There is likely nothing wrong at all with present phono stage but you know how it is.
Present analog front end consists of.
Nottingham Analog Spacedeck with Spacearm. Shelter 501 mk3 cartridge with maybe 250 hours on it, regularly treated with Lyra. Dynavector P75 mk3 phono stage. Feeds into Lyngdorf 2170 via Nordost Red Dawn RCA cables.
My thoughts were that possibly the Dynavector is the weakest link and would pay most dividend on an upgrade but.....
What do I perceive I am lacking right now? Really hard to say as this is highest quality analog front end ever owned. Possibly lacking a little in sheer scale and dynamics? Bass is very very good, instruments are well separated and defined. Just as an overall presentation I feel it lacks that final wow factor as a whole. Not sure if that makes any sense? Please comment honestly especially if you feel it is another area that may reap larger benefits. Or if should just leave well alone....lol.
Oh btw I am fairly sure it is setup correctly in regards to vta etc, at least to the best of my abilities right now. And yes setting it up correctly from initial purchase did make considerable gains in sq.
Yea that’s possible...lol Sorry for any confusion there but I did get very valuable information from Keith for sure.
Invictus.
My understanding from minds much more versed in the subject than myself is that a mismatch from a too low ratio will result in diminished Sonics, bass, dynamics etc. Obviously then not an upgrade at all! Better to buy correctly the first time if at all possible, hence my reasons for starting a thread to get as much information as possible.
On 04-02-18 you stated in your post...obviously confusing my previous posts referring to Kevin Carter of K & K Audio with Keith Herron. Just to set the record straight. I hope you're satisfied with your purchase.
My MC cart is .47mv so I use -3db for gain, 220 loading, and RIAA Enhanced curve.
Cartridge dependant, personal preference of course.
Have fun! Give it at least 20 hours of play, and I would leave it on throughout the weekend, before any critical listening. Mine hit it's peak at approx 30hrs, give or take.
Atmasphere (Ralph) has explained in some past threads that for a low output moving coil cartridge optimal loading is mainly dependent on the phono stage, and not on the cartridge. And in particular it is mainly dependent on effects on audible frequencies that may occur in the phono stage as a result of sensitivity it may have to RF frequencies. RF frequencies will be present at the input of the phono stage as a consequence of the high frequency resonance that results from the interaction of cartridge inductance and load capacitance.
So for example Keith Herron recommends that when an LOMC is used with the VTPH-2 users may often find that no loading whatsoever (meaning a nearly infinite number of ohms, in the case of the VTPH-2) is often optimal. And I and some others here have found that to be true with the combination of an Audio Technica ART9 and the VTPH-2.
So I would feel free to disregard the 100 ohm load recommendation the manufacturer provides for your cartridge.
Well first impressions.... What a piece of audio art! Superbly built and crafted. Very impressed. But what does it sound like? I set it up as per cart specs with loading of 100 and...well it sounded very bright tbh. Love the fact that to alter load and gain its just a couple of pushes of the front button,no tearing it open, instant comparison.
Best sound realised so far is 0db gain and loading of 470 which is quite a bit more than recommended but my ears like this the best! Of course it is brand new and may need tweaking after some serious hours on it.
Good to know. Approx 72% of the cost of the PH-10 seems a little steep for a power supply, but I'll most likely get it anyways. Ha.
I did replace the stock fuse and power cable on my PH-10, with Syner. Blue and AQ NRg 4. That was a pretty decent improvement, considering it sounded great out of the box.
Looking forward to your thoughts when your PH-10 arrives.
I've been emailing back and forth with Toska the past few months, checking in on the external PSU. Last they told me, it would be shipping at the end of this month, but weren't sure on the pricing yet.
So the dealer rushed it out, very nice of them and it should be here this morning ( out on fedex vehicle for delivery) yippee, I just LUV new toys to play with!
Also of interest is the fact that Gold Note are releasing a matching external PSU for this which may up the ante even further, reckon about another $1100 though.....
I will be looking forward to your impressions of the PH10. I have had this on my radar since purchasing my Scheu a month ago...I've got some older recording and European pressings that could benefit from some of the other EQ curves this unit can produce.
They only had silver left and as my Burson headphone amp is silver, they can sit next to each other on the shelf. Rest of gear is black but colour not a huge thing for me as long as it sounds good! Probably will not see it until next week now though.
My PH-10 had approx 10hrs of use when purchased, and it sounded great right off the bat. Once I hit the 30hr mark it really started to shine. No changes I could hear after that, now at approx 200hrs.
Quick break in time, if you believe in that sort of thing...
Al As always many thanks for your assistance and clarification. ATM, I am leaning towards the GoldNote as it should work very well into the single ended inputs on my Lyngdorf and I do like all the easily accessible features that do NOT include having to open it up and move jumpers around etc. With all changes being made right at the front panel it is very easy to change gain and loadings near instantly and compare sq before short term memory leaves you questioning if that last change really did make any difference after it takes you 20 minutes or so to complete said change with jumpers.
Now one thing I do not know is what occurs if that ratio is sky high, say 500 to 1 or so?
No problemo, Uberwaltz :-)
It would be extremely rare for a problem to result from having too high a ratio, and in fact if that were occur it would most likely be the result of a design flaw in one of the components.
The only situation I can recall ever being reported in which a problem occurred from having too high a ratio was the one Ralph (Atmasphere) described in his posts dated 8-3-2012 in this thread. And that situation resulted from an unusual combination of circumstances involving a preamp and a power amp, and a marginally stable power supply in the preamp.
Barring a design flaw in a component, I wouldn't worry even if the ratio was 10,000 to 1.
According to the Gold Note tech I spoke with via email, they designed it to accommodate just about any amp loading on the market. Now one thing I do not know is what occurs if that ratio is sky high, say 500 to 1 or so? Maybe someone smarter than myself will chime in and explain.
Thank you for the update. I did not even think/know to match impedance when I bought the GoldNote, but I'm glad to know now that technically it's a good match.
Explains a fair bit. Just had email reply direct from GoldNote. The actual impedance is just 50ohm, not 500ohm. They said the manual has error...lol. So the ph10 should work very well with my 2170 via either/ or xlr or single ended.
It had been on my "to do" list for a while but as it meant removing it from system, opening it up and moving jumpers around I just never got around to it. Until yesterday....
While trying to decide which way to go on the phono stage I decided to experiment with my present Dynavector P75. Thought I would give its PE setting a trial, (phono enhancer). As my cartridge is not really low mc at 0.4mv and a 14ohm resistance which puts it right in the middle of the PE settings I thought it was worth a try.
Well almost as good as a new phono stage as it has definitely ratcheted up the dynamics, certainly on piano and female vocals.
Good enough to tide me over until I decide which way to go.
Al It is possible then that the impedance of the Gold Note could be just 50 and not 500ohms. Either way it could work and as Robelvick has same setup and reports a good match .
Trying to get in home trial on either this or the Chinook.....
Isn’t the Gold Note output impedance very similar to the Herron’s?
First, as I mentioned earlier, while the manual for the Gold Note states 500 ohms, two other references provided at its website indicate 50 ohms.
But in any event, and assuming the Gold Note is purchased without the optional tube-based output stage, even if its nominal output impedance is 500 ohms it probably doesn’t vary greatly from that value over the frequency range, given that it is a solid state design. But like most tube-based phono stages and preamps the Herron almost certainly uses a coupling capacitor at its output, which most likely causes its output impedance to rise to considerably higher values at deep bass frequencies than the nominal value that is spec’d (which in turn is most likely based on a mid-range frequency such as 1 kHz).
I’ll say also that I’m not at all surprised at the sincerity and excellence of the response Keith provided. As I know many others here would agree, one couldn’t hope to find an audio designer/manufacturer more wonderful to deal with.
Yes it is However Al did think it might do ok into the balanced inputs on my amp and there was supporting evidence from an actual user ( robelvick) that this combo does indeed work very well.
Quite likely then I am going to give the Manley Chinook or the Gold Note a trial as I do not see myself changing the Lyngdorf out any time in the very near future. Will see if I can arrange an in home trial of either before spending money
Just going to copy and paste Keiths very informative email response to my question about the Herron phono stage. Obviously he is a true Gentleman as Slaw stated and would not see me disapointed in any way!
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the note. I like to see, as a general rule in high end
audio, an impedance ratio of at least 1 to 100 (output impedance
to input impedance) when using tubes or solid state as loading the
circuits down generally reduces the quality of the sound. I have
seen similar impedance ratio recommendations from Audio Research
and other high end audio companies.
Solid state circuits generally have much lower output impedances
than tube circuits. 10k Ohm input impedances are a standard
typically used in professional audio, but this does not work as
well for tube based high end audio equipment.
The two 12AX7, three 12AT7 version of our VTPH-2A has an output
impedance of 400 Ohms which performs best into a 40k Ohm or higher
line stage input. Some people are using them with line stage
inputs that are a little less than that with reasonable results,
especially if their cartridge has a lower output voltage. Your
integrated with a 10k or 5k single ended input would likely
restrict dynamics substantially, even with a very low output phono
cartridge. I can't recommend that combination. Audio is supposed
to be fun.
Another thing to watch for is that some line stages (particularly
digital ones) have a very low input voltage limitation which can
cause overload (clipping) with some analog sources. That can sound
nasty.
For the reasons above I design our line stages with a 100k Ohm
input impedance and a wide input voltage margin in order to get
the best sound quality from tube based sources such as phono
stages, tape machines, tuners, and DACs with tube output stages.
I wish everyone would do that.
Hooked up the OPPO via digital coax so can instantly compare the sq to the existing xlr connection. Have to say the digital is far superior in every aspect, and that is with a 15 year old Monster cable I had lying around. Opens up possibility of taking a phono input via xlr.
BTW..This class (no charge) benefits him in that it allows him a personal connection to get real time feedback from his customers..this in turn benefits us all
He has a dedicated site/thread on audio asylum if you are unaware........
@uberwaltz,
Kevin’s tt is a Nottingham. I never asked him which model... he has a 12" arm/Benz LP cart.
This should be of great interest to you?
I benefit none from this. I just have very strong feelings.
My kinda guy, slaw. Another like him is Roger Modjeski of Music Reference. He now teaches a class in Audio Engineering in Berkeley/Oakland, where he has moved his operation (from beautiful Santa Barbara). You can build your own tube power amp while learning. He is a staunch defender of the 6DJ8 tube (almost identical to the 6922, just a higher voltage rating I believe), which he feels in unfairly maligned.
Well, nothing says it but being able to evaluate the piece in one’s own system.
I can say that from the times I’ve spent talking/listening with Kevin. he’s the real deal. He’s a trained scientist who takes that approach to his designs. He does not like the smoozing most manufacturers do to have professional reviewers listen to his products. Additionally, he has a distaste for the markup on most high -end products. He prices his products accordingly. His Maxxed-Out Phono was compared to products costing twice as much. By his own admission, on his site, the Trio is very close to the Maxxed-Out.
One more thing... he sets aside Sundays for a building class for people who have purchased his (kits) to come over and build them. ( This is at his home.) Common' who else does this kind of one on one personal customer service? No One!
I also own a Herron VTPH-2a and am more than satisfied. But impedance matching is critical at every point in the chain. I'm using all Herron Audio equipment, so it doesn't make any difference for me.
My suggestion is to call Keith Herron and open a discussion. I have never known him to place sales above honest answers. If his equipment won't work with yours, he will say so. Better to tell it like it is than end up with a dissatisfied customer.
John (Jmcgrogan2), thanks very much for the nice words.
Regarding the Gold Note PH-10, as you mentioned it isn’t clear if the specified output impedance pertains to the balanced outputs or the unbalanced outputs or both. In addition, the website description and the brochure it links to state that the output impedance is 50 ohms, while the manual says 500 ohms. The manual also indicates that an optional tube-based output stage is available, as well as an optional external tube-based output stage. Perhaps the 500 ohm figure pertains to those options.
But even if the output impedance of the solid state output stage that is apparently standard is 500 ohms, chances are it does not have the substantial rise in output impedance (to perhaps several thousand ohms) that would result in the deep bass region from the coupling capacitor that is often used with tube-based output stages. Given that, the specified nominal impedance probably isn’t greatly different than the maximum output impedance within the audible frequency range, and therefore I suspect that a 10x ratio applied to that figure would provide results that are reasonably good if perhaps a bit marginal. Also, given the ambiguity in the specifications it seems quite possible that the balanced output impedance may be 1K, resulting in the same 10x ratio when connected to the 10K input impedance of the 2170’s balanced inputs. And of course Robelvick reported fine results with that configuration, although we don’t know for sure if the nominal output impedance involved is 50 ohms, 100 ohms, 500 ohms, or 1000 ohms.
The bottom line, IMO: The PH-10 in its standard configuration (i.e., without either of the tube-based output stage options) would most likely be a reasonable choice in terms of impedance compatibility, whether connected balanced or unbalanced.
Have you tried using the digital out on your CD player? I think you’d be pleasantly surprised with the SQ improvement through the Lyngdorf’s digital inputs.
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