There is likely nothing wrong at all with present phono stage but you know how it is.
Present analog front end consists of.
Nottingham Analog Spacedeck with Spacearm. Shelter 501 mk3 cartridge with maybe 250 hours on it, regularly treated with Lyra. Dynavector P75 mk3 phono stage. Feeds into Lyngdorf 2170 via Nordost Red Dawn RCA cables.
My thoughts were that possibly the Dynavector is the weakest link and would pay most dividend on an upgrade but.....
What do I perceive I am lacking right now? Really hard to say as this is highest quality analog front end ever owned. Possibly lacking a little in sheer scale and dynamics? Bass is very very good, instruments are well separated and defined. Just as an overall presentation I feel it lacks that final wow factor as a whole. Not sure if that makes any sense? Please comment honestly especially if you feel it is another area that may reap larger benefits. Or if should just leave well alone....lol.
Oh btw I am fairly sure it is setup correctly in regards to vta etc, at least to the best of my abilities right now. And yes setting it up correctly from initial purchase did make considerable gains in sq.
The ART is coming from Germany, it is in transit but that is all the tracking says.
Rookie mistake on the zyx yesterday. Set the alignment, set the vtf and dropped the needle to play as excited. Doh, did not set the vta! And the zyx is a lot shallower cart than the Shelter so needed a lot of change. Then it sounded much better, nowhere near as bright as previous and a lot more tonal midrange really noticeable on male vocals and acoustic guitar. Same settings on ph10 apart from curve to riaa now.
Well the ZYX RS30 showed up today so of course I had to fit it right away! First thoughts, thank heaven for the ph10! Needed to scroll through various setting to get the sound as I preferred it, not something easily done when you have to keep opening a box up and moving jumpers around!. So first impression of the cartridge. Quite a bit brighter and detailed than the Shelter. So far I like it with 0db gain( it is 0.24mv) and loading of 470 and the America Columbia curve.But this may change as it breaks in and I cycle through a few more albums.
Amgradmd Nice to hear from fellow ph10 owners. As far as the fuse I went with Sr blue because I had previously used SR black in a DAC with excellent results. And the sr blue thread has very positive reviews on this fuse. I can only concur and it is a superb improvement for just $150.
Uberwaltz - I also have the PH-10 and absolutely love it. I'm running mine with a Gold Note Mediterraneo with GN Donatello Gold, which is an amazing combo, BTW. I cannot get over how good this combination is.
Your replacing the fuse intrigues me as I found that replacing the fuse in my PS Audio Directstream DAC significantly improved SQ. I initially replaced with SR Red, which I really likes, and then the Audio Magic Beeswax SHD fuse, which was even better and more liquid in it's sound. Many guys on the PS Audio site swear by the AM Beeswax fuses, for what it's worth. What made you try the SR Blue? Have you tried other fuses at all? Thanks! Adam
Very cool. The Art 9 is on a lot of people's radar, mine included. Should mate well with my Technics from what I hear, and I know you'll keep us updated on how it works with the PH-10.
Sounds good Robert I am sure there are much better amps out than the 2170 but the wonders it revealed in my terrible acoustic room means it stays...for now...lol.
What I have done is buy two carts, ebay had 15% off today so used my account to buy one and the wifes to buy the second, $180 saved total.
ART-9 and ZYX RS30
Both coming from outside the usa so have a couple weeks to wait before I can so some serious comparao testing
Just wanted to give you a quick update: The Lyngdorf is gone, and now I'm using a MicroMega M100. No more A/D conversion for my analog device, which is of course the PH-10.
I had a minor WOW moment right off the bat playing vinyl. I always had concerns playing records through the 2170, even though this last time with the 2170 was very, very good. But...now without any digital in the path, and switching from Class D to A/B in the amp, I've hit the sweet spot with the PH-10. Everything sounds so alive and exciting.
I've tried to find the input specs for the M100's line/balanced inputs to see if they're a better match with the PH-10, but nothing yet..
I almost thought about selling the PH-10 too, because the M100 has it's own phono stage, but a quick A/B test, made the PH-10 the clear winner. This preamp still amazes me.
Robert I had a Clearaudio tt with a Clearaudio cart ( do not remember which the cart was about $550). I remember not being too impressed at the time. However a lot of changes in my system since then. I see you can get the Ortofon 2m Bronze for like $380 shipped on eBay, not a lot of cash for a trial for sure.
Have faith, its gets better and better with 50 plus hours on it. Also you may want to consider trying an aftermarket fuse and power cord, both made noticeable improvements to my ears. Good luck and enjoy
Received my Gold note PH10 this week and a bit hard and closed in sounding initially but now after 15 plus hours it's really opening up and singing. For $1300 it's well worth every cent IMO
About a week ago I installed the back-up to my back-up cart, an Ortofon 2M Bronze -- I fricken love it! I probably only have 50 hours tops on it, but the sound is so lush, detailed, & inviting! Dead quiet too. It’s staying on for the time being..
For reference, my main cart is a Sound Smith modded Ortofon Kontrapunkt B (Boron Cant, Ruby Fine Line) and the back-up is a Clearaudio Maestro V2. These are fantastic as well, but different sound signatures.
I’m always fidgeting with my system, but I love to have choices. When my mood changes, the cart changes.
Have you thought about trying a couple out, that are less expensive? You may be surprised how many great options there are without emptying your pocket. I really love Ortofon as you can tell, and I’ve had two Clearaudio MM, the other being a Virtuoso, very nice sound. I’ve had both Dynavector 10x5 and 20x2h. Equally impressive.
Robert I was truly so enthralled by the SQ last night I was flipping vinyl until 1.30am...lol.
Another nice aspect of the lyngdorf 2170 and the goldnote, nottingham combo is I can reduce my listening level for these very late night sessions and not really lose anything much at all in dynamics or details. Definitely not something that has always been the case with prior incarnations of gear in my setup.
May just put a new cartridge on hold for a while. Just added a SR Blue fuse to the Gold Note and I definitely can hear a sq improvement, very tight and more focused. Actually very very enjoyable so I am not in the mood to upset the apple cart right now. I know there are a lot of fuse haters and doubters out there but I am not one of them!
P.S: Although I doubt it would happen, it’s possible that running your Shelter cartridge with the PH-10’s gain set to 71 db might result in distortion on musical peaks, due to an overload condition in either its circuitry or in the circuitry in the 2170 that precedes its volume control mechanism. If that were to happen, though, the resulting distortion should be pretty obvious, and would be present even at relatively low settings of the volume control. As I said I doubt that would occur, but if it does you could perform the experiment just with the 65 and/or 68 db settings instead.
Thank you Al For my tastes in music I truly think the art9 would be a better fit regardless after reading that reply from AT.
However that is a very useful test to see if at any future stage I could contemplate a true lomc in my present system and will perform it to satisfy my curiosity and increase my depth of knowledge on what is and what is not possible for me.
By just about all accounts that I've seen the ART7, like the ART9, is an excellent cartridge. However, its very low output will definitely be a problem for many phono stages, in terms of noise. Specifically, its rated output of 0.12 mv is about 10.5 db less than the 0.4 mv rated output of your Shelter cartridge.
I don't know how the volume control on your 2170 is calibrated, but presuming it adjusts volume in discrete steps, and if you can determine how many db each step corresponds to (perhaps by contacting Lyngdorf) I would suggest the following experiment: Set the gain on the PH-10 to max (65 + 6 = 71 db). Listen to some music, preferably something that has wide dynamic range, and turn up the volume control to the loudest setting you would normally use. Then stop playing the record, increase that volume setting by about 11 db, and see if the hiss level becomes bothersome.
It might also be worthwhile to perform the same experiment at 65 and/or 68 db settings of the overall gain.
Dgarretson, I have not heard the ART7 so I cannot comment on its sound
per se. Its heartening to know that it can be amplified without SUT.
Here is an email that was sent to a friend of mine by Audio Technica:
Mr. Rodrigo Thomaz from Audio Technica send me follow reply to this question:
Hello,
If you prefer to listen to multiple orchestrate classical music, we recommend the Non-magnetic Core Moving Coil cartridge AT-ART7. It can reproduce more sensitive sound of each instrument.
However if you prefer more dynamic music like jazz/pop music, we recommend you use the Magnetic Core Moving Coil cartridge AT-ART9. It will deliver much more presence with rich low mid frequencies.
I also have an SME series 3 but that maybe too light?
@analogluvr, on paper a reasonable case could be made both for and against that combination, IMO, so it may very well be worth trying the ART9 in the SME III.
A case that could be made for it would be that if the ART9’s compliance at 10 Hz is in fact in the rough vicinity of 30 the 5 gram effective mass of the SME III (according to its listing at vinylengine.com), together with the 8.5 gram weight of the cartridge, would result in a resonant frequency of about 7.9 Hz. While an arm having higher effective mass would result in a resonant frequency somewhat lower than that, and therefore further from the 8 to 12 Hz region that is generally considered to be optimal.
A case that could be made against it would be that many people have reported great results with the ART9 when used in medium mass arms.
In any event, best of luck if you decide to purchase one.
Thanks Al. My go to arms are a 12 inch well tempered which has exceeded my expectations and an eminent technology ii. I suspected to have better luck with the well tempered. I also have an SME series 3 but that maybe too light?
Thanks Al for a very informative post as per usual So in my case I may be taking a bit of a chance, my Spacedeck has a stock Spacearm ( as far as I know at least), do not think it will be anything special. However at $860 new on eBay the ART9 is not what you would call high priced so it might be worth a try.
Like many others here I’ve been delighted with the ART9. Among its many excellent qualities I would say that the one which stands out the most is simply its neutrality, meaning that it doesn’t seem to overemphasize or underemphasize any part of the spectrum. Dynamics and resolution of detail are also excellent.
To provide context, for the better part of the previous 30+ years I was using various incarnations of the Grace F-9E and F-9E Ruby. Most recently an F-9 with Soundsmith’s $350 "Ruby Cantilever / Nude Contact Line Diamond" stylus/cantilever assembly. Which is a very nice cartridge, but I found it to be not quite as accurate or dynamic as the ART9.
My tonearm is a 1980’s Magnepan Unitrac I, which has a relatively low effective mass of 8 grams. The ART9 has a highish compliance, specified as 18 × 10-6 cm/dyne at 100Hz, which I suspect probably means something like 30 x 10-6 cm/dyne at the 10 Hz frequency that compliance specs provided by non-Japanese cartridge manufacturers are usually based on.
I see that the Lyra Helikon is spec’d at 12 x 10-6 cm/dyne at 100Hz, and has a weight that is very similar to the ART9. Given that as well as the fact that several members here have reported excellent results using the ART9 in medium mass arms I doubt that there would be any compatibility issues using the ART9 in an arm that is suitable for use with the Helikon.
I’m uncertain about compatibility in Uberwaltz’s case, though, as I’m not familiar with his arm and the compliance of his Shelter cartridge appears to be somewhat lower, at 9 x 10-6 cm/dyne, presumably at 100 Hz since it is made in Japan. Although it’s weight is again very similar to the weight of the ART9.
Al I've been contemplating getting the ART nine and I've been wondering what you think of it? I've been running a lyra helicon and I absolutely love it but I'm not sure how many hours it has on it. Sorry for the brief off-topic, sounds like the OP is really enjoying his phonostage so that's great!
At this stage I have zero complaints. I just love the total flexibility of being able to change settings like gain and loading etc right from front panel. This makes for easy instantaneous comparison and much nicer than opening up and moving jumpers etc. It is extremely well built, almost a work of art to boot. Nice touch is outputs on both xlr and RCA. Also two sets of inputs so you could set up for 2 different cartridge and only have to flip from input 1 to 2.
The Herron VTPH-2 certainly sounds like a great stage and along with Keith Herrons very honest upfront attitude even though it cost him a potential sale, if I ever changed my amp to something that had an impedance match I would consider the VTPH-2 very deeply. Thank you all!
@analogluvr, thank you kindly for the very nice words.
BTW, your comments about the Herron phono stage in past threads were prominent among those which led me to become yet another very happy owner of a VTPH-2 a couple of years ago. Thanks for that as well!
Very happy with the gold note so far, may have gone with one of the earlier suggestions and possibly have been dissapointed if not for Al and his impedance matching observations.
I agree Kevin and his products would be strong contenders in my mind. I personally purchased a heron phono stage years back and have never once again ever contemplated changing. Which is unusual for me. But if Al says there may be matching issues then that is a strong consideration as well as Al always gives the most honest helpful answers out of everybody on the gon. Keith Herron is also known for is honesty so you may do well to give him a call as he is very accessible.I have had an Allen Wright vacuum state product in the past, his full function preamplifier the svp2 and while it was very good it was not in the league of the Herron. Perhaps not a fair comparison as it was a full function preamplifier compared to a standalone phono stage but it is what it is
I see the OP has a Lyngdorf TDA 2170 - as I understand it that is a true digital amplifier. Are you running it with room correction? I assume it has the familiar house sound of the TACT - combined with Nordost cables, and the Dynavector phono stage - I can imagine that the sound is quite cool and analytical. I was very impressed with the TACT myself - but it is at its best with digital. I, personally, have always struggled with the idea of analogue via digital - it may defeat the purpose, and may explain why you lack the desired 'magic'. That may well be the route cause of your problem.
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