i think i'm in a "final" tweak stage. i left the speakers 9ft apart, i remeasured my equilateral triangle and found i was sitting back too far from the tip of the triangle by about 12ish". so i fixed that. before fixing that, ears were only 32ish" from the back wall, now ears are 43ish" from back wall. my tilt is still at 3", which i will change again tomorrow to 3.5" and even try 3.75" and 4" (if i can get that).
as it stands now though, i am closer to that "texture" i described earlier, quite a bit closer. the sound is still smooth. the vocals (N.J.) "bloom" a bit but, before it was a little over powering in the "bloom", now it is not.
one thing RV said to me in an email was to watch out for room enhancing the bass/midbass freq. and that they certainly can account for the lack of detail i had early on.
oh, i repositioned the speakers according to the 5th rule also, so they are 36" out from the wall behind them. so with that plus me moving my head further into the room (even though it's 12" or so), i've put myself into a great spot. i think i'm definitely getting that magic or as close as i've been for the 1 year they've been in this room. like i said, just adding a little more tilt will be my final tweak i think then. not going to worry about raising them.
the sound is solid, i think there's some bass notes that are heavy, but upper bass and vocal ranges and highs are more important to me. the sound is open, there is air, more detail than before, the center image is still rock solid despite being so far apart, and it's all still smooth. oh, i have about 1/2" of toe-in. loving them again :)
next up is new cables from dac to integrated amp. you guys might think me odd, but i'm still using the dac magic+ with a pc as the source, it's good enough for now, and i also have a krell s300i. speaker wires are kimber kable 12tc and i'm looking at hero balanced next. |
thanks for more responses!
1. my 2 seat couch is leather and has a headrest, it reclines a bit, but not enough to be inches lower ear height. i throw a couple of bath towels or blanket over it so the head rest is as dead and low as possible, my ears are definitely clear of it.
2. i'll have to play with width between the speakers, i got them out at 9' because to me, it seems like everything gets bigger.
3. i've got an awkward room, i won't get into that except to say that i'm room depth / 7 (or 3ft) from back wall and seating position is 3ft from wall behind me. so i'll play around with all that too.
4. another thought i had was perhaps blocks to raise them up 6" more over the standard stands they came with. or some other method of raising them.
thanks for everyone's input. good to be amoung like-minded people. sheesh some of these main stream forums, people just have different goals for their music enjoyment :) |
I forgot to mention, that if the speakers are new, then you probably need to let them break in, and the contour controls should be set to flat. |
I based my set-up on Charles Hansen's recommendation for the 3A Sigs: http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=speakers&n=136275&highlight=88&search_url=
I think I'm within an inch or two of his measurements and using the same amount of tilt. |
Hey Steve
Did you ever do the laser tilt?
Most floors are never level.
After you have read the Vandersteen manual and are in the zone,
Use a bubble level confirm the speakers are level side to side,take a laser pen aim it on the wall behind listening chair area. Get a black sharpie pen with a post it note, draw a circle on the target O where the laser lands post it note stuck to wall.
Next do the same for the other speaker and make sure both speakers have the same bulls eye tilt landing on the O bulls eye?
Sit and listen,then slouch down in your chair,then listen sitting on a pillow.
One of the 3 positions will have magic.
Then adjust the final tilt to where your normal seating position is and make sure you confirm both speakers are in the new final bulls-eye.
Please let us know when you find it.
Cheers JohnnyR
|
now, a little more info, my ear height is 42-43". which seems high! and i know again from the manual that non titled speakers are time aligned to 33". i'm a taller person so my only other choice is to get a lower seat which is most likely not going to happen. I can empathize with you on this - i had the same issue when i was trying to setup my time-coherent Green Mtn Audio speakers. For that speaker i had to raise the speaker 1.5" & lower my seat so that my ears were ~38" off the floor such that my ear was about 1" lower than the tweeter. This was the guideline given by the manuf in the "setup" portion of the speaker manual. Like you I'm a taller person. If you want to reap the benefits of the time-coherency that the Vandys tout then you have no choice. If you can or won't then sell the speaker - you're wasting your time w/ a Vandy as you'll never get to hear what the speaker intended. if you keep it, don't complain! ;-) musically speaking - norah jones nightingale song, sounded so different when i sat on the floor in front of my couch, 2-2.5ft closer (T distance) and ear's 32" off the floor. how did it sound different? it seemed like there was more airy sound with the opening guitar and first few words of voal. mix in with that some "grain" or "texture" or maybe "openess" to the sound. - like a french silk pie made with granular sugar. here it seems you got the direct sound from the midrange & mid-bass from the mid-range which is where the starting vocals + guitar frequencies were. No wall reflections. A limited freq range but exactly what the start of that song had to offer & the midrange was the correct driver put to use. whereas up back in my couch with correct time alignment, things seemed smoother and laid back and not as defined, like a french silk pie made with powdered sugar. yeah, the speaker was correctly time-aligned due to its sloped baffle but correct time alignment does NOT mean correct time-coherency. Time-coherent speakers are naturally time-aligned but time-aligned speakers are not necessarily time-coherent (99% of the time they are not). So, yeah, the drivers are time-aligned when you are sitting in your couch but the freq are not integrating correctly at your ear 'cuz your ear height is wrong. At 42-43" ear height, you are getting all tweeter. Plus, you could be above the tweeter height & now you are getting into the vertical dispersion characteristics of the speaker, which on almost all cone driver speakers is pretty bad i.e. sonics drop off rapidly & in an ungraceful manner when your ear is above the tweeter height. does that make sense? oh, and even though i was a lot closer to the speakers than they were wide apart, the image was still smack dab in the middle, like a razor :) yup, didn't think this would be an issue for you.... |
Could be the headrest on your chair that is changing the sound also. I've noticed a difference in sound based on reflections off the headrest; thats why I got a saw and cut mine off (headrest, not head).
Vandersteen's are very picky about proper placement. When I had mine I found the set up guide on line and followed that. It was some sort of mathematical equation (maybe someone can chime in here...). It was pretty specific on the distance from the rear wall, side walls and listening chair. Vandersteens bass response is also effected by the toe, as toe changes the angle at which the bass reflects of the rear wall. Also, they sound best bi wired. I noticed that they sounded better,in my case, by using a cheaper bi wire than a more expensive, better, single run. |
thanks both. i think you're both kind of right in that sometimes it is best to try one approach T setup vs equilateral. oh, and toe in definitely changes things depending on a lot on which speaker it is.
so, like i said i started to agonize over whether the instructions meant the T distance, point mid-way between speakers, vs the equilateral.
now, a little more info, my ear height is 42-43". which seems high! and i know again from the manual that non titled speakers are time aligned to 33". i'm a taller person so my only other choice is to get a lower seat which is most likely not going to happen.
"T" distance for me is that 7.8ft and equi distance is 8. well, 7.8ft isn't even on the chart for tilt, it'd be like just over 4" of tilt. whereas 9ft is 3ish or 3.5" of tilt.
and, yes, i'm probably being way to rigid when it comes to this tilt thing, i was trying to find a new starting point.
musically speaking - norah jones nightingale song, sounded so different when i sat on the floor in front of my couch, 2-2.5ft closer (T distance) and ear's 32" off the floor. how did it sound different? it seemed like there was more airy sound with the opening guitar and first few words of voal. mix in with that some "grain" or "texture" or maybe "openess" to the sound. - like a french silk pie made with granular sugar.
whereas up back in my couch with correct time alignment, things seemed smoother and laid back and not as defined, like a french silk pie made with powdered sugar.
so i started questioning - i thought if the tweeter sound got to your ears first it would sound like the "grain" and here i was sitting on the floor, with the midrange sound getting to me first (cuz i didn't change the tilt). to me, standing up always made speakers sound more grain/airy or just plain bright.
does that make sense? oh, and even though i was a lot closer to the speakers than they were wide apart, the image was still smack dab in the middle, like a razor :)
thanks. |
G19276, i disagree that an equilateral triangle is the best place to start.
Start with an equal-legged T i.e. distance between speakers = distance from mid-point between speakers to your listening chair. This will create an isosceles triangle & will provide better sonics from my experience.
I also disagree that 9' apart is too much - with your Vandersteens 9' should be fine. When I had my B&Ws I had them 10' apart & there was no sonic hole in the middle.
Since Vandys are (also) time-coherent speakers, it would be best, again from my experience, to ensure that your ear is about 1" lower than the tweeter hight. Tilt the speaker or lower/raise your chair as needed to accomplish this.
Also adjust toe-in as needed - I usually had the speakers fire over my shoulders (so that they cross behind me).
This has worked really well for me. FWIW. |
You don't do it like that. Place your speakers and your listening chair where you need them to be in your room, and then sit in the chair and run a tape measure to get the distance between your head to the center of your speakers. It's not necessary to form an equilateral triangle. That's the reason for setting the back tilt in the first place.It will vary depending on how far you sit from the speaker. Also, 9 feet apart is probably a bit too far. Start off with the speakers 6 feet apart, from inside edge to inside edge. Move them further apart a little at a time and stop where they sound best. I think I have mine at 7 feet. With good electronics, your speakers can image beyond the outside edge of your speakers.
It takes a little while to set them up the first time. After that its easy. |
