Transfiguration Orpheus - Has anyone tried it ?

Sirspeedy, what is the retip price of a V? Thanks! Great BB, by the way!

I meant "bulletin board" should have called it the forum. I was hoping to find a ballpark price, since I just recently heard $1,500 to "retip" a V, and that seemed really high even by MC cart standards. Thank you -- Larry

And shake me down for the wine I might owe you too, I suppose! I do want to take about a week, two at the most.
Larry

Nsgarch, the Orpheus is also slightly heavier than the V (9 vs. 7.5 gm.), and I can feel a slightly higher moment of inertia. So far, LP handling/playing and a very low level of record scratch don't seem to suggest adversity from either the compliance or the greater weight.

OK, as far as I can eyeball it, the stylus-to-top distance is exactly the same, or not enough difference that I can tell it. Sorry 'bout that.
Larry

I really think it is. I'm being conservative for a few days, but it does seem like a major step forward. I adjusted the VTA to remove an almost imperceptible armtube downslope, think it lost a little, and will take it back to where it was.

Larry

I don't use it much now, but am very happy with it. It had to be repaired once a few years ago, to replace an idler wheel that was starting to slip. I felt lucky a replacement (non-Nak) part was available. Does anyone make cassette decks of this quality any more?

Uh, gee, great -- what are the responsibilities of a new "best friend"? :-)

OK, troops, I've put about 12 hours on the new Orpheus, and am ready to give my opinions. I wanted to give it a good break-in and be sure, because recommending a $2,550 (Tommy from Apb3400c@aol.com) to $5,000 (full retail price) cartridge to folks is a serious responsibility. Incidentally, I tried e-mailing Roy who started this thread, but it bounced back and the website in his e-address isn't active. Maybe he'll peek in again soon.

I am very -- extremely -- positive about the Orpheus! Let me give you some background re my Temper V, and then what I hear in this cart. I first looked into getting a new cart because my V began to have funny things happen to it. It was originally a demo, and although it was supposed to be OK, the cantilever looked a little deviated to the LP's inside. Over the approx. year I've had it, it seemed to gradually lose its accuracy and, more important, musicality. Friend Gary (gdpowers who posted above; I'm the "best" friend, though, according to sirspeedy) thought so, too.

So, I decided to look at getting a new one vs. a retip, and was told about the Orpheus for the first time. It was at that point that I Googled up this forum and thread -- a GREAT find! I mention all this in order to be clear that MY comparison of the Orpheus and the V in its present state would obviously be flawed. It would have to be with how I (and Gary) remembered how great the V sounded a year ago. Well...it always seemed to exaggerate record scratch a bit, so it might not have been a perfect cart even then.

But, by and large, I'm really very sure that my comments below are a fair comparison, since I've listened to a few Transfigurations over the years and Gary has a Temper that he likes and so does everyone who hears it.

The Orpheus really stands out every time I hear it, and I've really gone back to listening to a lot of my LPs including some I haven't listened to for a long time because they didn't sound that good. ALL of them sound good, now. I hear the following:
- A great increase in clarity AND instrumental accuracy, all the way down into the bass
- A considerably more powerful bass than I've had with any other cart including the V
- A quieter background, like the signal-to-noise ratio has been improved. I didn't think a cart would do that, but there you have it IMO.
- The timbre or tone-quality of instruments is better, especially of string sections. Strings tend to get steely on Klipschorns, even with tube equipment, and the softer, more individually parsed-out sound of violins has been quite a pleasant surprise. It still probably isn't like great cone speakers, but then those aren't always that realistic in woodwind and brass reproduction, either.
- Record scratch is nicely minimized, more than my seemingly flawed V anyway, but also compared with that from Clearaudios and Benz's that I experienced. I myself am convinced that it the record noise is as good as it's going to be. I haven't tried any tracking tests yet (I will), but no big problems so far.

So, as you can see, I'm enthusiastic, though I really hope for more reviews, since only one can be misleading. I'd be glad to demo it if any of this group is in the DC area.

One interesting new thing (for me) in the installation instructions: to initially set the tracking force at 0.2 gm until most of the alignment is done. A great idea.

Lemme know if you have any questions.

Larry

Although I've tried to make that clear from the beginning, it is worth repeating. To be continued.

Glad to hear it, very interesting -- do you recall what Brit pub, and is a link available? I've been too busy to give my cart much more time in the last week. It seems to react rather critically to alignment, and I'm heading toward absolutely level, not tail up or down. Surprisingly (to me anyway), record scratch seems to be a little more noticeable at tail down.

I really sympathize no vinyl. I may have a different problem -- the CD player quality was pretty even with LPs until I got the Orpheus. Now I'm hearing better low-level detail from my LPs, and am having to deal with whether there's something I can or should do about that. That does support the lower-noise impression that I have. Stay tuned; now, I've got travels coming up and won't finish breaking in the cart until late June.

Again, thanks --

I would be very interested in reading your comparisons. I have an Orpheus, but haven't compared it with others like you have. I used to have a Transfig Temper V, which I think was a very fine cartridge whose detailing was not quite as good, perhaps because it seemed to have a higher background noise level. Thanks,
Larry

No, no, no !!! It's your responsibility to buy all the same stuff I do, if you as impressed as all that. No exceptions. Thanks for the clarification, though.

Transfiguration is distributed in the US by Profundo, at http://www.profundo.us/ The Orpheus is not yet up on this website (neither is the "Aria"). I've been told it's more like $5k (full retail), but would be very interested to know if it's less.

Sirspeedy,
It looks like a lot of people owe you a nice bottle of wine, and I'd be glad to do my bit. I looked at gcaudio's site earlier, saw Transfiguration but no pricing details. However, I already have an Orpheus on order, though it sounds like I may have missed a good deal from GCA. I'll definitely keep your recommendation in mind in case I or a nearby friend who has a Temper W needs a retip in the future. Thanks!
Larry

I'll be very happy to, especially after I think it's broken in enough. I'll get it tomorrow and will install it over the weekend. It is more expensive. Stay tuned.
Larry

Oops, I need to look at the VTA. The Orpheus stylus looks like it projects downward a little farther which might make it higher, so I need to go back and make sure the armtube and cart are as horizontal as I can get them.

I didn't pursue it after everything else, because, before installation, when I set the V and the Orpheus upright side by side resting on their stylus guards, their heights including the stylus guard, as closely as I could tell by a very close-up look, were exactly the same! However, I realize now I should have turned them over and compared their stylus-to-top heights without the guards in the way. I'll let you know what I find, not long from now. It should be very close.

I definitely agree that lower output = more subtlety in MC carts. That's why I got a V instead of a W. My initial read here is a great deal of increased detail top to bottom, and more bass. The Reference AV site lists reasons why this might be the case, including tighter coupling and better resonance control for noise reduction, which I also think I hear. Anyway, I still need a few days --

Larry

The equipment -- a Basis Ovation TT upgraded with the Debut platter on a Townshend sink on a Target wall-mount; Vector 3 tonearm with the VTA option; the new Orpheus; a Joule Electra LAP-150 tube preamp (this has a phono stage in the preamp chassis and a separate power supply); a pair of Joule Electra VZN-100 100-watt OTL monoblocs; a pair of Klipschorns, with the up-to-date AK-4 drivers and crossovers (rewired with Siltech internal wire) in '62 mahogany lacquer bodies; an ESP power cord on the preamp and NBS power cords on the monoblocs; a PS Audio P-300 powering the TT, and Siltech I/C's and Basis speaker cables.

Non-phono stuff: a Nak CR-7A cassette deck and Wadia 2-box CD player (270 and 27i). Townshend sinks for the CD transport, and preamp as well as the TT. The P-300 also powers the cassette deck and the 270.

LP's -- hmm. I'll select from just a few for an initial impression, e.g., the Reiner Scheherazade; London recordings of the Dvorak last 3 symphonies, Mozart and Beethoven; Berlioz Nuites d'ete; the Muchinger/VPO Haydn Creation, etc. Those are really examples of the initial LPs -- from there, I branch out to an indefinable variety that I think will bring out the advantages of the new item or sometimes that have presented problems that I'd like to see how it will handle or improve the sound and musicality I'd like to hear. The main points here are to either (1) confirm or raise questions about what I think I'm hearing, and (2) see how well the music and its emotion is conveyed.
Larry

SirSp. -- Thanks, you very perceptively pulled my approach right out of my subconscious! I really fell into my mahogany K's, which are very pretty, by buying them as the third owner from a friend over 20 years ago. I think I eventually found out why the previous two sold them: see the Klipsch Forum thread, on restoring the normal bass horn throat in these babies: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/350047.aspx.

Comments on the Orpheus in a day or two! Is Roy still around?

Gary -- No, according to Sir's definition, I'M YOUR "best friend" -- I sometimes buy spendy stuff and then you get to pick and choose what to look for on Audiogon!

Best, all --

Actually, K-horns were made to exactly the same dimensions over their 55 (so far) year life, and the major evolution of the drivers and horns seems to have stabilized by the later '60's, so that the real differences seem to have become (1) the successive crossover models and (2) the tendency of Xover capacitors to deteriorate as they age. Any crossover over 20 yrs. old needs to have its caps "freshened" i.e., replaced, and I have heard one rather bad-sounding pair that needed it (sounded great afterward). There are a number of folks on the forum who either make a newer design of xovers, or keep the design the same but replace the caps and maybe a few other things. So I wouldn't expect even a 70's, let alone a 60's K-horn to sound up to snuff without that being done.

And, from what I've seen on the forum, it's very rare for a 60's vintage to show up without scratches, water marks, peeled-off veneer, grill cloth in shreds, and the like. Mine are in very fortunate shape.

No, I am actually not familiar with analog threads -- do you mean on Audiogon? I'm not even sure how to get there. But, this has been a very civilized, knowledge-ridden experience, and I'm grateful. Anyway, I have ALWAYS believed that the sound sources are critical, and none more so than cartridge transducers. So far, I think the Orpheus is in a very high class -- higher than any other I've heard, anyway.

Yeah, yeah, dermatology...my father thought that dentistry was ideal, so I know your son's feelings about that so-so prestige/regular-hours bit!

I'll try to find the Audiogon analog forums --

Many thanks,
Larry

Gary - Your comments are indeed honest as always, but note that your two comments above differed in tenor. I agree with both to some extent.

Gary and Sirspeedy - I've got too much good music on my CDs not to at least think about making sure whether I can or cannot make the CD player closer to the LP player.

Sirspeedy -- Steve Huntley has brought many otherwise ordinary CD players, including mine, much closer to analog. We'll see.

Sir(!) -- I installed it late this AM, listened to only 2 LPs before turning to other things I have to do now. So far, I really, really like this cart right out of the box. It has only small break-in issues to get past! I want to get a little time on it before seriously commenting, so look for something mid-week.

I'm really surprised at the price quoted above. I think I saw that in an e-mail that -- apologies to the sender -- I thought was spam.

Other carts? I had a series of Benz and Clearaudios courtesy of Musical Surroundings, and ended up not liking any (including an LP Ebony) as much as my earlier Transfiguration T. Supreme. The CAs were bright and brought out record scratch, and the Benz's tended to be uninspired IMO. I went back to a T-fig when it got a new US distributor. A friend who also has a Basis table and Vector arm, had a Denon and a Glider (and some MMs) before he also settled on a Temper -- and altho' our musical tastes and electronics couldn't be more different (tho' we both have Klipschorns), he also wouldn't consider any other cart. That said, neither of us has tried an Ortofon, ZYX (sp?) or other of the ones mentioned above.

Later,
Larry

Let's see if I can answer some of your questions, plus I have another: I sent e-mails to you and Roy, and got bounce-backs. Any idea why?

I'll be glad to come back in 2 weeks with further comments, but was concerned the thread would die from disuse if much time went by. Besides, the elements of my comments are very unlikely to change (or I hope not), so I saw no reason to hold back. I also sensed that the sound blossomed out over the 4 days, but have hearing in only one ear and thus can't pick up on soundstage subtleties.

I use Formby's lemon oil. I used Murphy's wood soap one time and was chagrined to find it darkened the darker part of the grain, a loss in the way it appears to shift with the light. It's mostly come back, but I decided to stick with lemon oil and not experiment from that point on.

While a few have multiple K-horns, it's more common to have 2 or more systems in the house, sometimes with different sized Klipsch speakers from system to system. Some also experiment with different tweeters and midrange horns, and different crossovers. I don't recall either the Townshend nor the Murata being mentioned on the forum. It almost seems that you and the others here move in a different world, component- and mod-wise from the Klipsch forum guys.

I'm pretty conservative, have not gone for mods except (1) Basis factory mods to the Ovation and (2) mods to the Wadia units by Steve Huntley of Great Northern Sound, who used to have a responsible position at Wadia and did factory-authorized work for them after leaving. I would be very leery of modding any of my electronics. I did try a new tweeter made for Klipsch products, but was one of a small number who found it had too many disadvantages.

Anyway, I don't think the essence of what I reported will change except for the better, so I'm comfy with reporting now.

Sr.,
Oops, I didn't think you were "insinuating." I do think I see bandwagons at times. Like a recent tweeter replacement for the K-horn/La Scala/Belle K-77 tweeters, which most liked but I and a very few others tried and thought didn't musically blend with the rest of the speaker. Most thought it was a big improvement, over Beyma tweeters (a previous favorite) as well as the K-77 for example, and which also has been thought to be better than the K-77.

In the mid-range, one forum member has developed a Tracterix mid-horn he calls the Trachorn, and which again many on the forum think is a better mid horn (the standard mid driver apparently passes muster). Based on my tweeter experience, I tend to suspect that such items developed outside the historic and current Klipsch factory and research center may have more clarity but also may have less thorough working-out and musicality than I think is traditionally Klipsch. I don't know, of course, but that's my real answer -- and I gotta be shown otherwise.

Yep, Steve is really outstanding, has great judgement IMO and really tells it like it is.

I'm on the lookout for further changes in the Orpheus sound. I expect the highs broadly speaking will smooth down further, though they certainly aren't bad now, and perhaps detail will become finer -- I'll try to assess and let you know.

Congrats on your son's fortunate and hard-working success. I take it he's entering a residency (specialty training after medical school)? Good for him and you --

Larry

Didn' know this thread had reawakened -- it's too hard to accurately convey what someone else will hear and how they'll react, to write this with certainty. My Orpheus still has only 25 hrs. on it, and I don't think it's fully come into its own.

I think the difference between it and my former V (at its best) is greater than Gary describes. Most striking to me has been how much quieter the background seems, with better emergence of low-level detail and more separation of musical notes from the surrounding silence. The bass is also better, clearer, more detailed.

Bloom: if that means a sense of dimensionality, it's been my sense that it's pretty good, lots of space around the notes (which I think I can hear even with hearing in only one ear -- it helps with hearing the music).

Warmth: I'm not clear on what that means -- if a fuller lower middle range, no, I don't think it has more of that than the Tempers. If it means instrumental sweetness, well, so far it sounds a bit clinical to me. However, I do feel that may correct with more time.

I'm with Tubes108 that the Temper V (and W) are very fine cartridges and don't need changing out for great, great satisfaction. I'll come back on after I get 40-60 hours on it with any different opinion. It clearly changes (e.g., reduced brightness) with break-in, and that hasn't stopped as yet.