True or False?


The following is a common sentiment from some who claim to be audiophiles.

If you hear something but can’t measure it, you only think you heard a difference.

 

This notion is also common among people who claim to possess an accomplished understanding of audio, especially when achieving a high level of performance for a minimal investment.

So who’s right? On the one hand we have Objectivists who claim if you can’t measure it, you can’t possibly hear it or if you do, its expectation bias and self delusion. Are these people correct? Do they get as good as a sound, or better for far less money by ignoring cables, power cords, mechanical isolation, basically any accessory that many have found to dramatically improve performance despite a lack measurements? Do those who dismiss expensive digital to analog converters as being no better than rather common digital components with decent measurements get just as high a performance level as those of us with MSB and DCS? Do people who claim it’s all about finding perfect speaker placement, do these people outperform those of us with systems that cost multiples more than what they pay (Who also pay close attention to speaker placement as well as everything else)? Or do those of us who pay attention to cables— digital, analog, and power, what we set our components on top of, how we place our speakers, acoustics, and tweaks, expensive DACs and the like, do we get better sound? Who’s right? And how do we ultimately determine sound quality?

 

 

 

128x128ted_denney

Showing 4 responses by astolfor

@russ69 it is not one or the other what brings the best of audio gear and rooms. I believe you need both.

For ourselves, my partner and I, we listen and then we do measure IF we like it. We want to make sure that both my ears and logic participate. I have yet to listen a system I liked, that did not measure with he same degree of goodness.

Why people are afraid of measurements, or make it a binary option? I am not saying to not trust your ears over measurements, but undoubtedly measurements will take you in paths, some good and some bad, that your ears alone could not.

Yes there are some things that are very difficult to measure but most everything can be measured. I even measured my old NHB-458 and the NHB-468 before I upgraded. The NHB-468 sounds better in most areas than the NHB-458 for sure, but it also measures better.

The same is true with speaker placement. Sure you can place your speakers by ear, but you are leaving at the very least 30%-40% on the table from a proper sonically measured room. 20 years back I moved to a hew house with 3 rooms that were used for music, all sonically treated with bass traps, etc., but the rooms were just ugly. The sound was incredible, my gear never sounded so good, but we were fortunate to meet a couple that designs opera houses and symphony halls. To make the story short, I hired their company to come and look at the rooms and see if they could be improved and wanted the rooms to be more than music rooms.

They measure the rooms as they were, and then removed every single panel, every single diffuser and bass trap, took every piece of furniture and started to measure the empty room with lots of microphones, and selected quite a few optimal speaker placements and marked the positions with an UV paint each one with a different sound signature. Then incrementally added furniture at the end we had 3 rooms that sounded magnitudes better than before, without the vast majority of panels, diffusers or bass traps. Just 2 diffusers in one room, 1 diffuser in another, 1 bass trap and 2 diffusers the another. The 3 rooms are much more inviting and comfortable, that sound better not just for us but for most of our friends including 2 of our friends, that play piano and cello in concert halls around the world.

Now, we can use them for listening and to entertain too. Sure they could have used a few more panels/diffusers to make the rooms better sounding, but my partner and I appreciated the styles in the room more than the incrementally better sound experience.

Recently I bought a house for work in the USA, the house is made of wood sticks, the floor is suspended on wood sticks, basically a big resonator. I got REW and and 2 microphones, after 3 days of listening and measuring what I was listening, I ended with a room that sounds way better than what I started and 2 basic speaker placements, one for Classic/Spanish guitar/Flamenco and one for Rock.

Every ear is different, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I do not understand why one would spend $x on audio gear and not, at the very least, spend 2-3 days with REW, listen and measure as to extract everything out of your room and system.

Sorry for my grammar, I started to learn English late in my life.

@milpai extremes, specially opinions, are of no use in any facet of life or engineering, they always left behind a lot  of good things, but again that is my opinion :)  

@ted_denney  +1 with everything adds up, but there are few exceptions like Ethernet switches and cables; saying that ethernet cables and switches can make a difference in the sound, engineeringly and electrically nonsense; and this is very different that cable and speaker cables for example.  The Ethernet subject is a completely different domain.

Few things will achieve more than speaker placement. If my $50K speakers in the USA are placed incorrectly they will not sound good regardless.

REW is good enough for me and my limited knowledge on sound measurements, but helped me hugely to make my room in the USA sound magnitudes better. Professional services like the one I get from these 2 companies are in the order of magnitudes of what I can achieve with REW but cost in the many of thousands Euros more.

 

@ted_denney  this is not about being sure, it is about knowing the protocols involved, electrical engineering and signal paths.

They do not even make a difference at the Ethernet physical layer.

But  if Ethernet "audio" switches and cables sound better to you, then good for you.

@tubebuffer you are assuming, which is not the equivalent of knowledge. You have absolutely no idea what I have listened or not. I am lucky to be able to buy anything I want at any price and I do, but first my partner and I have to like how it sounds.

@ted_denney 

What am I wrong about, 25 years of electrical engineering for one of the largest tech companies in the world, contributing to multiple IEEE protocol working groups for different protocols including IB, Ethernet, FC, AMBA, contributing to PCI-SIG, knowing the signaling path in simple bus adapter like a NIC, over 35 years of listening all kinds audio equipment, or that if something sounds better for you, then good for you?

When emotions and absolutes get added to a discussion is where I stop engaging, not worth the time.