VAC Ren II, VAC Phi, or ARC Ref 3?


Finally, the two cold solder joints in one of my Rowland 7M amplifiers have been fixed. Just a simple 2 minutes soldering job at home, thanks to a kind live phone consult by Jeff himself. Now the system is back purring like a kitten.
Great say you, but. . . the problem is that now I have fallen totally prey to Upgraditis Furiosa, the most pernicious and 'wife threatening' form of Audiophilia Nervosa.
I listen mostly to classical--lots of chamber, vocal, Early Music, Baroque, Romantic, some large orchestra, lots of cello and other strings--on a system that I have lovingly put together over the last 20 years: EAD T1000, AT&T glass C-core glass wire, EAD D7000 Mk. 3, AudioQuest Quartz RCA, Audio Research LS2B, Gutwire XLR, Jeff Rowland 7M monoblocks, Cardas Golden Ref PCs on 7M, Cardas Golden Ref speakerwires, MagnePan 3A speakers.
The sound is sweet, lush, with a large if slightly unfocused soundstage, sometimes slightly veiled, somewhat soft at the bottom, can sound glorious in the midrange, good if not spectacular at the top. Much better at small ensembles than at full orchestra, where the sound stage can collapse and full strings and brass often display signs of brittleness and two-dimensionality. But, so much for self-criticism. Now what to do?
I intend to migrate towards a fully balanced system, with redbook and SACD capability and a tube linestage. I will start upgrading at the source and linestage points. The source will be an Esoteric X-01 or an upcoming APL NWO-1. But in this thread I'd like to discuss options for a new linestage. My requirements are an open and detailed, sweet sound, accurate with minimal coloration, with very good but not necessarily overwhelming macro-dynamics, an excellent three-dimensional and accurate soundstage, superior microdynamics and subtle nuance. The linestage must sound great out of the box--after breakin of course: not only after going through many cycles of NOS tubes musical chairs. All of this from a company with a stellar track record and reputation in quality, dependability and pre/post sale support. I listened to the VTL 7.5 and found it to be too soft. The BAT VK51SE sounded too dark. Then I listened at length to the VAC Ren II, which seems to embody all of my requirements. I have not heard the VAC Phi as yet, but it is in the running by inference. Nor I have listened to the ARC Ref 3, although I intend to: Ref 3 is in the running by reputation.
Suggestions? Opinions? It's your turn guys and girls!
guidocorona

Showing 12 responses by jafox

Guidocorona: I can certainly relate to the issue of you wanting reliability but this comes with a lot of product lines these days so I would not worry too much here. You have listed a number of very highly rated models. I have not heard any of them but I have got to believe they are all magnitudes beyond the LS2 in pure musicality.

Rather than focus so much on what is too dark, too soft, etc., focus on the musicality. I am not going to comment on the LS2 as I have bashed this enough here already. But simply put, you have lived a long time with a product that has a very subtractive nature in many ways. Give some of these products more time. Maybe they are too soft or dark only because the LS2 is overly bright and fatiguing relative to many other pieces? It is almost like you need to "recalibrate" your ears and take notice of the multitude of refinements of these other products and not pay so much attention to simply the tonality.

There are layers and layers of harmonic overtones, decays, portrayal of space, etc., etc., that you have simply been missing all these years. The LS5, BAT 31SE and now Callisto have done this like few other products I have heard. I have to believe the 51SE, VAC and VTL have similar qualities.

As I have changed to the BAT and then Aesthetix products, I find it impossible to return to ARC products because for me now, they are simply too fatiguing. There's just too much of a "in your face" presentation with these products. And this is coming from an owner of many ARC products over the course of 15 years. Maybe the Ref3 is a different animal.

One very important note here. When you bring home a product like the ones you mentioned, you MUST also borrow a top-notch XLR cable from this to the amps. This is THE most critical cable in a system with such a line stage. I have found it to either make or break the magical qualities in the music that I have worked so hard to achieve myself.

John
Wow, you have some serious work ahead of you. With the requirement of a truly balanced design and your focus on 3-dimensional qualities, extended and open top end, the field of products is truly small. I would like so much to hear the VAC as I suspect it is about the only thing to give the Callisto a run for the show without going to the next insane (Boulder) price point.

Please don't discount the Aesthetix Callisto because of your concern of the effort needed to get NOS tubes to sound its best. Even with stock Sovtek tubes, it still mightily outperformed the Calypso with premium tubes and the BAT by an equal margin. I followed Albert Porter's postings here on what tubes worked and my experiences when I tried the same were right on with his. His efforts and willingness to share saved me a ton of time and no doubt money as well. In a week's time you could locate all the tubes to replace the stock tubes and then not think about it.

JD (Jadem6 who owns the Calypso) and I both feel that the magic with the Callisto has got to be much to do with it's separate tube power supply. And we were both so focused on this that it took us a awhile to notice how superbly the Callisto renders and controls the bass that is so untypical of a tube preamp. The two chassis implementation can be a hassle, but then the VAC Renaissance is as well. The Calypso and thus the Janus would clearly not meet your needs here.

It will be interesting to hear the reports on your listening sessions and ultimately your feelings on the Ref3 as well.

John
Good to know that you have decided to broaden your product auditioning. Will you have room for a second power supply in the future? 8-)
Oh oh Guido, you're really putting me on the spot with my love connection to the Callisto. I was just teasing you about the 2nd P.S. I use one and this works beautifully. And no, you can not stack any of these pieces because of the heat they generate.

Before I consider a 2nd P.S. for either the Callisto or the Io, I am awaiting the arrival of Michael Elliot's Aria WV preamp (phono stage included). How this all turns out will determine where I go with the Aesthetix pieces. And before I could relax entirely and be content with either for the long haul, I would be going nuts to hear the top VAC. I would love to scale down from 4 chassis to the two of the Aria or Phi.

There has been much praise of the VAC here that it is a must that you find a way to hear this in your system. If only we were close by we could have some fun trying out all sorts of combinations with the VAC and Aesthetix and the Ref3.

John
As for "nominal" ARC upgrade costs, for the most part, these have been much more expensive than I would classify as nominal. It almost always makes more sense to sell your older ARC unit and buy the later version on the used market. ARC does have excellent customer service though and this is important. But living 3 minutes from the ARC facility does not sway me to let go of the Callisto even if it does look like it would be more at home as part of a nuclear power plant control console rather than in a home audio system rack!

Guidocorona - If you had already purchased the Callisto, you would be so busy enjoying your music that we would not have heard from your for weeks. 8-)

John
Congratulations on making this key decision. Wow, what a huge improvement over the LS2. You should be a happy camper for quite a long time now.
My good friend Guidocorona, it is great to hear that you finally did this. Right on - what a great holiday gift to yourself. It seems like you have been chasing the holy grail of line stages for months and months. Let's hope that ARC does not soon release a major revamped Mk II or worse ..... gulp, send it to the ARC mausoleum with the intro of the next Ref model. Hopefully you can tune that out and enjoy your new purchase for many years to come. Happy Holidays to you.
John
Hey guys, don't bet on a Ref4 due to the marketing to cater to the superstitions of the number 4 overseas. It will probably get bumped to a 5. After all, have you ever seen an LS4, PH4 or DAC4?
I applaud Jonathan Valin for taking a systems approach to listening and comparing with other "systems" but the end result is just that: one system vs. the other. Unfortunately, this makes it tough if not impossible to quantify how one line stage sounds vs. the other (and the same for the amps) as each model of the respective line may "compliment" its sibbling .... or are they each "neutral". Of course mixing and matching could result in the worst of both worlds. But a lot of people like the tube preamp and ss amp and it would have been nice to read about this pairing.

For someone who already has a great match of their amplifier to their speakers, and is seeking information as to the specifics of line stages for auditioning, this review brings on little value. Hopefully Mr. Valin, one of my favorite audio reviewers by the way, will further analyze and report on these products in a standalone manner as well.

As for the issue of comparing apples and oranges, even if the ARC 610 amps were used in comparison, the price difference would still be huge. And with the design and implementations so massively different here, it still comes down to the strengths of ss (ultimate resolution/detail and frequency extreme coverage) and tubes (spatial/ambience) which are very clear from Mr. Valin's conclusions. In the big picture, no surprises here about which product line excells in each of the key sonic attributes. So this too comes down to apples/oranges.

John
Hmmm, what happened to a week's worth of posts in this thread? Looks like some lawyers took on a little cleansing action. Did someone say a boo boo? Were the details of the Ref3's design becoming a bit too public? Oh well. Like Roger Waters says, "I think I'll wait for the Ref50". Wait a minute I think that is, F50.

How you doing Guido, super excited to take delivery of your new line stage? I think everyone here is equally excitd for you.

John