Vincentkkho,
The more I thought about this the more I think I need to retract my assertion on a false reading as a result of the magnetic attraction. Certainly with the cartridge suspended over the gauge, one sees a negative reading appear. However, when the stylus touches down and makes contact and the arm is free to move, I think there is no upward force and the gauge is truly reading the VTF. What do others think?
Andrew |
Aoliviero -- I experience the same with the 95 gauge and I usually tare it by holding the cartridge to the nearest point before the stylus touches the surface. This, hopefully, helps to eliminate any magnetic attraction, if there is any, and hence allow the "near" absolute VTF to be measured with that particular cartridge. With this, I also discovered different "negative" values in the readings after taring the scale for different cartridges. I suppose it is due to the strength and design of the magnet in these cartridges. |
Hey fellas,an interesting point,and something I can look forward to "scoping out".......Since my circuit breaker box was damaged in the lightning strike(eluding my audio room,thankfully),the electrician doing the new work,and providing a far better "box",claims my current to my electronics was severly limited,by the old unit.He claims I will receive a far better current delivery,and sound, with my new box(I hope).
Also,Jeff Rowland claims(I hope all these claims are a "little bit" accurate)the new power supply circuitry he has given me is far more advanced,and reliable than the old(only two yrs)one.He also claims it cost him a small fortune,yet since I was such a good sport,for waiting without "kvetching",there is NO charge.What a nice guy!
He was,also,in a severe motorcycle accident,but is thankfully fine.I cannot stand by and let him bear this expense without some kind of action,on my part,so I have decided to offer his company some free printing.It seems like the right thing to do,even though I was under warranty.
BTW--I will be enjoying the upcoming TV season in "wide screen Hi Def".I think my family deserves some fun,as the last few weeks have been horrible,and we'd like to put it behind us.
As for my tennis game...It seems like I will be on permanent leave,there,as my epidermal layer(on my palms,and finger tips) has still not healed.My Dr claims this was from all the stress,yet I thought I was handling everything quite well,but this "hands crap" really sucks.Imagine brushing your tweeth in pain.I don't have to go anywhere else,with this.Use your imagination.
Though I will still set-up my pal's Tranny Orpheus,only will be wearing cotton gloves.
Based on my schedule,and desperately in need of a nice vacation,I may wind up going to the RAF!!BOY,would I love that.I'll bet my hands would clear up,too!
Best!! |
Yes, I expect to soon see posts by SirSpeedy that are oozing exuberance over a newly modified amp!
Good on you, Mark!
BTW, based on your comments about the build quality of this guage I was expecting something much more flimsy. I have to say that I find it pretty well made, but I do understand you have access to a Winds for comparison.
Best,
Dan |
Happy to hear that Mark.....hope it comes soon...and enjoy!
Rick |
Something I had mentioined in the past,and worth repeating.I had compared the 95 dollar guage(I have it too)to my pal's Winds guage.The Winds guage is built like a tank.It has proven very useful,to my friend.It also,weighs a ton,and exudes quality,as in "I'm gonna last a lifetime"!The 95 dollar guage,we are speaking of was within .03 gms of the Winds when we compared accuracy.Beyond that we always tune by ear anyway.All in all this little guy is a fabulous buy,and the most recent issue of HiFi Choice has just reviewed it,stating it was "far more accurate than any guage they EVER tested"!I still think it looks a bit cheap,though.
The door,on guages should really be closed with this cute little device,though I'd be happy to trade mine for a mint Winds!
Best!
PS--for anyone following my audio life,as of lately,my Rowland has finally shipped!!HOORAY!!! |
Andrew,
Mine does this as well. I did check that the metal around the target area is not magnetically attracted with a pretty strong magnet. I didn't pay attention to what that magnet did to the readout since we were just concerned with the possibility that the cartridge would attract the metal. Like you say, it does seem repeatable and that's what really counts.
Best,
Dan |
Dear Andrew: Yes, with the Clearaudio.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Guys,
One more thing to add about the 95 gauge. I've noticed that as the cartridge is lowered down onto the gauge, and just before touchdown, the gauge begins to read negative. In my case it can be as mach as -0.03 g. Although the gauge is advertised as being non-magnetic, I suspect that there is some magnetic attraction between the cartridge magnet that slight pulls the gauge in its direction. The actual negative component is probably greater when the needle is on the surface. Therefore, the actual VTF is probably higher than indicated, albeit repeatable.
Have you experinced this? |
I bought the $95 gauge and I'm extremely happy with it. Very repeatable and reliable. Highly recommended. |
seems to be the same, but only weighs to hundreths. However, less money, and seems accurate, etc. Shipping was very fast [1 week +/- ]
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIGITAL-STYLUS-GUAGE_W0QQitemZ180000183049QQcategoryZ64620QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
Yeah, this thing works great! |
I'm confused as well, Albert. This scale looks to be just about perfect for taking a reading with the stylus at the same level as it would be sitting on an LP. Just place the scale on your platter and take a reading. Couldn't be more simple.
If Andrew is referring to a method that uses a "normal height" scale without using a jig then I'm not so confused. However, why move VTA at all? That is much more complicated and prone to error than just going ahead with a jig. There is nothing wrong with a jig as long as the scale you're using it with can tare out the weight of the jig and the weight of the jig doesn't overload the scale. |
Great posts,by many of you "reliable" guys!!
Just to clear up some of my comments regarding the Build of the Singapore guage,which I DO own,and like enough to have given away(for free,btw)my Audio Parts guage(another nice one,too),my concern about build was only in reference to my friend Sid's Winds guage.It is built like a tank(the Winds).I know the "Singapore special" is alot less money,but I'll bet it costs next to nothing to manufacture,and even at 95 bucks,they could have made it a bit more robust in the density of the plastic.It is SOLEY my little gripe,and taste.
It is clearly "the" guage to have,based on the performance,and it was me who felt my friends should go in on one,with me.Trust me,it was NOT an easy "sell" to them!!Well we did,and ALL like it.
I'm really glad all of you like it as well,as you are some of the nicest hobbyist types I've ever corresponded with.
I'm especially happy that Albert feels it is a good value,since he has the FABULOUS Winds!!Then again Albert seems to have "the fabulous everything"!
Best! |
I'm confused by repeated comments about VTA. The platform on the Winds and this less expensive gauge from Singapore both have platforms that are about the same thickness of an LP.
Are you guys leaving the LP on the platter and placing the gauge on top to get VTA off enough to be a problem? |
Guys,
Thanks. I ordered one a couple of weeks ago but haven't received it yet. I'm glad that everyone is happy with it. I like the fact that its range is only 5g, its accurate, and non magnetic.
QUESTION:
Many have said that it's important to measure the VTF at record level. Instead of making platfroms and jigs, etc, what about increasing the VTA by roughly the height of the scale. I guess this should only be done if you have a ultra-reproducible VTA adjustments.
PS, Dan I'm looking forward to your Denver trip report.
Andrew |
I received my gauge from Singapore as well. I am completely satisfied with it's appearance and construction for the low sum of $95.00 delivered.
Tomorrow night is music night, we plan on testing two or three different stylus force gauges, once the Walker is warmed up.
Lloyd Walker himself will be here in a few days, I plan on getting his opinion too.
For those that did not read my earlier post, I have the 1/100ths gram version of the Winds for reference. |
Hi Andrew,
Just so happens that I received my order of this scale in time to take it with me to Denver. I didn't do any actual VTF measurements with it, but Thom and I did compare the readings to his scale and also test the metal with a pretty strong magnet. Based on what we say I feel confident in saying that we all have absolutely nothing to fear. I used the calibration weight in my kitchen in New Hampshire and got a reading of 5.001. In Thom's basement in Denver I got a reading of 5.006. Pretty good considering the differences in altitude and weather.
SirSpeedy, I'm not sure what you were referring to specifically in some of your comment on the build. Now that I have one I can hold in my hands I'll look back through your posts and see if I can pick out what you meant.
In all, I'm very happy with this scale. I plan on doing some actual VTF measurements tonight when I get home. for those that have a scale that works for them I can't see the need to buy one just for the sake of it. But if you are in the same situation like I was of still searching for a good way to get repeatable VTF then the just could be exactly what you're looking for. |
Vetterone,
I wonder if they are using a 310 or 316 grade of SS. Below is some background of magnetic properties of stainless steels. I have one on order and will check this with a magnet.
Background
Magnetic permeability is the ability of a material to carry magnetism, indicated by the degree to which it is attracted to a magnet. All stainless steels, with the exception of the austenitic group, are strongly attracted to a magnet.
Austenitic Grades
All austenitic grades (300 series) have very low magnetic permeabilities and hence show almost no response to a magnet when in the annealed condition; the situation is, however, far less clear when these steels have been cold worked by wire drawing, rolling or even centreless grinding, shot blasting or heavy polishing. After substantial cold working Grade 304 may exhibit quite strong response to a magnet, whereas Grades 310 and 316 will in most instances still be almost totally non-responsive.
The change in magnetic response is due to atomic lattice straining and formation of martensite. In general, the higher the nickel to chromium ratio the more stable is the austenitic structure and the less magnetic response that will be induced by cold work. Magnetic response can therefore be used as a method for sorting grades of stainless steel, but considerable caution needs to be exercised.
Andrew
|
I said the gauge comes with (there are several jokes here but I better leave it alone) three batteries when in fact it comes with four thin watch type batteries. It uses two batteries at a time so you have a spare set. I guess battery life is still an unknown at this time. |
Aoliviero, the surface that is used to rest the stylus on is non-magnetic genuine stainless steel. It also has a thin plastic or nylon type pad with a bull's eye glued to the recessed center of the scale's metal pad. This "landing zone" is slightly concave. I guess this is there to help center the stylus and give more consistent readings as well as potect the stylus. If you place the stylus on the bull's eye, your stylus has no where to move but up hill. While this unit is built to a price point, it is also well thought out. It has nine felt feet on the bottom to protect your platter, you can turn the readout light on or off and the scale pad has a built in cover to keep the dust off the LZ to help keep your little diamond clean. It comes with a 5 gram test weight, three batteries, a vinyl case and you can calibrate the readout. Unlike many gadgets in our beloved hobby, this one has real bang for the buck. |
ALL,
Key question. Does the $95 gauge have a magnetic surface that the stylus would be positioned on? Will the magnet in a cartridge affect the accuracy of the reading with this gauge? |
Opalchip said:
"BTW - in my own experience, subtle changes in antiskate have a larger effect on sonics than equally subtle changes in VTF. Everyone's different, but I need about two tenths of a gram change in VTF to hear a really significant change, while less than a 1/10 gm. change in A.S. can make a huge difference to me."
Opalchip, I have found slight changes in VTF to have a very worthwhile effect, but I actually wonder if I'm not adjusting VTF to sync with a particular antiskate setting. The former obviously influences the later, and VTF is usually adjustable in much finer increments.
I find myself setting suitable AS first, then dialling in VTF to lock in the sound. If AS is adjusted, then VTF must be fine tuned again.
IMO a single best VTF for all AS settings doesn't exist. |
Vetterone,
Thanks for that input. I was planning to purchase a calibrated weight and checking it for accuracy AND repeatability. It is good to know you are getting good results on both.
Andrew |
Opalchip,I can't say that I'm not a sucker,at times.-:)
Also,I really DO believe that though the Winds is a fabulous guage(my friend has it,and I've used it extensively),the asking price is going to be it's downfall,now with this new 95 dollar job being so darn good.
The only thing,IMO,keeping this new guage from being the "ONE" to have would be its long term accuracy,and reliability.Let's hope it holds up.Then it would be "sayonara" to the 600-800 dollar Winds guages!Or any other,I guess.
Best! |
Hi - I didn't mean to imply the $95 is a sucker price, (or anyone buying that one is) since it's about right for that particular scale. I was referring to other scales I've seen marketed to the audiophile community for upwards of $250. |
Vetterone, thanks for posting some measurements. Sounds like your results back up SirSpeedy's.
Hi Albert, I knew that shipping and the paypal fee was included but didn't think about it being airmail.
Opalchip, I understand your reasoning and don't really disagree. I don't think this is a "must have" set-up tool. However, it has been my experience that I will always be changing arms, cartridges, tables, etc., and any tool that can speed up the process is worth my giving serious consideration to adding it to my tool box. Thanks to the feedback this guage has received here on A'gon and the fact that Acoustic Sounds is now selling them, for a pretty hefty mark-up, I'm convinced enough to risk $100. I don't think anyone who buys one of these should be considered a sucker. But, to each his own.
SirSpeedy, I had seen this guage about the time you did but my hat's off to ya for taking the plunge first. I'll gladly buy the first round. But trust me, you don't want me picking the wine! I've pretty much exhausted my knowledge if wine with my last post. :) |
Agreed Vetterone.
Dan_ed. The force gauge from Singapore is not only less than $100.00, air shipping is included at that price. |
Two things.Well,maybe three.--Dan,I said cheap(still some good stuff,there),not "crapola".Just kidding.You owe me nothing!
The guage,for 95 bucks,includes shipping!Put THAT in your pipe,doubters!!
As to the business of the Jensen scales.I had one,and actually liked it,though there was a platform for dropping the weigh area.I guess I have no problem getting "ripped" a little.Take a look at,and use some common sense regarding stuff like NOS tubes(I spent big dough,here,and got a nice improvement/revoicing,in my phonostage)etc!PLEASE!95 bucks for a really cute device like this is a MUST,to me!My two other friends who have it love it too.
Best! |
For what it may be worth, I have a lab certified 2 gram weight and today this new scale from Singapore read exactly 2.000g nine out of ten times. One time it read 1.998g. Last week, it read 2.000g ten times in a row. It also seems to be very consistent in its readings when used with a cartridge. It may be worth every bit of a C-note. |
Hi Dan - I realize that most of the people posting here are sophisticated enough to know this stuff, and make a decision based on their own needs (or psychology) - but I often like to play the Devil's Advocate for newbies who are reading Audiogon and wondering if they now need to spend $250 on a scale for their $650 Rega, etc. These pocket scales (like the $35 American Weigh type) that are used in the jewelery trade are very accurate - they have to be. A tenth of a carat can be $100's of dollars.
BTW - in my own experience, subtle changes in antiskate have a larger effect on sonics than equally subtle changes in VTF. Everyone's different, but I need about two tenths of a gram change in VTF to hear a really significant change, while less than a 1/10 gm. change in A.S. can make a huge difference to me. So part of my reasoning also, is that I don't think I need a scale which is maybe 20 times more sensitive than my ears. |
SirSpeedy, will a gallon of MD 20-20 suffice? Or Boones Farm perhaps?
Opalchip, I have a guage very similar to the one's in your links. The difference here is the the scale we're talking about (assuming the claim is valid) has precision that is a magnitude greater than the range we care about. This extra precision means we are using the scale well within its limits. We know that absolute accuracy isn't as important as repeatability. It also, and most attractive to me, has the feature of weighing VTF very close to the surface height of a record on the platter. I could fabricate a jig as others have done but I'm not sure that it is worth my time to save a few bucks. Though I have no idea what it is, the shipping charge must be fairly hefty if it is coming from Singapore. |
Oops I sent before done. To continue - it doesn't matter AT ALL if the scale is accurate on an absolute basis. All that matters is that its results are nearly identical over multiple passes (repeatable). Because ultimately, if you're going to set up a table really right, the VTF that you measure is only a starting point and later a reference point.
Every cartridge/tonearm/table combo has different characteristics (not to mention interplay between VTF and anti-skate settings), so the manufacturers' VTF recommendation is just a rough estimate which becomes immediately irrelevant. You'll ultimately adjust VTF up and down BY EAR until it SOUNDS AND TRACKS BEST. and then you'll re-measure with the scale to note the result ONLY so you have a reference for when you need to reset the VTF later - e.g., your cartridge suspension has softened up. But that's all - the scale by itself only serves as a somewhat random starting point even if it's accurate to a gazillionth of a gram.
(Nor does it matter, as has been speculated here, whether the arm is in it's exact vertical "playing" position. Do an experiment if you'd like - lift your scale up on top of an old Mariah Carey lp with a couple of quarters and watch how much the VTF changes. Not much - it's a simple vector calculation.) |
Admittedly, $100 isn't a lot of money to worry about for most of us, but why are audiophiles such suckers? For me it's the principle! Why would you want to spend more than this:
http://saveonscales.com/product_jennings_js50x_digital_pocket_scale.html
Or if you want to get really crazy, this:
http://saveonscales.com/product_jennings_digital_diamond_scale_10.html
The "stylus" gauges being marketed to audio people are just relabeled, doubly marked up diamond scales. |
Dan,you owe me a cheap bottle of Chardonnay! |
That big ad on the Acoustic Sounds web page got me spooked so I went ahead and ordered one from Audio Note Singapore. SirSpeedy, seems like you're having pretty good results with yours. It is definitely better than the scale I have. |
Hey Zaikes, click Here to see your next president from the Lone Star State. Or were you referring to Dwight D. Eisenhower? |
"Here where I live, there is an unlimited supply of clowns"
I believe Albert refers to the great state of Texas (I just wish you'd stop exporting them to my area of DC -- we have enough here already! ;^) |
Albert,you are quite good natured to actually loan out your Winds.My pals will bring it,but it goes home with them,for sure.
As to the bag of necessary goods,which goes flying across the vehicle,I hope it does not contain any Early pressing Deccas/EMI/Early Columbia recordings.That surely would be the pity!Those are not replaceable!
Best! |
There are times when friends in my group want to borrow a stylus force gauge. The last time I loaned out my WInds, it was gone for a week and a half.
If this $95.00 unit is good, and I have no reason to believe it will not be, it is the gauge I will loan out.
It's also the gauge I will carry, along with my LP's and tools when I go help friends with TT set up.
Here where I live, there is an unlimited supply of clowns that love to stop in the middle of the freeway for no apparent reason. To avoid a collision, that bag of necessary goods is thrown across the vehicle, stopping against whatever is hard enough to break the fall.
The good news? The WInds will be home in the cabinet where it belongs. |
I had the Cartridge Man guage.The problem with it was that it needed to be recharged often.Not a good thing if you suddenly need to check downforce.Also,I was sceptical of the accuracy after about ten minutes of going back and forth to the table.There was, often,a differing readout.Sorry!Maybe mine was out of wack.
As to you,Albert.Though the 95 dollar guage seems to be a really nice unit,I'd be happy to trade you mine,for your Winds. -:)
We have compared this guage to my friend's Winds guage and found a difference of 6/100's difference.Not really a big thing,and who knows for sure which is most accurate.
The nice thing about the 95 dollar guage(btw-Acoustic Sounds sells it for 185 bucks)is that it immediately tares to zero,so checking downforce is really fast.It seems to be quite consistent too.
I do wish it was a little more robust looking though.The Winds looks like a "Mosler Safe",and I like the heavy duty look,and feel.Yet it can be a pain in the tush to "fotz" around with that little zeroing out dial,to achieve that "blinking zero" reading,which must be had for supposed accuracy.
Still,if I already had the Winds I'd never think of another guage again,unless I was the kind of 'phile who had a really complex,tube laden,and (word on the street,from what I've been told)slightly dark sounding system,that lacked a bit of inner detail. -:)Just kidding!!!
Best! |
Well the best one to go for is The Cartridge Man Digital Stylus Force Gauge, accurate to 0.01g and regarded as the best, but it is pricey. However once you have used one you will never use another. |
Per comments mentioned above. Agreed, it is proper to measure VTF when the arm height is the same as when the stylus is in the groove.
The Clearaudio Exact gauge does have this coveted ability as the measuring platform is quite thin! As such, placing the the Clearaudio gauge on top of a platter and dialing in exact VTF is a simple task. It is a very functional stylus force gauge. |
Update:
I just ordered one of these based on the comments here. I will let you know how it measures against my 1/100ths gram Winds after it arrives.
Even if it's not perfect, once the "correct" weight is determined, the user can repeat that perfect setting anytime.
That's the real value of any stylus force gauge, repeatability in very fine increments. |
I have a Winds and am tempted to buy that $95.00 gauge anyway, before they raise their price.
That is a VERY fine looking stylus gauge for less than $100.00, did you notice they offered free shipping as well? |
CTM,you have to pay closer attention!The first guage(which I have,and like)measures to 1/1000's.The second guage is only measured in 1/10's!This is a big difference in the ability to get the most from a good cartridge!Though the ability to measure to 1/100's is all we really need,so the extra range of guage #1 is a bonus.
Best! |
There appear to be more than one digital gauge in the $90-$100 range. Anyone have a comment on the one shown here:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1149492338
vs. this one:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1151348864 |
The Wally Scale is $150 and comes with the extra fixture to place the stylus on. |
There were some pretty cool pictures in that previous thread which showed how to make a fixture that would insure you would be weighing at the same height as a record surface. All you would need to do is tare to the weight of such a fixture. This fixture along with some of the scales mentioned here would be ideal and save alot compared to the cost of some guages. |
How would they address it except by creating a gauge that allows you to position the reading platform outside of the platter and adjust its height to align with the top of the platter plus a little bit. The $95 gauge reads pretty low to the platter surface, but is still raised a bit.
But again, relative readings matter more than absolute ones for the purpose of finding what's best in your setup and being able to get back to that place should things change. |
