems to have come and perhaps gone from the market, like a will o' the wisp. I am guessing that VPI will still build one for a buyer, but they have certainly stopped flogging it, preferring instead to hammer away at the middle of the market in terms of cost, with their latest belt drives. Maybe they are selling them to wealthy Asians and Russian oligarchs. Has anyone here actually seen the VPI DD, and if so, have you listened to it in a good system? Better yet, have you been able to compare it to one of our beloved vintage DD turntables? Henry implies that a well done TT101 would be on an equal footing with the VPI, which made me wonder. Another such item is the Monaco Grand Prix.
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@chakster
How did the repair workshop make a budget estimate without even having the turntable on the operating table?
Could you publicize the asking price?
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Well, i just got an email from www.Audio-Reparatur.de about estimate price for TT-101 repair service and it’s similar to JP’s current rates, but the vendor is in Germany, so for those who’re in Europe it must be great and Tuchan’s repaired TT-101 linked a few times in this thread is the proof. Still very expensive for me. Waiting for the rates from JVC repair service in UK soon. |
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Henry, I thought, "Bob's your uncle." Whistling Dixie is not such a good idea right now. |
For those looking for a good Victor TT-101.... http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=s541556118This one looks worthwhile. The FR-64s tone arm alone is worth $1500 so I’d expect this auction to realise close to $3000..... Compare that to VPI Direct at $30,000 and ’you’re whistling Dixie’....😘🎶 |
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I feel you, but I am far too lazy to make the effort to transfer my approximately 2500 LPs to digital, even if I wanted badly to do so, which I don't. I have a very good CDP (Ayre C5Xe-mp), and I leave it at that. My CD/SACD collection is much smaller than my LP collection. |
