TW-Acustic Arm

Hi Downunder,
it sure was obvious - wasn't it?
How could I missed that one - it was handed on a plate.
But seriously - I am quite happy that finally he and me came to some terms and share at least a small common ground and point of view.

The Munich HE show report.... ?
Most feedback from Munich HIgh-End show made favorite mention of the Korean Audiophile displaying - and playing - 1940ies small Western Electric theatre short horns with Allnic amplification (as far as I remember it was Allnic ...).
Since large picture horn systems are terra incognita for most German audiophiles not into vintage theatre sound, this did not fail to make a huge impression on a large portion of the visitors.
A very different )if vintage...) sound which stand out and away from the "crowd" for various reason.
Besides that - hardly anything new to mention. Manuel Huber showed off his Thales and Simplicity tonearms at Brinkmann's and TW of TW brought the white (?) labeled black bird to Munich. They all had their fans and admirers dropping in and out, - well, business as usual.
On the whole scale there was less novelties compared to last year and the side show at the Meridien Hotel in the city centre was a logistic declaration of bankrupt (it wasn't great last year at Fleming's either, but pure gold compared to 2010...).
Soundwise nothing really deserved to be mentioned - blame it to show room conditions, lack of interest, lack of abilities - pick either and you can not go wrong.
In most cases a mixture of all.
So - all in all, kind of disappointing.
With European regulations seriously nipping (snapping.... with brute jaws!) at High-end's heels I really wonder what we will see in 2011.
But the weather was fine the last 2 days .....

Dert

Should have known you would have jumped on that staement from Dgad :-)

How was the Munich Show? anything that jumped out sound quality wise?

Dgad, you said "But... there have been quite a few products promoted here that have been "the flavor of the month" type."
For once in a while we totally agree.

Read a new Titan i is coming out somewhere over here. It makes sense so I assume it is true. As for not liking a cartridge or not, I have learned that often some cartridges do need significant break in and that can vary sample to sample. IME some even sound bad while others sound amazing. This isn't specific to a single brand but can be with almost any. I remember my Universe needed completely different settings than the one I tried as a loner which was simply stunning on first listen. It needed 100s of hours to settle in but then was amazing. Shane, I trust your ears especially as they line up with several other respected members here. But... there have been quite a few products promoted here that have been "the flavor of the month" type.

Thomas hated the sound of the A90 at RMAF

Wow, interesting to say the least. If it wasn't burn in, I wonder what other factors may have come into the equation. I'd be interested to hear whether and how Mr. Woschnick liked the combination in Munich.

I would disagree Darren.

My A90 sounded wonderful straight from the box and only got better.

is there a new Titan i?. is it called the i2?

50 hours is quite a bit of LP time.
Any way to make it faster ?
Does playing it with cardas Lp help ?

Shane,

The big deal is that it needed tremendous amount of break in. I was told that the change from before & after break in is dramatic and takes a good 50 plus hours. I have personally had cartridges sound terrible and great depending on when I set it up. With a few arms it allows me to futz if I don't like it. So setup can always be an issue. It was described to me as holographic and dynamic.

Nice to hear it mates well w. the TW Phono. Tempting but I am waiting to hear about the new Titan i.

That is interesting considering Thomas hated the sound of the A90 at RMAF.

maybe a setup issue back then or the greatness of the TW arm ?

Agree wholeheartedly with Thuchan, I thought it worked wonderfully with the Ortofon A90 and TWA's Raven phono stage

could listen to the arm at the Munich High End yesterday for the first time. It sounds very good indeed!

is the tw arm design more in close resemblance to a Graham Phantom where it is unipivot ? or is it closer to design like a gimballed tonearm in the likes of Triplanar ?

Further, reading online the instruction manuals says that this arm can work with carts between 5 g to 20 grams. Effective mass is 14 g.
Does this mean that any cart that falls into that weight limit of 5g to 20g would automatically work ?
What about the compliance issues ?
Thanks for the inputs.

those using this arm, what cartridges works well ? or does not work with it ?

I ran out of time, so I haven't read all the posts. While it's interesting to read about some ego stuff and discloser issues, since we have some very expert people posting on this discussion, I was wondering if maybe the experts could give us a little insider tips about turntables and tonearms. For instance, if it's a gimballed arm, what are the characteristics of that versus a uni-pivot? That was just an example, but any input(without giving away any secrets)would be appreciated.

Dertoarm,
can I ask respectfully whether you have tried the TW tonearm and if yes with what catridge and set up and give us your feedback in comparison to your preferred tonearm . Thanks in advance

I have the killer - and it is a tonearm.....

To paraphrase heraclitus--the way up and the way down are one and the same. Or as eliot says, in my end is my beginning. Thus, the death of any one component is merely the birth of another. My problem with the graham was its inability to transmit the tragic urgency of Zoot Horn Rollo's maniacal glass finger guitar the way the tw arm does. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!!!

wow - congratulations. you got the black magic. Wonderful! reading your lines I was anxious something else in your system was killed, glad to hear you survived the attack of the black magic. Enjoy

It "killed" any desire to leave my listening room or listen to anything other than the new remastered edition of lou reed's metal machine music. The alchemy created by that arm and lou's greatest work have trapped me in an aural cocoon from which i can neither escape nor summon the desire for escape. Beware!!!--it will be the end of all human
contact for those who dare to give that evil platter a spin under that magical arm. And with that--i sign off for good from this furious debate--remorseful i ever put forth my meager two cents. Still, the tw is one " killer" of an arm !!! And the graham doesn't suck either. The good thing is with this level of interest in something as esoteric to the rest of the world as a tonearm--our beloved vinyl doesn't show any hints of dying off anytime soon. Long live the magic black platter!!!

Dear Rdcline,

it killed what?

i have the arm and it is killer.

Dear Dertonearm, you have some sandals left for me...?

Dear Nandric, pls. forgive me. It might look sarcastic but when you are listening to some of the very important people on this planet you will hear discussions about all those toys we all would never flog a dead horse.

I like your philosohical view - this helps a lot, you don´t need the toys obviously, don´t you?

Dear Thuchan, sorry to burst the bubble, but those plain and maybe quite uncomfortable sandals you are referring to, did conquer europe while covering the feet of the roman legions.
They did it without air cushioned heels and they did it the hard way. With attention to detail, discipline and great engineering (first phonton-bridge over the Rhine, superb aqueducts all over southern europe - some still standing after two milleniae).
So those sandals or the attitude going with them back then would just look great on some audio designers today.
Yes, it is of course fun discussing our toys.
But we are hardly discussing them.
The attention today is too much circled around the toys "per se" and discussion means different opinions. Different opinion about a component means heading straight into the mine-field of hurt feelings.
Quod erat demonstrandum in disputa ...........

Dear Thucham& Dertonarm, There is also much joy and fun in discussing in 'general' in this forum. I personaly enjoy to
readLewn,Carr,Dertonarm,Mikelangvine,Doug ,Thucham.etc.etc. for pure,say, intellectual reasons. It is not only about analog gear. There are many 'technical subjects' that are to complex for me to comprehend. But even so I very much enjoy reading about them . There are many inquisitive minds in our forum eager to post their knowledge and experience. We are, I assume, thankful for this shering. But there is no need ,I think, to become skeptical or even sarcastic about our gear. The most of us are very awere about the price-quality relation. I.e. the most of us can't afford those prices. One can of course dream about
winning the lottery and bay what ever one pleases but I don't belive that there are many who realy belive such an 'proposition'. So Thucham don't get 'sarcastic'. I have,btw, no worry about Dertonarm. Hi is 'indestructable'.
Regards,

Oh come on you great modern philosophers, it is so much fun discussing very high priced items, not only in the world of high end. Look at watches, cars, ships, helicopters, business jets (I hope you are well stuffed with those... :-)

So a rabbit needs to become a grizzly we have to have some respect when standing in front of it. This is the modern world we are all in - or do you like to walk without air powered, gel-filled and steam pressured shoes instead using the simple sandals of Pontius Pilatus...?

Dear Nandric, while I certainly enjoy your post and hold your attitude towards high end in high esteem, I think very few would like to follow us in the direction this discussion is now going.
While the original purpose of either "party" for the ultimate goal of this thread is long lost and the thread as alive as a dead horse, I would nevertheless add a final comment from my side.

My original intend - here and in many other threads I participated in - was, that everyone should at less show a remote interest in the art of deduction in the sense of looking close and with attention to detail to a new product. Without being - positively or negatively - biased in his view by name, image or price tag. I however realized that this in fact is the most dangerous mine-field of them all.
Way too many audiophiles do give individual audio components a status, which they never deserve.
This should all be about transmitting recorded music.
Any high-end component is nothing but a technical device which should - in an ideal world - suit it's purpose and should otherwise "vanish" from the mind and attention.
As this whole game is today a lot about money, buying power and image/status by owning certain (expensive) components this attempt is of course futile.
Looking close, looking for plain results, performance and contend does today interfere in the most cruel sense of the word with the price tag and the status gained by owning a hailed and expensive component.

Well - a brave new world.
The world we deserve - as we apparently don't ask for more and so deserve no better.

Dear Asa and Dertonarm, I am reluctant to debate the 'materialistic' view of scientific knowlege if this implys 'Phisicalism' in the sense of 'the same meaning' . I prefer to refer in this context to Harty Field's 'Physicalism and primitive denotation' (in :Reference,Truth and Reality). But I will begin with Frege. Frege started,so to speak, from Kant's distinction between 'analytic versus synthetic' in the context of 'knowlege'. But in distinction to all other 'philosophers' before him ,he put the 'sentence' ('proposition' or 'statement') as the 'basic' or primary unit for any logical,etc. investigation. So, according to him, one should never ask for the 'meaning' of an word 'outside' of
an sentence. Only in the context of an sentence has a word
an 'meanig'and reference(' About sense and reference').I.e. also an sentence has an reference: the truth values: the truth or the false. He refused the so called 'corresponence theory' of truth because he thought in the context of correspondence as 'identity relation'. I.e. there is no sence in 'identity' between linquistic (sentence)- and extra linquitic 'entitys'. So to explain this
Kantian 'notions' he used the identity sentence:
'the evening star'= (the 'is' of identity relation)'the morning star'.
The identity relation of 'the morning star = the morning star' is 'based' (Kant) on 'the same meaning' and is analytic. But the identity relation between 'the morning star and the evening star' is 'synthetic'.By empiric discovery we learned that those are the same 'star'. So this kind of discovery 'enlarge our knowlege'. For those interested in the 'sence or nonsence' of this distiction I must refer to Quine ('Two dogmas of empiricism'). I am particulary interested in the (contra) distinction between 'the author' and 'the writer' because our both 'dramatis personae' think that there is some 'huge' difference between the two,eh, say, expressions.
Well B. Russel invented some identity sentences of his own by 'wrestling' and trying to improve on Freges 'fundations' (of math.)
So he invented this:
'The aouthor of Wawerely = ('is' the same as) Walther Scott'.
But:
'The writer of Wawerley'= must be some other person,according to our 'dramatis personae' because those
'expressions' have totaly different meanings. So, to give him a name, John Bolton. Ergo we have two 'authors' or 'writers' of the same book?
I think that this is not sensible and to demonstrate how easy it is to be 'provocativ' and 'eloquent' at the same time I will also quote some Latin saying:'eloquentiea una
sapientiea guta'.
Regards,

Hello Asa, of course there is a steep difference between a "writer" and an "author".
If you are only familiar with the first one - that's fine.
Regarding the mind, it levels and materialistic "worldview" I strongly recommend reading two german authors' works: I. Kant's "Kritik der reinen Vernunft" as well as R. Steiner "Philosophie der Freiheit".
They give answers to your questions. The once you asked - and the questions you may think about.
Most dragons, as well as most demons, are only reflections by the back walls of once's own eye-lids.

I got it. The secret.
The art of tonearm design is the art of recognizing and managing emotions in materials.

Hello everyone. Well, I've been enjoying this all immensely! Please continue; nothing is better than watching cognitive agility in the service of, well...

I knew that when people started describing the "output" of a tool (read: turntable) as one that engenders the experience of "beauty" (that it what Valin said on the TW TT, right?) that it would not be long before the priests-of-things would call forth their Krakens.

"But maybe me [sic] concept of "quality" hasn't kept up with modern day view."

My, there's a statement that deserves some deeper discussion.

You know, and its just a cursory observation on my behalf, but my German heritage is wondering to itself whether the Will-to-be-a-Big-Me that I see derives in some way from a tribal Prussian past? You know what I'm talking about, that crazy, crazy evolution of collective consciousness reflected in hierarchies - from kin to clan to village to polis to state to nation-state - that somehow has not evolved enough just yet to know where it is, or that their are levels at all. Too busy looking at "things" for answers, perhaps...

Which brings me to:

As I understand empiric method, any injunctive engaged is necessarily subservient to the obsrevations of those injunctives.

I mean, many scientific materialists who default towards looking for the determintive truth in the objects which they see (and wish to control through the formal operations of their cognitive mind, and which they believe IS the mind, if they admit "mind" exists at all...) invariably say that they only need to manipulate matter (make a tool) to know the truth of that tool's funtion - mechanic or aesthetic - in reality. Interestingly, it is also fairly well agreed that this worldview is a hallmark of a certain level of mind; one that must necessarily relegate all worldviews that would require it to examine the limitations of its default cognitive motion, and which, necessarily, produces a reflex negative reaction to all minds that threaten that materialist worldview.

Jeez, have we observed anything like that lately?

Anyway, maybe its just me, but the progression of the above appears all too symptomatic.

Just as a side-note, as a writer, I don't know any writers who actually call themselves authors. Maybe its the translation thing, but I also don't know any writers who actually think that writing a technical paper is writing, much less author-ing. Oh yes, I "authored" a few TAS reviews myself, blah, blah...

Do any of you remember me, its been a long time? Well, the moderators certainly do; I've killed too many scientific materials and they won't let me talk to them any more (you know, scientific materialists react badly when they don't get their way...).

But, in their glowing knowledge, perhaps they will once more, oh just this once, let me through...

You know, because, sometimes it is actually killing Dragons...

I feel this thread illustrates a broader phenomenon of the internet: the erosion of hypothesis and observation based peer review in favor of dramatic testimonials and name calling.

Is this Marketing-Stage Number TWO ? what follows ? present-boxes for all customers? Do you have my adress?
No - hmmm

Dear Adog (cave canem ??),
auctoritas audiophil, non veritas facit legem.....
or in more simple words from the bible: - cuius enim panem manduco, carmina canto....
in ultima ratio.

One only has to look at reality. Reality is not an abstract nor is it fantasy.
TW-Acustic has now over 10 years in reality creating some of the finest analogue products in the world. All over this planet earth, there are hundreds and hundreds of extremely happy TW-Acustic customers all of which are thankful and respectful for the products that TW-Acustic has brought them. This is reality, just as Thomas Woschnick's back ground in electrical engineering, his years of teaching electrical engineering and the fact that over 90% of all TW products are made in house at TW-Acustics in Herne Germany. What also is reality, most analogue manufacturer and more to the point of this thread, tone arm manufactures do not in fact make their own tone arms. Most and we are talking about the biggest and most renown names in tone arm companies job out the making of their own product. Let's put this another way, most tone arm companies do not make/manufacture their own tone arms. Once again, over 90% of the TW 10.5 arm is made by TW-Acustic at TW-Acustic in Herne Germany. This is fact and or reality. Now, to those who live in their own reality or as some would say fantasy (to be kind). These people have no connection to the real world, do not create, nor have any thing tangible to offer or bring to the market place. Their subjective offerings are purely abstractions, non truths, distortions and ultimately, lies. In the delusional world one can be greater than all, have an answer for everything and reign superior against history, fact and reality. In the real world, proof is transparent, it's there for all to see and touch and ultimately decide if it is something they would care to purchase. This is reality, all the rest is purely fantasy.
On a personal note, I would like to extend my warmest and sincerest gratitude to all the hundreds of TW-Acustic owners I have had the honor and privilege to know and work with over all these years. Your are the ultimate reality and we thank you most respectfully.
Jeffrey Catalano
High Water Sound

"Unfortunately" both TW threads in the German forum have been closed now. The questions for technical design features based on the pricing created too much trouble there (without any comment from DerTonarm). Compared to that, the posts from DT are nice, friendly entertainment. Take it easy, there are more important problems out there.

Audiofeil

so far you get the best quote on this now comedy thread :>)

"So long as you point one at derblowhard as well.

But he and his flight attendant, syntax, get extra frequent flyer miles for chutzpah.

Now boarding, the Humility Express. Non-stop to Munich."

I have not laughed so much in quite a while. have a laugh at this Aussie comedy classik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcTel8JcM7g&feature=related

Oh boy those German web sites must be a hoot!!

Ahh Der Lapdog speaketh as predicted.

Dertonarm: See it is boring explaining things when you know in advance that the other can't possible comprehend.
........ its not about tube OR solid state, its about what you do and how.
I could rip your set-up into pieces from what I see in your pictures and description alone. But - so what - you are happy with it and that is fine.
That your benchmarks are so much lower than mine is your fortune.

Who am i to argue with a GOD ...

I'm dropping this thread from my watch list...
difool

>>01-28-10: Dertonarm
I know I am hard to stomach for you and some others right now<<

Like a root canal without novacaine

>>but you would be surprised what a nice and sociable man I am in real life.<<

Provided you get a real life.

Brilliant arguments shown on a thread lead to a loss of certainty by some of the participants I guess. When it comes to feelings they do start to express it changes the scene completely. But I do understand that attacking one´s system leads to dispute.
Brilliant arguments are only one part of the whole story, so Gerrym5 is right when stating why to push the button so often?

It makes me sad that some hangers-on use the opportunity to shoot their jammed ammunition.

It looks like a few of those gentlemen seem really wound up on the matter. They seem to lack a true life arena to express themselves in life.

It's amazing that you guys bother discussing an issue with the almighty Dertonarm. From what I've read, he feels that a good tonearm is one that is technically superior. No need to listen as to how it sounds. Design one, hang it on the wall and admire it. Amen.

Dertonarm, where would audio be today if everyone took your approach of massive negative attacks on a new product that you have never heard.Yes, we can comment on engineering approach, but still no verdict can be reached until the arm is used in systems and we hear the music that is produced. After number ramblings that you posted here,I can only assume that you are trying to badmouth the upcoming TW arm release. Your motives seem very dark and suspicious to me. I hope that this was just a bad spell of some kind. You can be interesting and informative as I've seen in reading some of your other postings. Lets see more of that Dertonarm.

BTW, can you post pictures of your arm?

As to my agenda, I was just trying to see if there was any user information from Germany on this arm. In a word, No. That's ok, it just shows the product will be totally brand new. It may be wonderful or may need revisions only time will tell. Considering how well TW-Acustic has backed their other products in the US. Early adopters may try this arm on its promise and its backing they feel about from TW.

I'm waiting to read the several TW arm reviews. I'm not an early adopter.

If its TW IT MUST BE GREAT!!

Dear Halcro, it sounds very nice.... what exactly did you say ?
Well - I do not want to disappoint you....
I didn't knew that you and TW are relatives and that I did deeply hurt your feelings by not labeling the Raven for its greatness and singular genius in design.
Too many audiophiles mistake components for beloved children - proving once again that all they care about the hardware only and that the "love for music" is carried like the cross of christ before them, but is only a hollow confession.

Is there an official promotion out there who gets the biggest discount for the best and most rude reply to me ?
In any case - it wasn't necessary to go to such length to tell me how right I am.
I fully understand that you do not want to learn and that you are fine with your set-up and the illusion of owning a system approaching the state of the art.
Absolutely no problem - certainly not mine.
BTW - neither you nor the other champs in that old thread you are referring to ever gave the topic a second ( a bit deeper ...) thought - did you?
You missed a chance.
Cheers,
D.

post scriptum: My set-up ? See it is boring explaining things when you know in advance that the other can't possible comprehend. But rest in peace - its tubes AND solid state......... its not about tube OR solid state, its about what you do and how. But that is a much more complicated subject than tonearms and turntables.
I could rip your set-up into pieces from what I see in your pictures and description alone. But - so what - you are happy with it and that is fine.
That your benchmarks are so much lower than mine is your fortune.
As I said much earlier in a lost thread - I too have some questions in audio, but I know I won't find any answers to my questions here.
I know I am hard to stomach for you and some others right now, but you would be surprised what a nice and sociable man I am in real life. I just react to something that provokes that reaction.

What I am still missing - is technical support for the 10.5. Isn't there any at all?

Nothing is more easy in high-end today, then designing and building a top-tier tonearm.
It is a purely mechanical device of simple function and just about 2 handful of issues to watch and to take care of.

TW missed out to address a hell of a lot of important design features of a truly great turntable in his Raven - as well as in his later offsprings.

Well Dertonarm,
You've reverted to your pompous best again. Opinion masquerading as "fact"?
Strange how there are dozens of us audiophiles here, who are aware that we have 'Opinions' and somehow the more we read and the more we learn, the less convinced we are that our 'Opinions' are necessarily correct or borne out by empirical evidence?
You however have no such doubts!
So let me respond to you in your own inimitable 'Derblowhard' fashion:-

"Very little is known about the total dynamic forces acting on tonearms and those who reduce the problems to those of 'statics' and 'Euclidian geometry' simply display their ignorance.
This was confirmed fairly emphatically when Mark Kelly exposed your ignorance of the dynamic forces and the equations involved in the acceleration and movement of the stylus within the record groove. Unfortunately your lack of education in physics and calculus make your assertions risible and embarrassing.

But then again your listening experiences are simply lacking when you hear only the FR-64 and 66 and think it is the greatest and the Graham Phantom is the second greatest. Your little lapdog Syntax even writes love letters to Bob Graham about his arm yet the Phantom sounds like a 'stick' compared to the Copperhead with MM/MI cartridges and with LOMCs the DaVinci 12" Ref Grandezza beats it in all aspects.
But you and your lapdog can't hear these things that we experienced audiophiles hear because lapdog has the Basis Debut turntable as his reference which, with its wobbly springs and acrylic plinth and platter has bloated loose bass, no soundstage and a total lack of treble presentation.
But I've never heard a word of denigration from you about this irrelevant and misconceived product?
Only the Raven cops it....endlessly....from you and your lapdog.
There is obviously a history here where Thomas and you and lapdog have come to blows???

In any case we don't even know what turntable you are using because you are too scared to tell us for fear of derision nor do we know your amplification but we can glean that it is all tube based so you have lots of noise and no control of the lower octaves and are thus unable to hear the innermost details that a fine SS phonostage and linepreamp can provide.
These facts are immutable but you are swayed by the overpaid theoreticians of old history tube circuits and prefer to shut your ears to the sound of real music.
This is borne out by the fact that you and lapdog only listen to MC cartridges instead of MM/MI ones which produce the sound of real music that Raul, Lewm and I are easily able to hear but which escapes you and lapdog because of your blind following of the audio magazines and reviewers and lapdog's quest for more and more expensive equipment to remove himself further and further from the sound of real music."

You see how it sounds Daniel?
Not very nice. But I expect to read immediately an obtuse and supposedly humourous (but in reality unintelligible) parable or cartoon from herr lapdog?

Dear Difool, with the tonearm TW is the co-designer (according to his own words..). Of course a great component can be designed from scratch. There are proven designs out there testifying that it can happen.
TW's turntable aren't that good an example however, as they may be average, but certainly not "top" ( they may perform "better" in some set-ups compared to the units "tested" in those set-ups before, but that is a purely relative comparison, certainly not an absolute one ) - at least not from the point of view of seasoned audiophiles who trust their own ears and don't fall right away for the latest hype-review of an under-paid and over-rated audio reviewer with little experience.
TW missed out to address a hell of a lot of important design features of a truly great turntable in his Raven - as well as in his later offsprings.
The fact that neither his customers nor some of the reviewers did notice that, is only testifying one of the inherent rules of this crazy business.

See - my critic goes ( this point gets lost again and again during this thread, as none of the TW-supporters does really react to the technical/design issue ) against its claim for "superiority" and the instant labeling that the new 10.5 will be a top-tier tonearm.

Nothing is more easy in high-end today, then designing and building a top-tier tonearm.
It is a purely mechanical device of simple function and just about 2 handful of issues to watch and to take care of.
All you need is a good eye, concentrate use of at least one brain, a good blue-book and a clear idea of what you really want to achieve.
Shouldn't be too hard ....

As said before - ALL issues in pivot-tonearm-design have been addressed already. However they were never addressed so far in ONE single tonearm ever brought to the market (a few however came VERY close... one or two of them are still current production...).
All a designer has to do today, is to watch closely and have a deep analysis of the best tonearm designs out there. Then combining their virtues and eliminating and addressing the very few points left.
e' voila - the "perfect" tonearm.

But if I see a new design, which is sadly uninspired and misses out on a lot of those issues to be addressed no one can expect me to raise my hands in praise to the new conquering hero.

As said before - I am sure that the two co-designers of the 10.5 will see in the very near future the design points they missed and we will see a MK 2-version by 2011.
At least - I hope so.

Dear Dertonarm,
sorry if it has been said from your side:
why shouldn't TW be able to build a top Tonarm without a predecessor? To my memory, which can be false, he did so with the Raven.