Vandersteen Treo vs 3A Sig as upgrade

Zd542 -

I have owned the 3A's since 1995 and had them upgraded to Sigs couple of years ago. I'd say I'm pretty familiar with them. I'm asking about the Treo having a hot top end resulting in exaggerated sibilance. It was very apparent in the demo. And somewhat boomy bass as well.

I'm asking about the character of the Treo from folks with experience. What are the Treos like and is it fair to say that they are hot on top? Loose on the bottom? Simple questions No need to second guess or read between the lines or "fix my system" over the internet, like that's even possible without an audition in my room with my gear. Please tell me about the Treos, if you can. Thanks.

OK so far no responses from any owners or any pertinent info on the character of speakers themselves from any knowledgeable source or anyone who has even heard them. What is the character of the speakers? Are the speakers hot on top? Are they somewhat loose on the bottom? Pretty basic stuff here. No need to make it complicated.

(((Could it be that most Treo owners are too busy, probably listening the the Grateful Dead or Schumann.)))

Nice quip from a Vandersteen dealer.

I too hope an owner or two will chime in with some honest, unbiased info on what it's like living with the Treo. Especially someone who has upgraded from a 3A Sig who could describe the differences in set up, sound and caveats between the two.

Zd452 - Alright, you did not hear what I heard and I will take that into account.

Mr m -

Thank you for the thoughtful and even handed review. Well done! Let us know how the bass breaks in.

Ctsooner -

I hear you. I agree that set up and room are major players. HOWEVER, I prefer to keep this thread about the Treos, not my particular situation, and I have made that quite clear. I enjoy reading other's comments and experiences considering the Treos in THEIR situation - as do other readers, or at least I would hope so. I would list my system here but somebody would ,for sure, take the ball and run with it, insisting that my set up was in dire need of an overhaul. It is not. Look up my old posts if you're curious. It's listed there.

Or just look here at the last post:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1396957550&openusid&zzWlutke&4&5#Wlutke

Onhwy61

Agreed. People with super loud bikes, half helmets, no earplugs and no wind screen should not take extended rides on the freeway to do critical listening.

Zd542 -

Thanks for the opinion. Everybody's got one.

Ctsooner -

That is not my system or question. I'm not the OP.
Check my last response to the thread.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1396957550&openusid&zzWlutke&4&5

Ctsooner -

The new 2 series Nordost has taken a ridiculously large sonic leap and does not even resemble the thin sounding Nordost of the past. You should take a listen. The Satori Shotgun is a true shotgun (that means double run). You should research that as well. If the Treo is not good enough for you then the Quatro will not help. The reason you are unhappy is your system synergy. Get new cables and perhaps an amp. Or have Richard Vandersteen set up your speaker again. They may have moved. Of course you realize I am saying this all tongue-in-cheek to make a point. You didn't ask for, need or particularly like my ignorant dissing of your system, did you? Of course not. Keeping the thread about the Treos avoided all the second guessing, imaginary problems with my gear, my imaginary discontentment with same, and the resultant imaginary cures. That is why I didn't want to post my system specifics. I realize you mean well. No hard feelings.

Tomic601 =

You make a good point. I'll go back for another demo with an open mind and a battle plan. I'll bring my own music, have them set up the speakers properly and use something better than the single run Kimber 8TC wire in a split HI/LO configuration. Stay tuned..

I just got back from another demo of the Treos at a different dealer. The first demo that I mentioned in my OP was sort of slapped together by my local dealer. The speakers were walked into an approximate triangle, Kinber 8TC hooked up as a bi-wire and tied to an integrated tube amp of unknown power rating - "I don't know". Hmmm. Today was much different - with different results. I had emailed Randy at Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica that I might be stopping by about noon the next day (today) and that I was interested in the Treos. When I arrived there they were, already set up, wired up and the gear warmed up with Diana Krall on a Basis/Lyra Atlas combo, ARC REF2 phono and Ref5 (SE ?, I didn't notice), Audio quest IC's and SC and ARC REF 150's I believe. Randy was knowledgeable, friendly and accommodating. I give him five out of five stars.
So how many stars did the Treo earn in this new configuration? Hint: not 5. True, the top end sizzle was completely absent, as in gone. Not tipped up at all. Star for the Treo.
The midrange was a treat. Clean, clear and focussed like my 3A Sigs just can't by comparison. Female vocals were really well done. Piano, check. imaging, check. Three more stars for the Treo.
The bass. The bass (shakes head) - A deal killer for me. Sometimes ok, sometimes not. But when it was not, it could be really distracting. Thump, Thump. Definitely do a demo with your music preference before making a decision because YMMV. Add no stars.
Now I'm stepping aside and let the thread live or die on its own. I've got my answer. Thanks to all you who participated. It's been a blast!

Ctsooner -

I made a vague comment to Randy about the bass, not specific as to the quality or the quantity. His response was that the Treo was designed to be used up against a wall to reinforce the bass, and that they would have a bigger sound. They were out from the wall a few feet by necessity - he has a ton of excellent gear in a very modest size room. What I did not ask him to specifically address was the *quality* of the bass. I found the bass was ok at adding "meat to the bones" of say a vocalist or piano. But when called upon to be the driving instrumental force it too often resulted in an abbreviated thud that was neither tight nor tuneful. I'm certainly no expert but I attribute this to a small driver in a small ported cabinet. I left my vinyl at home (motorcycle, 300 mile round trip) and brought along a well recorded CD with appropriate tracks - Putumayo "Blues Lounge". Some tracks ok, some not, played on an Ayre multi format player at a very moderate volume, one that allowed conversation without a raising of voice.
My 40 minute snapshot of the Treos can only be taken for what it is - a first impression. Anyone interested in them should take a serious listen for themselves. I'm sure you have gotten yours all sorted out to your satisfaction. They are not for me, however.

Mr-m said:

"I would like to listen to my Treos with a couple of Vandy subs ... I think that might alleviate some of the bass issues Wlutke talked about. That is if he would be so inclined to check it out. "

I'm 6 1/2 hour round trip from checking that out for you. Could you possibly take it upon yourself to confirm?

As far as rumbling motorcycles go, and audiophile helmets, for that matter, here is my set up. I have a Honda 1.3 liter, liquid cooled V-4 sport touring bike with stock Honda pipes. You can't hear the exhaust until you hit 80 mph. I sit behind an electrically adjustable barn door of a windshield and wear 32 dB expand-to-fit foam earplugs. My Arai Signet-Q helmet has blue tooth speakers. My Zumo GPS has mp3 and blue tooth, giving me turn by turn voice priority over the music. I do crank up the volume to get past the earplugs. I did not use the mp3 for the trip though. The speakers also connect my wife and I via blue tooth intercom. The foam covered boom mikes are vox with a threshold high enough to overcome any wind noise - which isn't an issue even in use. Think conversation in a Honda Accord with a back window cracked. Maybe not audiophile but hi-tech fun!

Other observations:

The Treo central image (vocal) was very natural, a bit laid back behind the speakers, smaller than life size. The perspective was as if from a box seat above the stage, maybe five feet above the vocalist. Even though the actual image appeared only a couple of feet behind the speakers, the smaller size gave an impression of a greater distance and larger soundstage - Fleetwood Mac Rumours, "Oh, Daddy" track. I liked it. Diana Krall at the piano had a similar presentation. The 3A Sigs are more life size on the Fleetwood Mac. Laid back, smaller stage but more "face to face".

To my ears the Treos are a step forward in the mids and a step backward in the bass (from the 3A sig). I really wanted to like the Treos but the bass is unacceptable. Since the cure is sub woofers (or Quatros at twice the price) I’ll keep my 3A Sigs. I suspect much of the improvement in the Treo mids is due to the ease of driving the small Treo woofer, unloading the amplifier, or in the case of the Quatro, no woofer to drive at all (self powered). That would explain why Vandersteen has not married the bass drivers and cabinet of the 3A Sig to the tweeter and mid cabinet of the Treo - potentially a real winner without the $7k increase - giving the people what they want instead of a magic show - look at this hand (mids) and ignore what the other hand is doing (bass).

What I am hearing is better quality bass in the 3A Sig for rock music.  What I hear from the Treo is better mids but a small ported driver that fails miserably on rock music.  Not because it lacks low end.  It doesn't.  It thuds quite loudly.  Believe me, if the Treos had better quality bass than the Sig *on rock* I would own them.  They just don't keep the rock beat rollin'.  If the Treo lights your fire on orchestral, by all means enjoy.  

The Treo has better mids, and the CT undoubtedly has better treble. That’s giving them their due. This discussion is about bass, so hifimans "well put" comments are outside the parameters of this discussion, which is about the unaided bass of the Treo run full range. My priority for a music system is musical involvement. Accurate or not, the Sigs never boot me out of a boogie mood, dropping the ball so severely that I think I’m listening to the wimpy Treo. That’s right. The Treo is Wimpy. The saying is "there’s no replacement for displacement". It holds true more than ever for rock, at any volume. If the Treo is selling 8 to 1 then there’s either a lot of subs being sold or a lot of small chamber, small jazz and acoustical going on. Treos are great speakers for that. Be happy and go with it. Or get subs. Or Quatros. Just don’t run Treos full range and expect small driver miracles. It ain’t gonna happen. Rockers be warned!

hifimans response was directed to me personally in response to my observations of the Treos unaided bass.  He extolled the virtues of the mids and treble, stating that he had no experience with the Treos run full range, therefor no opinion on the bass.  I guess he wanted to say something positive in response, it just didn't apply to the particular vein the thread was in at the time - outside the parameters of the moment, certainly not outside the parameters of the thread.
 I would like to hear from the "tons of us" that think they boogie on rock, sans subs.  They are noticeably absent from the thread.  Everyone has an opinion and I invite them to express it.  If they stick to describing what they hear, good or bad, about the Treos or the Sigs then fine.  If their product evaluation takes a turn and the owners become the target, I take issue with that.  When I read that owners opinions are dismissed because they're used to inferior sound, or their equipment doesn't allow them to evaluate the product properly, or a musician hears things regular mortals can't, or sight unseen that it's the fault of the set-up - well you get the gist.  The reason I insisted this thread be about the speakers and not those other things is because when I researched before starting this thread all the threads ended up the same.  You jump in, Johnny jumps in, the set-up is blamed and the thread is monopolized and dies.  Only the tiniest bits of fact unrelated to set-up were available about the Treo from real users.  I'm not looking for a fight either, but you're now attempting to monopolize yet another thread and if history is any indication, you won't give up until you sugar coat and white wash anything that could be construed as a negative about a Vandersteen product.  I'll fight you on it.  The public deserves a decent thread with real information.  I've fought for it, here it is.  
Would I buy the Treo with subs?  If I could fit the subs in the same room with my wife (she's a feisty 105 lbs.) I would certainly entertain the notion.  As stated, I like the Treo for polite music.  It just doesn't get down and boogie - for me and for others who actually have spoken up here on their own behalf.  Caveat Emptor.

By monopolize I meant continuously and insistently undermining any and all opinions that portray the Vandersteen in any but the most glorious light.   I say the Treo is wimpy, because it is in my eyes.  I don't say things about the ability of Treo owners to properly evaluate a speaker, whether it be a fault of their equipment or what they might be used to hearing, or suggest that they are out of their league and dismiss them outright.   Sound familiar?   Unfounded undermining of credibility just to bolster your own.  It has no rightful place in this thread or any other.  So don't wear that halo too proudly.  
My observation (not accusation) that out of the ton of owners you know that think the Treo rocks, and all of the 8 -1 new owners of the Treo, you are the only one claiming such here on a 10,000 view thread.  That speaks louder than 8 - 1 statistics, super Vandersteen design or not.  There is one person on this thread that thinks the Treo rocks.  One.  One relentless person.  Would it hurt your pride so much to agree that the Treo would be a better rocker if it pushed more air?  

Thanks for the input Johnny.  I love my Vandersteens - it seems like we all do.  They're a great value and tick so many boxes for the money.  I'm not sure that I'll ever be in Verona, NJ but if I ever am (you never know) I will definitely stop by.

Bill

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

ig316b -

I'm with you.  I like the Treo but sadly no subs allowed in my room.  

A final follow up.  I've replaced the 3A's with a year old pair of perfect and beautiful rosewood lacquered Acoustic Zen Crescendo MKII's for half price (!).  Not a fair comparison but they destroy the 3A's and steamroller the Treos.  They've got that warm musical sound similar to Vandersteen so it was an easy transition.   

ctsooner - 

The Treo and 3A Sig do not compare on any level with the Crescendo 2, price or performance wise.  "Destroy" and "steamroller" were not meant in a harsh way given the cost difference and "In another league", as over used as it is, I feel has lost its impact and only hints at the difference.  Funny you find the Zens are not coherent.  Reviews rave about exceptional coherency and, in fact, music just flows in the room without aberration.  Different room, different gear, different ears.  I could have settled for Quatros but I found it difficult to get past having to plug my speakers into the wall, add a high pass filter with an option of one (1) brand wire pigtail and equalization that requires the speaker never be moved again without Vandertoning.  That's just me, not a put down on the Quatros.  I'm sure they're amazing for the money.  BTW congratulations on your purchase!  

Your unending and depthless devotion to Vandersteen is legendary.  There is no comparison between the Treo and 3A Sig vs the Crescendo.  Talk about a credibility gap, yours is delusional.  Enjoy your precious.

The Crescendo MKII crushes the 3A Sig and the Treo.   I guess that's a blanket in your world.  That's silly.
You attempted to assasinate my credibility, I see your Vandersteen obsession so overboard as to be delusional.  Rude in, rude out.
"Precious" is from Lord of the Rings.  
Here's what I wrote 9/5/2016 about you and Vandersteen threads:
" continuously and insistently undermining any and all opinions that portray the Vandersteen in any but the most glorious light"..."Unfounded undermining of credibility just to bolster your own."
Prophetic.  

Ditto for your Quatros.  Now let's both go play our stereos and have fun.

Anyone in San Diego looking for 3A Sigs please check my ad on USaudiomart. No shipping (no boxes) but will make you a killer deal.
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649355334-vandersteen-3a-signature-used-pair-excellent-condition/...