Vandersteen Treo vs 3A Sig as upgrade

That's freaking awesome Wlutke. Too funny as I'm not a biker (son wants to be though) and that's a fun read!

CT here. Yes, I own and LOVE my Treo's. I have the ceramic tweeter and not even the CT version (much smoother and detailed).

First off, I use Johnny Rutan and ONLY Johnny Rutan when making decisions. I drive 3 hours to his place to get my gear. I've bought few items used from close friends whom I trust or from the internet. Johnny StiLL takes the time to help me out in decisions and I feel guilty not purchasing from him, lmao....He's THAT good and I've dealt with the top dealers in the world since 1969. That's for the OP who doesn't know me from Adam.

As for the Treo's...please come back and post what your system is and the set up as Johnny has asked. He is offering you his FREE advise, because he gives a darn. BTW, he sells Proacs, B&W's and many other speakers so he gets it.

My room can be a bit hot and the bass can be flabby if not set up properly. I have the Ayre AX 5 Twenty, but ran the Treo's originally with the Ayre AX7e. I have a Basis TT set up with a Benz MC cart and Rhea phono stage. I use the Empirical Audio OSDE/SE fully loaded for digital and it's served through a Mac Mini with a separate linear power supply that was hot rodded from the owner of Empirical Audio for his shows. I run it all through a Synergistic Research Power Cell 10 MK II Tesla power cord.

The room is a 15X20 loft with a 43" wall behind my system. I'm more sensitive to grating highs than most are. I don't like most speakers that get great marks or are very expensive. I also hear extension and need that in a system. I also need deep and tuneful bass. I hate flabby bass and will trade quantity for quality any day of the week. I also need them to disappear.

I was a Proac guy for years and dealt with a tilted top end but they disappeared and had tight and low bass. The Treo's are in a different league from any speaker I've heard under 10k. I only have the ceramic tweeters and fed decent material they are natural. Listen to piano properly recorded and you hear it in your room. I don't hear the speakers and most others who listen say the same thing. Bass is fairly deep (bass is the most expensive part of things and I have a system that delivers it in spades). Once I upgrade the amp, my speakers just went along for the ride. They just keep rising to the occasion. I personally don't like digital. I have a ton and play high rez only for now, but when you put on the Basis TT, the system just relaxes and you get to fall in love with it all over again.

I no way have I ever heard the Treo's or any of the Vandy speakers sound like you say. The 3a Sigs bass is deeper than the Treo's, but I doubt you even heard music that was recorded that low unless they had you listen to pipe organ music. The Treo's bass is much better quality and that's why they cost so much more (remember I said bass is where the cost of most systems is). The Treo's go pretty darn low though. I've heard pipe organ music that probably is going around 30 Hz possibly and the sound was there. Furniture was vibrating due to the bass but you heard every note separately. They also play complex music extremely well. When you are listening to voices and tricky guitar along with thumping bass, it's clear. There isn't any congestion due to the design of the speaker. There are no extra waves of music smearing what you hear. Most folks need to listen to these speakers a few times to fully understand the emotion they are conveying, because they are used to listening to hi fi speakers that are often tipped up a db or two. Heck it's a known fact that many of the major name speaker designers do this. I even read this in a review of a well known high end speaker when browsing yesterday.

Since you took the time to post, please let use all know the answers to Johnny's questions so that you can get some professional help and be happy with your purchase. Heck, even Johnny's system gets moved a bit without him knowing. Some demo's aren't perfect and he'll figure it out and fix it. Always simple fixes too, but even not set up perfectly, they sound great and I've never heard them hot, but I've also never fed them digital that often times is searing hot. JMHO...feel free to PM me if you want to talk about this on the phone. Always open. Let's get you set up and happy.

Interesting. Bass is the most expensive part of the spectrum to get right. Teh Quatro's give you that last bit of deep, tuneful bass, but honestly I have had no problems getting great bass from mine as long as the recordings gave it to me. I have found that some of my recordings, both vinyl and Digital haven't always been up to snuff. At least you got to hear them at Randy's. What did he say about the bass?

Ok, I'm going to cut and paste your system and let's take if from there as you have some good bones. This thread is still about Treo's still. I've heard Treo's with electronics that are considered HOT...very hot on the upper end and they still didn't sound out of control hot like most others do with this particular amp. I couldn't listen for more than an album, but that was better than getting up after the first cut or two (Ask Johnny, I can't handle unnatural highs at all).

Let's do this as you asked for help and that's what I'd love to do for you:

I have an Aries 3 turntable with JMW 10.5i tonearm.
I bought it new 7-8 years back.

I would like to upgrade the tonearm any suggestions ?
I use a Dynavector XX-2 Cartridge and I'll spend up to $3500 new or used.

I like the sound with the 10.5i but will upgrading the tonearm improve the sound ?

As time goes on I listen to more vinyl , almost every night.
Would it be better to purchase a used turntable with tonearm for $6000 ?

Thanks any input appreciated.

First off you have a fine TT and arm. Let's spend the money where it's best spent and that's on other components and cables. I still wonder what your electronics are. If you'd PM me or just post it here, that would help a great deal. The one thing about VPI is that they are pretty neutral sounding and that arm is a good arm. It's not a Rega (I find them very thin personally).

The Treo's need to be driven by an amp with some wallop behind them as do most speakers. Even highly efficient speakers need a lot of current (not watts necessarily). You say you want bass, you have to make sure your electronics can handle that.

Again, I'm sure you have decent electronics and if you need to change them out, I'm sure that's very easy. Heck, even a high powered NAD separate amp and pre amp can match well with Treo's. I've heard them together and you'd be SHOCKED as how good they sound. I'm very very serious hear folks. You don't need to spend an arm and a leg to get musical, emotional sound from these Treo's, however the better you get, the better they sound. To me, that's a very revealing and neutral speaker. Let's get you on track here and happy.

Oh, ok, that makes more sense, Sorry...:)
Nice set up if you ask me. I would make one recommendation for your system and that's to look into a cable that is more neutral like Audioquest or something like that. I made the switch and am so happy that I did. What cable did the dealer have on the VAndy system when he played them for you? I have found how important cables are the better my system gets. We all know that and we all talk about it, but we all too often we don't put cables into our system and listen. I did that. I bought AQ from Johnny (was all MIT for years and years with some Kimber thrown in) when I got my Treo's and I had some MIT top of the line stuff. I was in shock when I went back and forth. I also noticed that my MIT wasn't a bi wire and that made a HUGE difference also. I agree with Richard in that you must use a bi wire run of cable. Even using two lesser cables rather than one expensive cable makes a big difference, or at least it did in my own system. I also know that Richard really does use the AQ cables in his speakers. You can see this in his crossovers for the Quatro on up. There is a reason for this. I won't go into the physics involved, but when you have a first order, phase and time correct speaker the cables will make a huge difference. Possibly more so than other speakers. That's something that folks don't realize. I had a great conversation with AJ Conte of Basis about cables and passing phase and time correct signals. I understood about 10% of what he said, but man did it make sense, lol. I have heard the same thing from a couple of folks I had the pleasure meeting with my former dealer in RI (no names but think MIT, Kimber and Transparent after their nasty break with MIT). Not all cables, regardless of price or what dealers want to tell us, will pass the signals properly. Not saying Nordost doesn't at all, but I'm saying that AQ or even Basis cables will get you where you want to be. As long as you are getting one of the battery pack cables you are doing to be fine. The newest AQ cables for the price are KILLER I personally feel.

I'm going to sell my Treo's as I want to move up to the Quatro. Those are the sweet spot in the Vandy line for me as I want to tune the bass to my room. If you don't need to tune it to your room and you are happy with quality bass to the low 30's, then the Treo is killer and a world beater for the cost. There is a reason that you don't find many used Treo's on the market nd when you do, it's because we are moving up in the Vandy line. At least Richard helps us protect our investments, lol.

Wlutke, honestly, your response didn't bother me at all and that was even before I read the tongue in cheek part. You made the assumption that it would I guess, lol. I never take criticism on boards personally as I only know a few folks here personally. Here is the only think I posted about the Nordost brand:
Not saying Nordost doesn't at all, but I'm saying that AQ or even Basis cables will get you where you want to be.

I've heard all the Nordost cable including the series two from Odin to Heimdall. Mostly on Wilson speakers and I am not a Wilson fan at all, so that's part of it. I've had series two in my system (the Valhalla 2). It took a bit of the emotion away for my ear. That said, it was a very detailed set of cables and sounded good. I just prefer the AQ cables with Ayre and Vandy's. My system right now is ruthlessly revealing while still being totally non fatiguing. Your Nordost cables will never be fatiguing on the Vandys, that's a given. We all like different sound and that's why we keep all these brands in business. I have friends who use all types of cables with Vandy's and one of them is a close friend. He was using a brand other than AQ in his system and he complained that he didn't love the upper midrange. He brought two separate (true bi wire) pair of AQ Oak in 8' runs. He immediately switched over to all AQ and said he loves the system. I know people who don't like AQ cables and swear by MIT or Transparent. I've heard the Transparent on those same Wilsons and not liked them at all. Again, it may be the speakers, but I felt exhausted after an hour of listening.

In the end they are all great in your system as long as you love them. I just tend to try new things when I make a change in the system. That's how I switch from Proac's to Vandersteen. I wasn't even going to listen to them until Johnny asked me to after I auditioned some Proac's....

Jafant, we'd all like to hear your examples.....What didn't impress you enough that you make this same statement on any Vandersteen thread? I'm sure that you can just make a list of speakers and post, but at least that would be better than a hit and run, lol. j/k

Wlutke,
Serious questions. Forget everything else in either of our systems. This probably isn't about the components, but the set up of them. First off did you bring your own music to listen to? If so, do you know the recordings really well? Some recordings are loved by all, but sometimes not recorded the best. That's probably not it, but I thought I'd thow it out there.

After speaking with someone who knows Vandy's as good as anyone, there is a possibility that the tilt wasn't enough. If the high energy hits before the mids and bass, then you will experience exactly what you said you did. That would also go for the bass problems. I have a feeling that the speaker was knocked out of whack somehow. If not that, then I need to ask, were you standing up listening? I should have thought of that right away and I'm sorry I didn't. That too will make the speaker sound tilted up a bit.

I hope you come back to this thread to let me know. The bottom line is that no cable or component will be so dramatic as to make the speakers sound so different than they should sound. Some components are just better than others. When talking about cables in my system or even other components, they are usually shade subtle differences unless I'm upgrading from an Ayre AX7e to the AX5 Twenty. The cost better give me that type of upgrade and oomph....

Z, that could easily be it also. Just so many reasons many speakers don't sound the way they should and that's for many brands. Funny as folks talk about how difficult setting up a set of speakers can be, but if you have a great dealer, they'll come over to do it or be able to walk you through it. I"m actually going to purchase a laser so that I can easily set up the tilt of my Treo's in case they get moved. It's just so easy to do by lining up the dot's on the back wall and using a tape measure to measure the tweeters from your ears If I recall correctly. Johnny set mine up and it only took about ten minutes and most of that was putting the spikes on, lol. If he can do it in ten, then I bet I can learn to do it in 20 ;)......I do hope that the OP comes back to the thread as I didn't like how I answered him originally and I'm sorry for that. This thread is a good one and I tend to keep it that way. He taught me a great lesson about jumping to conclusions that most of us do about cables. I was taught a great lesson last night ;).

Thanks Z, I get that, but it's also not easy to communicate via net boards. I"m very well known on Oklahoma Sooner internet sports boards and I've been doing it since 97 or so and I often am taken the wrong way. Bottom line is that he wants good advice and if he reads my last post, that probably is the real reason for what he heard.

LOL..W, if you liked everything but the bass wasn't low enough, then you could easily get two Vandy subs to pair with the Treo's. YES, this WILL give you sub terrainian bass and of high quality. It will also help the Treo's a bit, but it will really be a nice thing for your amp as it won't have to work as hard, plus the way Richard does the bass amps, they will have the same sound signature of your amp. That's the part I personally like the best.

Again, you are giving them a try. I just don't know of a lot of speakers in this class that will give you full range sound with the subtle qualities that make properly set up Vandy's special. as we all know, getting great bass does cost a few dollars. Please keep us posted on your quest. The great dealers like Randy, Bruce in SD and Johnny in NJ all have other speakers they offer to folks who don't love a specific brand. You should also call Richard. I promise you that he'll be up front and brutally honest about how to get the most bass out of Treo's and he'll be the one who can tell you what you would get with a pair of his subs. Good luck and keep us posted please

Thanks for your response Shakey. If you read my resonses in this thread you know that I have said it may not be for him, so not sure where you get your post from. He said that it was both quality and quantity, so your statement doen't make sense to me. Someone mentioned using Vandy subs and I finished my post with a response to the question that was asked. Since you have proven in any thread on Vandy's that you don't know much about them, I'll say it again, using the subs with them allows them to play in the 20's with authority and frees up the Treo's to do what they do best. I personally like the Quatro's much better than using the Treo's with subs, but if you get used Vandy subs or a good deal on them, it's worth it for many who have done this and been very very happy.

Shaky, you are out of your league on this one. Either way, why would it matter to you? IF OP loved the Treo sound and wanted the subs to get all of what he is looking for, shouldn't you be supportive? Nearly everyone who is active in this hobby will tweek their systems to achieve greater response. Some tweeks cost much more than a sub or two. Do you know what the high pass filter does or how it works in the Vandy's? As Johnny was kind enough to explain to you, it doesn't work the same as your sub. Your dislike for anything Vandersteen (just look at your post history) is obvious to most of us who post. I've had more than a couple of folks email or PM me asking if I know who you are and why you jump into any Vandy discussion and dismiss them. Many times it's the same things that you bring up and they've already been explained to you, but you are a persistant poster, I'll give you credit there.

So I guess the only question for OP is the budget. Does he want Treo's with subs and get all that he's wanting or does he continue his quest. I just thank OP for letting us follow his journey. Sounds like his bike rides to listen to audio are also a fun part of his journey. W, please keep us informed as you have. You've taught me a lot about answering audio questions and how NOT to start answers and I thank you for that. You earn stars as a poster in my book. Thanks

Mr, M. wife is from Wisc...Have we talked about that yet? Maybe, Too funny. thanks for the laugh

Shakey, I'll just go by your posts IRT your feelings on Vandy speakers. Just at I love them as do so many others (there's a reason they are so popular and have been for soooooo long).

Shakey, it's not always about how MANY you own, it's about picking the right ones from the get go. I am able to listen and go through the process and chose the ones I love and stay with them happily. Been doing that since the 60's (ouch, did I just say that? wow). I've never had a problem selling my older gear either, so I assume that my ear isn't that much different than most folks.

Shakey, the bass questions have been answered by both me, other posters as well as the most respected Vandy dealer. Richard himself could answer and you'd find a reason to question him based on your history of posts IRT Vandy speakers, lol....That's fine though as that's the reason we have the boards. Your comments are IRT VAndy's and not other high end speakers. Are 'other high end speakers' identical to the Treo's?? The Treo's are the only speakers we are discussing and the Vandy sub's are the only subs we are speaking of. They are totally different that most other speaker sub set ups and if the subs play99% of the music and the TReo's play 1%, but the systems sounds like a 50k set of speakers and gives a listener all they want, does it matter HOW it's done?

The fact remains that the OP (and most of us) do have a budget and that's why we all go through what we do as we can't afford to purchase a speaker that BETTER do everything. The bottom line is that if he wants all the great stuff the Treo does AND he is willing to pick up the subs for that integrate with them, then he'll most probably be blown away by the sound and be happy.

More importantly, Z needs to share the site for those audiophile helmets. Do they use various mikes to eliminate the rubble?

He's a good guy I'm sure. Honestly, the OP is a great poster and I loved the way he dealt with things. Taught me a lesson or two. I personally hope he gets to hear the Treo's with the subs that are set up properly. That's basically like 98% of the Quatro's. He obviously gets the sound from 100 hz and up. For the money it's really hard to beat the Treo's and when you augment the bass correctly, it's devastating. Spoke with a guy the other day who runs his with two Vandy subs and he loves it. He moved the TReo's out 3' from the wall and they disappeared.

How's that for keeping to the OP's post?

I like the perspective in my room, however I do want the Quatro's. I think they are the sweet spot in Richard's line. That's why the Treo's with two of his subs would get that larger size you eluded to. That's the speaker I'm saving up for and will buy as soon as I get a fair offer on my new Treo's, lol.

Shakey, stay on topic dude. I already have a few who are interested. I'm not in a hurry though ;)....anything else that I may answer for you about my life? Maybe we should all stay on topic, lol. Feel free to PM me with your questions though.

Shakey, I promise you that you can't make me touchy. May come off that way, but I was laughing when I hit send ;). I really messed up my post as it was supposed to be taken in the totally opposite vein. Sorry bout that.

I'm currently in Japan for a few weeks but I saw this thread still going so I thought I'd share.
Vandersteen will tell you that set up correctly the Treos with the pair subs will get you very very close to the Quatros and allow you to put the Treos in the proper place,met for your room. Very flexible system. That's from the company. Your dealer can help you set it up and dial it in correctly. It's pretty easy

I was doing a search on Treo's as I have finally put them up for sale (now will have the money to get Quatro's).  I reread the whole thread and it is very interesting.

The OP wanted to know what the Treo's sound like.  I've now lived with them for well over a year and I LOVE them.  If they don't sell, I'll be ok with that.  I often have to listen at low levels on Sat and Sun mornings.  I am in shock at how great they sound at any level. Even at the low levels they are dynamic as heck.  They are like listening to a point source driver only at mostly full range.  There was concern over the QUALITY of the bass.  Folks, if you want quality, it's there in spades.  The quantity isn't what the Quatro is, but again, augmenting with the high pass filter and Vandy Q subs you do get that quantity and the quality will tighten up a spec too.  I wouldn't ever use anyone else's sub with it though. That won't work.  I listen to a ton of vinyl still as well as high rez, well recorded digital on a very high end DAC.   No it's not cheap, but this is about how good the Treo's can sound.  The sound was described as a bit behind the speakers.  Yes, if you want something in your face go listen to some others. The new B&W's are speakers that are in your lap. Not my cup of tea, but many love that.  These speakers must be set up really well (thanks Johnny) because they open up even and give me a very large and realistic soundstage.  The stage goes well past the edge of the speakers too.  My room is decent.  It needs a bit of help on first reflection, but I have MS and am unable to put the quilts I purchased up on the wall where they need to be.

These are chameleon's in that they rock, play large scale orchestral, give me the guitar plucks from Joe Bonamassa's fingers and the emotion of his blues, allow me to love Bill Evan's piano on Kind of Blue and even on Cowboy Junkies, the female vocal can be hauntingly good.

They are just clean. No distortion at all on mine.  That allows them to be 'ruthlessly revealing without fatigue' as I posted earlier in this thread.  Not only do I stand by that, they have gotten better.  I don't think I even had them fully broken in when I originally posted. I also have upgrade a few parts of the system.  Not sure if I had the Ayre AX-5 Twenty upgrade at the time.  I assume I was using the Empirical Audio OSDE/SE (with every upgrade Steve offers for it).  

I thought it was cool that the CT version made the front over of The Absolute Sound last month I think it was.  It's a GREAT review and a fun read if you Google it.  

What you are hearing is more bass with lesser quality through the 3's. Those are a great choice in the lower price range however the Treo,s do everything else much better. Just ask Richard and he'll tell you the same thing. The Treo's sound great on material that has true low information. I heard great low information yesterday playing some orchestral tracks in 192. The quality was outstanding. Do I want more?  Yes and that's why I want the Quatro. Bass is the most expensive part of audio. At these price ranges there have to be compromises. I do disagree about set up. The Treo's were really easy to set up. We just put them 8' apart and put them about 4' into the room. Roughly what every speaker in this room has been. Then we uses string and placed it to my ear and made sure my ears were equi distant from each tweeter. Then we put on the spikes and used a lazier pen to align each tweeter on the back wall. After that we took about 15 minutes to set the tilt. That part was easy. Afterwards we rechecked the tweeters on the back wall to makes sure they were properly aligned after tilt. It took two of us about 30 minutes. Maybe I could dial them in better but they wound as good as I've ever heard them in various places. The CT version is better by a fair amount but at a premium. Personally I take quality bass over quantity. These still go down into the low 30's and with the quality They  give you most are highly satisfied. That takes nothing away from the 3's which are also an amazing value. We are talking about two great values. If we were talking about the Quatro vs the 5 we'd have a similar conversation but all have to agree that we love our Vandersteens and feel we have a great speaker value. 

Interesting.  I honestly don't do much orchestral, but it does have very low bass.  I listen to much more rock and heavy metal and have found the bass to be satisfying overall, but i do want the Quatro to get better and more bass.  I heard the Quatro and 7 mk2's yesterday at Audio Connection as Richard was there visiting.  The 3's do go lower, but the Treo has better quality according the to designer of the speakers.  If you feel you are getting better quality and more bass in your 3A's, then you are as it's your ears.  jafant, that's fair that you discount both speakers, but there are so many folks who love them as I heard folks talking about switching to them yesterday.  That's why other's can sell their wares also.

The one thing I will say is that Vandersteen is about to come to market with a new sub that will only be sold in pairs and will ROCK.  As long as you have a speaker that goes down to the high 30's you can use it without losing coherency as the bass needs to overlap a full octave to achieve that.  That's why it's so difficult for anyone to properly mate a sub with a non full range type of speaker.  it is pretty interesting stuff how he mates the sub's amp with whatever amp you are using to keep the same sound signature.  Just thought I'd share and this thread is a good one to throw it out in.  

So glad you were able to pull that trigger. I know some keep thinking the 3's are better than the Treo's, but I just don't get that at all.  I like the 3's and for the cost, they are like the others...a great value, but the Treo is not the same speaker.  It takes everything to a new level and that includes the bass.  Deep isn't the most important thing in this price range, it's about the quality and the Treo goes darn deep with plenty of punch in most rooms IF it's on the recording.

Yes, I send everyone to Johnny only because I totally trust him. For those who aren't into Vandy's, he realizes that right away and will show them Proac's or something they will love.  He's about system building and that's a lost art, although it's refreshing to see some of the dealer posters on here who do get it.

Well put Hifiman.  @ig316b, where do you live again?  The thing about the Treo's is that they are SOOOO good as the price.  Bass is the most expensive thing to do correctly.  that's where most of the manufacturer's seem to make the most compromises as so many folks aren't used to hearing top quality bass in a room.  This is why the mini monitor is so popular I think.  I like that the Treo goes very low and is very tuneful.  I've had some top components in my system and the Treo just keeps up with them. They don't have the slam factor that I like on some songs, but honestly, when I hit the volume a bit, the bass in my room is just outstanding.

That said, I do want the Quatro's if and when I move the Treo's.  I do like the adjustable bass and for me it's worth it. I feel strongly that the Quatro is the sweet spot in the line.  If you can't get the Quatro's, the Treo or the CT version will make you happy and you can then get subs later on if you feel you really need them as Hifiman said.

thanks Johnny.  The difference isn't huge, but it's there.  A bit larger soundstage, some extra coherency and a touch more natural on the top end, but not a huge difference.  Carmenc, as I said, I'm selling my Treo's in cherry to move up to Quatro's if you have interest.  Where do you live?

It was fun rereading this whole thread.  Shows that folks all hear very differently, that's for sure.  Ask Richard the difference between the 3 sig's and the Treo's, lol.  

Carmenc, you have an email and PM, lol.  Let's talk about the Treo's I'm selling.  Hifiman shared the biggest difference.  Richards ceramic tweeter coating has done a great job at stopping most of the ringing, but the CT is better and that's why it costs so much more to make, sell and replace.  Only you can figure out if it's worth the extra cost or not.  

I've been very happy with the ceramic tweeter. I just want the bass control for my room.  I spoke with Richard about the differences in the two. I have heard the CT speakers since day one.  I personally think they are the top tweeters I've ever heard.  He just gets the tradeoffs right.  That's so hard to do and why so many love his speakers.  They are very difficult to dislike. Some do, but you can't please everyone.  

Yes, this could be a win win.  

D, give me a call tomorrow and we can figure it out, lmao....also I'm hoping to get out to Madtown again in OCT with the wife. If so, I will plan a meeting ;)....LOL.

Hifiman....that's one of the best ways to answer this question (that's always being asked).  Funny as I was a Proac guy for years and years.  I didn't like Vandy's until the last few years.  I think I just realized what the music was all about and that's it's not the hifi part.  As Vandersteen owners realize, the excitement is there in spades when it's produced that way.  That's the cool thing.  They are as revealing as any other speaker on the market, but when they are, they are coherent and sound the way the cymbal or piano are meant to be.  The mids are lush, when that's what's called for.  I appreciate a pair or Harbeths or Audio Notes (or their relatives) for their musicality.  Wilson's and Magico's are the dynamic duo, but the Vandersteens will give you the best of both worlds like you basically stated.  

This thread is turing into a favorite one for me. Yes, partly because I am a Vandersteen fan boy, but it's really interesting to read what many of you other Vandersteen owners hear through your gear.  

Oh, many of you know Johnny Rutan who owns Audio Connection in Verona, NJ.  He often posts on there and I think he may even be on this thread.  He's found an inexpensive integrated that mates extremely good with all the Vandersteen's all the way up to the Quatro's.  I think it's under 2k or so.  He is pairing it up with the Ayre Codex, decent AQ cables and a Clearaudio TT if you want for an incredible system that has true value.  Hi end isn't always about how much you spend, it's about HOW you spend it.  I wanted to throw that in because so many folks are always getting in touch and asking how they can get into a Treo or more and not kill themselves with associated gear.  We all like to share when we hear of these things.   Johnny has the name if you want to PM him from this board or call him.  (not an ad at all, but I like it when folks hear of something good and share with me). 

Oh, I just noticed when I scrolled up that he's been posting here:  https://forum.audiogon.com/users/audioconnection

Interesting M.  Personally, I go with the Quatro all day long.  I"m really big on coherency and I also need matching subs in a system.  That's just me, but many do like the Treo better with the subs.  SUB...jective, right? lol

Are you talking about the crossovers?  Yes, adding subs you will only run your main amp from 100hz on up so it frees it up to sound better.  Richard has shared that in order to integrate a sub, you need a full range speaker with a one octave cross over in order to do it right.  At least right for what he professes.  The way he does his subs is that the amp mimics the main amp you are using, so that's why it will sound better than any other brand with Vandersteens.

I wasn't saying the Treo CT with one sub wouldn't sound great, just that personally I feel it needs both. I've heard them that way a few times now and it makes a huge difference, but to me I still fee Quatro's are better when set up properly.  Was it at Stereo Unlimited in SD?  I bought a ton of stuff from Bruce back in the early 80's when I was stationed out there.  It's a great store if that's where you were.

No grain of salt at all.  When I read stuff that I don't fully agree with I always try to go listen to what they are talking about.  It's not easy, but I try unless it's outlandish to me, lol.  

It's all good man.  We all love listening to MUSIC and not the components.

Funny Randy as I was a Proac guy and did that audition (before the ribbon  tweeter) and became a Vandy guy.  Are you in NJ or Dallas? I think those are the two who carry both? lol

I heard those 30R's that you will be auditioning, lol.  I actually bought the Linn Kiko system he had as he wanted to get rid of it and I wanted something for the bedroom.  It's worked ok.

I personally think the Vandersteens are much more detailed, dynamic, realistic etc...  I don't love the Proac bass.  I never did and I have owned three pair for over 20 years. I recently sold all of them.  I still like the Proac's and there is a reason so many Vandersteen dealers carry ProAc also.  Their ribbon is the sweetest Iv'e heard honestly. I like it better than so many of the esoteric 30k plus ribbons.  That's just me, but the CT Vandersteen's magic mids win out.  The presentation is about 20 rows back and not upfront.  I personally like that as it allows the music to mature and I like air around the notes, just like it is at Carnegy Hall or the local Infinity venue we like to go to.  It will be interesting to hear what your thoughts are. 

Last year they had a pair of Zebrawood Quatro's that were gorgeous.  I am still thinking I may go with that veneer when I order mine.  Either that or I may have them upgrade to heavy metal flake dark Crimson.  I think I'd love that look in my room and I'm not selling for a long time so I don't care if folks don't want to buy that look, lol.  The Treo CT's are special speakers.  If you loved the Proac's like I have/do, I think you are in for a treat, unless the guy showing them likes the Proac's better.  I always always keep in mind that the dealers make more on selling Proac's so they often try to steer us that way ;)....Things to always keep in mind when purchasing, lol....you obviously know what you are doing randy.  I've followed your posts, so it will be neat to hear about your auditioning....I forget the guy I worked with there, but I went to OU and have sent them a lot of business over the years.  he was a younger guy I think.   I'd  tell you to say hi for me, lol.

Guys, the bass on the Treo is nearly as low as the 3a sig's, but tighter.  I hear folks make the statement that the 3 bass is better, but it just isn't, especially if things are set up correctly.  Richard is the first to tell you this.  I play everything and I think I've got some very high end gear that is revealing as heck and the Treo bass is much better.  Does it go quite as deep? No, but honestly, very little music has that much information down that low where the difference would be.  What you are listening to is the bass that you are used to and like, which is fine.  The Treo is just a faster speaker and much better overall. If it wasn't, they wouldn't sell it i promise you.  

that takes nothing away from you guys who love your speakers. You should, lol.  

Well put as always Hifiman.  If you are looking to just pressurize a room, then yes, the 3a is your speaker.  I have always said that.  All anyone seems to be saying is the 3a is a better speaker because it moves more air, but that's not giving the Treo's their due.  Just saying you can't have it both ways.  I'm glad that folks love their 3a's.  They should as it's a great speaker.  I'd own one if I didn't have the Treo's.  The 3A Sig has a 8 inch and 10 inch woofer and subwoofer. The Treo has a 6.5 woofer and a 8 inch subwoofer. When it comes to shear power, not quality the old racing adage applies: "there is no substitute for cubic inches". One would have to add a 2Wq to surpass the Model 3 in it ability to move air. The Treo CT outsells the Model 3 by 8 to 1, so the market speakers with their priorities. One more note, the two speakers load the room differently so that can make a big difference. The Treo CT is designed to be used within 1 to 3 feet of the rear wall and the Model 3 is designed to be used 3 to 6 feet into the room. Put the Treo into the room 3 or 4 feet and the bass will lean out.

Yes, for Rock, you want that pressuring bass and often times the poorly recorded stuff sounds better when it's not as revealed. I agree with you on that.  Always have.  I personally don't see why something is outside of a discussion, but thats' fine. Again, I'm not putting down the 3's at all. Your personal feeling is that if something doesn't pressurize a room as much as another speaker that has larger displacement, that it's whimsy...I completely disagree and that we will respectfully disagree on. It's all good. We all listen differently.  I get plenty of reinforcement in my set up and I like hearing individual notes etc.... I was just listening to rock this morning and it had plenty of boogie and drive.  

As for selling 8-1, those are folks who still love rock I can promise you that.  There are tons of us driving them without subs and loving them and being able to boogie.  Just set them up properly and feed them a great signal and most are fine.  

I speak with a lot of Treo owners all the time.  Most of us aren't running our systems full blast anymore.  I can play my system at very loud levels and there is tons of drive.  I'm a former drummer and know full well what it's like to pressurize a room.  Like I have and will say, the 3 goes lower and will give you more quantity, but sometimes even for rock, many of us love quality even more.  

Again, I'm not trying to fight you on this.  I'm really not.  If we were having a beer and talking about this, I think we'd probably agree with each other in the end.  It's the same trade off debate, quality or quantity. There are more rockers out here than you think who are getting plenty of quantity with quality and are happy they have.  Again, like anything, much of it is still in the set up and using the room to reinforce bass.  Will I move up in the line?  Yes, I will and I knew it when I purchases my Treo's last year.  That was and still is my plan.  Do many get Treo's and add a woofer?  Yes, some do, but not many.  At least Richard makes various speakers that allow us to all enjoy anything we listen to and we can easily move up as wanted to get what we want out of our speakers.  To me, this whole discussion just shows why we love our Vandersteen speakers.  If the are wimpy to you, then those are your words and that's all good.  Strong mid 30's to me isn't wimpy, but that's our big difference I think.  If the price was the same, would you own Treo's with subs set up properly or stay with the 3's?  

 Any one who wants can post and should.  I'm not monopolizing anything.  Not sure if Johnny is posting or not as I haven't gone back to read.  Just living in the moment.  

You don't think the Treo's can rock or boogie or whatever and I certainly feel they do as do many  others I speak with.  Didn't know I had to have everyone I speak with about audio posting to prove what I say isn't a lie. As for your comments about me dismissing your thoughts and feelings, nothing is further from the truth. I have posted that I understand what you are saying.  I said that the 3 does go deeper (I've posted that in other threads about them that you haven't read or at least posted on on other boards.  i love the 3's for their price, but the 8-1 purchases of the TReo over the 3's comes directly from Richard.  To me, that's folks who are choosing them over the 3's and many of us do listen to a lot of rock, but we would rather have an overall better speaker even if it doesn't have the displacement and or the room pressurization of the 3.  That's the reason they cost more and Richard has engineered them to be much better.  If you feel the 3 is a better speaker for you, that's cool and I'm honestly happy for you. I really am, but 8-1 would win out over some posters on a board (yes, me included).  Again, those are the facts.  I would venture to say that many of us who ended up with Treo's or Quatro's etc... have listened to the speakers one below and chosen to spend a bit more, because it fit's OUR system and personal tastes.  

Many threads I've read on all the boards meander and go all over the place. I can promise you that I'm not the only one who takes things that way. I have basically spoken about the difference in the two speakers and haven't been talking about other speakers or electronics.  As for the set up part that you take umbrage with, that was directly from Richard.  I'm sorry that upset you, but for any speaker it's important to set them up correctly.  Like I said, mine are about 3 feet from the rear wall I believe and they sound great on all music.  That's not trying to start a fight and it's not white washing a thing.  Honestly I have never said anything negative about the 3's and I haven't taken any swipes at you. If you feel I have, then I'm truly sorry.  Not my intent ever. 

When you read print instead of hearing voice inflection and reading non verbals, you don't always get the other person's thoughts fully.  I love the 3's and feel they are a great value.  The true value statements in the line are the 3's and the Quatro's to me.  

Wlutke, I have said many times that you can't understand where someone is coming from just by the writer word.  I have said that we will respectfully disagree on the Treo being able to rock. I've always said the 3a's move more air and goes lower, but to ME I've said that doesn't mean it rocks better so no, this isn't pride, it's my opinion.  You make accusations towards me that I am undermining any and all opinions of the Vandersteens that aren't my opinion. Ummm, ok.  Whatever you want to think, that's fine.  

I have not said that anyone can't evaluate their speakers or other's speakers at all.  I have just said that the Treo is a more evolved speaker and it better be for the price difference.  That comes directly from the person who invented the speaker as well as others in this thread who have heard the speaker.  The fact that you and some others like the 3a's better doesn't bother me as you think it does.  As I've stated, I honestly am happy for you and others.  

Just because folks don't post, doesn't mean they aren't there.  That goes for any thread on any type of board.  Sports boards, audio, MS support boards etc... I'm on a lot of these boards and it's actually a minority that post in most cases.  I don't know the numbers here.  As for sales, those are real folks who made the decision to purchase one over the other at an 8-1 clip.  Does that mean we are better?  Not in the least, but many of us listen to rock and love it.  Do I want the Treo to move more air?  Sure, but I also can move plenty for my room by turning up the volume.  I don't listen as loudly as many of you do I guess, but be honest, there isn't just one person who feels the way that I do, but that doesn't matter either.  Audio is so personal and we all listen differently and like different things.  

I hope that I haven't really upset you in this thread, as your written word comes off that way.  The real take away is that we both love Vandersteens and even if one of us didn't, that would be cool too.  I have plenty of friends who own Wilsons and I really don't.  I never have and I've never understood why folks are so crazy about them.  We always have great discussions about audio and sound. We respect each other and I understand where he's coming from and he gets where I come from.  Spirited debates and they are fun, but we will never agree as we listen differently.  As I've said, if we were at Johnny's or a bar over a beer and having this conversation, it wouldn't play out the way it has in this thread.  I also don't think you'd dislike me after it either, but if you did, that would be fine too.  It's all good that we love our systems and you can ask Johnny who knows me very well as to others on the board, I'm not an elitist by any means and I'm also not a jerk....well most of the time. :)

It's also good to see folks using the Vandersteen woofers with the Vandy speakers.  They are designed to work together.  Personally, I'd get the Treo or Treo CT's and use the woofers you have.  You will move a lot of air and have better sound.  The CT's are the way to go if you can afford them.  They would sound better than the original 5's.  Keep us posted.

Wlutke, if you can find a pair of used Quatro's I think you'd be in heaven for your Rock.  Even the other ones move a ton of air.  I personally only like the look of the wood versions, but I've heard the sock Quatro's set up with highest of end CJ with all the tweeks and top cabling and was blown away.  I've also heard them with NAD separates and an Ayre Codex DAC with basic Audioquest cable and it sounded incredible.  

To me, that's hard for most speakers to pull off.  You made a salient point to me on your moving air issue.  I'm totally on board after rereading your posts etc... I never thought we were that far off and I think I'm much closer to what you have posted about the movement of air deep down.  Some, like you, really need that in order to get 'moved' (pun intended).  I'm not quite like that as I need my music to give me everything else.  Hey, the Treo's go very low and move a bit of air when set up properly.  They are very satisfying to many and that's why the Quatro is out or those top subs he sells.  I want the Quatro for myself due to the tunable bass, but deep down (no pun), I want more air movement on the bass, but I hate most subs as I need tuneful bass that is articulate and homogenous with the main speakers.  I hear coherency in speakers more so than many do and that's what drives me nuts about so many manufacture's who make and market high end speakers.  So many are not coherent. Richard nails it and always has.  My Proacs were the same way years ago.  The newest Paradigm Ref speakers I got to hear last month on pre release were also pretty amazing, but they cost 7 or 8k more than the 5CT's and are not nearly as good.  

Folks can set their price range and figure out what's most important to them and see if they can fit it in.  I still feel that out of all the Vandersteen speakers ever made, that the Quatro is THE sweet spot in the line for price/performance.  JMHO

Congrats Wulke, but we all hear differently.  I auditioned the Zen's and found they lacked coherency for ME.  I also know of a few guys who didn't like the Zen's nearly as much as the Steen's.  The fact that you love them is awesome.  Neither of us is right or wrong and that's the beauty of audio. We all get what we love. I trust my ears and you trust your's.  That makes it all good.  

To make statements like 'steamroll' and 'destroy' just makes no sense to me when comparing speakers.  I guess these words also mean different things to each of us.  Enjoy your Zen's as I love my Quatro's and Bob loves my former Treo's.  I think he chose the Treo's over the Zen's too, but I can't remember fully. I know it was someone I was talking to when selling the Treo's to upgrade to Quatro's.  Oh well....it's all good in audio

You have already made it clear that you will give up resolution vs air moved in the room.  That's cool and I know many who do this and most don't even notice it when listening to mostly rock.

I realize the Treo is not for you.  Not enough air moved.  As for reviews, they are nice, but again, I'll trust my own ears.  

All I said was that your statements of 'do not compare' and the rest just lose you any credibility in your response.  None of us can make statements like that as it's audio and personal.  When I said the Zen's weren't coherent, I said this:   I auditioned the Zen's and found they lacked coherency for ME.  Did you notice I said for ME.

As for the Quatro's being a semi active speaker, I love it. Nothing beats being able to tune the bass to the room and placing the speaker in the best place to do all the great things it does like disappear and play music in a point source sort of way.  I don't worry about the crossover part either as mine is built directly into my integrated amp.  Easy for some companies to do, like Ayre.  Plenty of great choices depending on what you like to listen to.   

Devoted to great products.  I'm anything but the only one wlutke.  

You are so silly with saying making blanket statements and such strong ones.  That's just your opinion and you really shouldn't be calling posters delusional.  That's just wrong and rude.  I haven't called you any names at all.  Just saying that your statements IRT any audio is just not correct.  I'm honestly happy when I hear folks loving their gear.  That's awesome and for that I'm happy for you.  

You have already said that you listen to mostly rock and that you have to have a speaker that will move a ton of air.  That says all I need to know about where you are coming from, so I'm glad that you got a speaker that moves a ton of air in your room.  

I don't understand your last sentence though.  If you are telling me to enjoy my precious Quatro's, I surely am.  Did for hours this afternoon with the dogs.  Hard for me to get away from the system as it's breaking in so nicely.  Thanks guy.

Sincerely glad it's working for you.

That's all I have ever wanted wlutke.  As I've said, it's audio and it's all fun.  Thanks.

and the wheel turns........lmao.........

I was never a 'critical' listener like so many are.  In audio, there are three camps for the most part:

1. audiophile who's into the gear first and foremost.  

2. Those who are into the music and want it to sound as good as it can in their room.  If it's not the MOST revealing, it's fine as long as they get the emotion out of it.  The music counts more than the products producing it.

3. Audiophile/music guy who loves both.  

I realize that nearly 100% of the folks who will post on boards will say they are in the third camp, but we all aren't.  I meet so many folks at shops and in the hobby as many of you do.  I think that the majority of guys are gear heads.  Into the gear more than the music.  Yes, we all love the music, but so many folks don't care about music as much as the gear producing it.  I've had this conversation with so many folks within the industry and it dates back to when I got involved in the early early 70's (69 actually).  

I fully admit to being into the gear more than the music.  I love auditioning gear and talking gear with folks.  Since day one I was always the go to guy IRT audio.  I started helping friends, family and eventually strangers.  It's always been a fun hobby for me to get to know people and help them with systems.  I am a former drummer (MS completely took that part away 11 years ago) and love my rock. I also, because of audio, love all music now. I loved jazz too, even as a kid, but once I started buying the 180 gram pressings or any type of music, I loved it, but I get just as excited bout a new speaker or amp or DAC or cord or something that brings me closer to what I perceive as 'being in the hall, but not on stage with the performer".

This thread is the perfect place to bring this out as it celebrates everyone's tastes and reasons for it.  It's all personal. Some actually love a piece due to it's physical size and or looks.  Some like a speaker and system because it moves a ton of air in their room and that's how they listen.  In the end, some care about a soundstage and others don't. Some want timber over anything else. I personally can't listen to a system that hot on top.  Some of you don't care about hot on top as long as it sounds like you have gobs of bass or the most neutral vocal or ..............

There are some really great speakers mentioned in this thread along and it was a Vandersteen thread to start with.  We all have our likes and dislikes and in the end all that really does matter is that we love what we have and love the pursuit of what we want to have.  Happy listening.

Ekimg, go talk to Bruce the owner. I used to buy from him in the 80's when I was in the Navy.  Just sold my Stax Lambda's he sold me, lol.  Even had the original box and receipt, lol.  He's a master at room set up also.  Yes, bring in the amp as tubes can push a lot of current at times and that's the important thing along with your room size and listening habits.  

The Treo CT's are the way to go IF you can afford them.  They are a great value purchase in high end audio and then you can add two Vandersteen subs later on and you have about 90% of the Quatro's, plus you can place the subs in a different spot if needed and dial them in.  I know a few who have done this as their upgrade path and been happy overall.  Also, keep in mind you can upgrade and have them painted if you want. It's an uncharge, but they will do any color you want, lol.  They newest 3 signatures are really great if you love rock as they can move a lot of air.  You will listen and hear for yourself.  Trust your own ears and not what many of us tell you on the boards and have fun.  

Jeff, I think that many feel the Treo is thin, because it won't move as much air as a 3 or some other speakers.  What it is, is the entry into a higher resolution speaker.  I personally had it move plenty of air in my room and it never sounded thin. I also use an Ayre AX-5/20 and a QX5/20 with a TOP server (best I've heard), lol.  I got plenty of deep bass and it was tuneful.  Even on electronic music it was plenty deep in my room in my system.  I do understand that some feel that they want more air moved, so subs is a great deal as Treo is a full range speaker and the subs work great.

Tom, that's kind of funny.   I personally love listening to someone's highest end achievement and then listening to the rest of the line in lowering order.  Helps me figure out how much trickle down is going on.  I find on so many speaker lines, that I may like or love one of them and not the others.  Had that conversation with someone yesterday as his are the only speaker in the line he has that I like.  He agreed, lol.

Also agree on short term/long term listening.  Great detail in never etched., lol.

congrats on the Treo's.  The Quickies are really nice amps, but which Ayre amp are you looking at?  The new Belles Amps told you about will drive the heck out of them and sound great for the price. Give Johnny a call and ask him his thoughts. He sells Ayre, Quicksilver, Belles and a bunch of others.