On a thread that is a running example of the textual equivalent of nonstop cat videos. So here it is again.
I could understand the cables are snake-oil doubters and take them seriously- in 1980. Back then there was no internet, Stereo Review was pretty much it, and Julian Hirsch was the Oracle of all things audio. Stereo Review and Julian Hirsch said if it measures the same it sounds the same. Wire is wire, and that was that.
Even then though J. Gordon Holt had already started the movement that was to become Stereophile. JGH took the opposing view that our listening experience is what counts. Its nice if you can measure it but if you can’t that’s your problem not ours.
Stereo Review and the measurers owned the market back then. The market gave us amplifier wars, as manufacturers competed for ever more power with ever lower distortion. For years this went on, until one day "measures great sounds bad" became a thing.
Could be some here besides me lived through and remember this. If you did, and if you were reading JGH back then, I tip my hat to you, sir! I fell prey to Hirsch and his siren song that you can have it all for cheap and don’t really have to learn to listen. Talk about snake-oil! A lot of us bought into it. Sorry to say.
But anyway like I was saying it was easy to believe the lie back then because it was so prevalent and also because what wire there was that sounded better didn’t really sound a whole lot better.
Now though even budget wire sounds so much better than what comes off a reel you’d have to be deaf not to notice. Really good wires sound so good you’d notice even if you ARE deaf! No kidding. My aunt Bessie was deaf as a stone but she could FEEL the sound at a high enough volume, knew it was music. The dynamic punch of my CTS cables is so much greater than ordinary 14 ga wire I would bet my deaf from birth aunt Bessie could "hear" the difference. Certain so-called audiophiles here, I'm not so sure.
Oh and not done beating the dead horse quite yet, according to my calendar its 2020, a solid 40 years past 1980. Stereo Review is dead and buried. Stereophile lives on. A whole multi-billion dollar industry built on wire not being wire thrives. Maybe the measurement people can chalk up and quantify from that just how many years, and billions, they are out of date and in denial.
The best book on stupidity ever written is by an italian economist, Carlo Cipolla, and it is a free book in the web...
Nothing is more spot on....
WIKIPEDIA:
These are Cipolla’s five fundamental laws of stupidity:
Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
The probability that a certain person (will) be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.
I will add that the heart of the matter is Rule 3.... To meditate...With a mirror in hand.... :) After that ,except of yourself, try to identify someone very well known or not, that is stupid most of the times and not only in passing like you and me...For so doing replace the mirror with a TV set....
Very interesting exercise, first with a mirror, and then with a TV set.... :)
For sure we can use any thread here instead of a TV set....
I’m glad you get off on Zen and the Art of Debunkery. I figured it would trigger you. After all, it’s about people like you, pseudo scientists. 🤗 More coming soon, get ready, robberrttddidd, robberrttccann, whoever...
You can’t debunk something that’s not bunk. - old audiophile axiom
Intro to main section of Zen and the Art of Debunkery (yes, I know what you’re thinking, gentle readers, OMG it sounds just like he’s describing robberrttddidd, robberrttccann, whatever his name is) 😀
What is “debunkery?” Essentially it is the attempt to debunk (invalidate) new fields of discovery by substituting scientistic rhetoric for scientific inquiry.
While informed skepticism is an integral part of the scientific method, professional debunkers — often called “kneejerk skeptics” — tend to be skeptics in name only, and to speak with little or no authority on the subject matter of which they are so passionately skeptical. At best, debunkers will occasionally expose other people’s errors; but for the most part they purvey their own brand of pseudoscience, fall prey to their own superstition and gullibility, and contribute little to the actual advancement of knowledge. As such, they well and truly represent the Right Wing of science.
To throw this reprobate behavior into bold — if somewhat comic — relief, I have composed a useful “how-to” guide for aspiring debunkers. This manual includes special sections devoted to debunking extraterrestrial intelligence, alternative healing methods, astrology and “free energy.” I spotlight these fields not because I necessarily support all related claims, but because they are among the most aggressively and thoughtlessly debunked subjects in the whole of modern history.
"I understand he is still in denial that CD players can work perfectly in a car, without any noticeable issue, on rough roads, and have been doing so, at low cost, since the early 90s. What quantum magic is this?"
That is a good question. I am still amazed how well CD players work in cars. Even without ESP, they barely ever skip. Close to never.
I never said any such thing, this is just another case of Robberrttddidd forgetting who said what and what thread he’s on. Shock in cars is ameliorated by buffering the data, everybody and his brother knows that. Now robberrttddidd is stumped, he’s trying to remember the conversation. I can see those little wheels spinning around. Glubson is thinking, gee, maybe I shouldn’t have opened my big mouth so fast.
You still don’t get - better go back and find the original discussion.youre putting words in my mouth I didn’t say. Buffering doesn’t eliminate the problems with scattered laser light or vibration, only shock. Stay in school! Also eat more fish, your memory is shot.
Nope, I knew from reading exactly what you have said, and hence I knew, based on your ego, that if I posted the right thing, you would say exactly what I wanted you to say.
I never said any such thing, this is just another case of Robberrttddidd forgetting who said what and what thread he’s on.
Sorry Pebbles, but it does, because there are numerous industry papers out there that show that first and second level error correction will fix every single data error on almost every CD, and if you read the data well enough to fix the errors, and you can buffer the data (really inexpensively), to fix the jitter, then you have no argument left. Only those blinded by scattered light that does will try to ingore that fact. Call me all the names you want, ad-hom glupson to the cows come home, and kick and scream, but YOU, yes you just debunked yourself.
geoffkait23,325 posts07-07-2020 5:24pmYou still don’t get - better go back and find the original discussion. Buffering doesn’t eliminate the problems with scattered laser light or vibration, only shock. Stay in school!
Are you on something? Your memory is shot. You’re also a big fat liar. Numerous industry papers out there? That is so funny. 😂 Are you high on something?
"Shock in cars is ameliorated by buffering the data, everybody and his brother knows that. "
Ok, guys. I do not know much about intricacies of CD reproduction, but have had a car and a CD player.
Some car CD players were advertised as having ESP or some sort of it. A buffer of sorts. When same brand had different models, those higher ones were advertised as having an advantage because of ESP.
Relatively early, I tried comparing such models and those without ESP did skip more over proper potholes.
At some point, I was looking for a CD player for a car and was to skip a certain model because it did not have ESP. Salesperson said I should have not been worried as isolation, or whatever, was improved enough in then-newer models that I would not notice the difference between ESP and non-ESP. He was right. I managed to make that particular CD player skip on purpose. One bump, a proper one, and not a series of them as would be needed for ESP. Without that deliberate insult, the thing skips once a decade, I think. Which is quite a feat.
No, geoffkait, you are not right and if you followed my advice and have known when to stop you would have not assumed I wished I had shut my mouth.
You’re not following, glubson. Not a wise move on your part, as usual. If buffering solved the sound quality issues with home audio I have been talking about lo these many months they would have implemented buffers in expensive CD players a long time ago. Sure it sounds OK to you, you don’t know the difference.
You are not following. I am not commenting on sound quality of car CD players, which is very good indeed, but on your erroneous statement ridiculing me...
"Shock in cars is ameliorated by buffering the data, everybody and his brother knows that. "
It seems that everybody but your brother's brother knows it is far from always being true.
They did implement buffers in expensive CD players a long time ago. Oh my did you not know this? All this time you were telling people about problems that didn’t exist at least in this community. Oh my my my ... egg on the face. Ouch. Before I got bored of electronics in the early 90's I even worked on one. It wasn't even by today's standards very high end. tsk tsk, so out of date with your information.
However, to Glupson's point, if they can build a CD player good enough to isolate a car, rather inexpensively, makes one wonder about all the claims sellers of tweaks make huh?
My experience is that you do not need a buffer in the car CD player, at least from late 1990s.
At the same time, that discussion is, in practice, a little outdated. SD cards, USB jump drives, etc, have made car CD players all but obsolete. And they sound just fine.
"... if they can build a CD player good enough to isolate a car, rather inexpensively,"
I suspect that whole "upgraded" mechanism/isolation cost pennies to produce. Maybe it was not even that complicated. I do not know either of those for a fact. However, whole 6-CD changer was $300. Not to mention that I bought it in the dealership so aftermarket would have been even less. Adjusting for inflation, it would be what? $500 today? Without taking into consideration that prices of such electronics did fall. It really makes you wonder about expensive slabs of wood sold as fancy isolation platforms.
The ESP (Extended Skip Protection) if I remember correctly was about a $8-10 solution at OEM quantities when it first came out. We spent about $25 but had a lot more budget to play with and did some other things in a low end DSP.
Just to clarify for those who or either slow or pretending to be slow buffering the data doesn’t prevent all errors any more than Reed Solomon error codes do. When the data is buffered it still contains the errors that occur right when the laser reads the data. Either the industry is unaware of these issues with CD players, or they chose to ignore them. Take your pick. If you don’t remember these conversations keep a log, eat more fish.
Sorry Mr. Pebbles, but what you have stated is an out and out lie. That is right. You are lying. This is a really easy test, as many PC based readers will give you the C1 and C2 and uncorrectable C2 error rate. If there are no uncorrected C2 errors, then all you blathering and rambling is meaningless. Typical manufactured CDs have only a couple uncorrectable C2 errors on the CD, and it takes larger scratches to create more.
All your mumblings about scattered light, wobble, is just meaningless deflection in the face of real data, i.e. uncorrectable C2 errors. You claim to be a scientist, or physicist or something. Show us your data.
No data, very easily collected to support your hypothesis Mr. Pebbles. Very much noted yet again. Your silence is louder than any hypothesis you may preach.
Have you ever wondered why so many CDs sound thin, metallic, dynamically compressed, bland, generic, congealed, uninvolving, whimpy, electronic, analytical, two dimensional, lifeless, distorted, sour, synthetic, rolled off, thuddy, strident, and like paper mache? All of that is about to change.
New Dark Matter NDM, the newest product from Machina Dynamica, is the only audio product that absorbs both visible scattered laser light and invisible scattered light in CD players, thereby improving optical signal to noise ratio, thus improving sound quality. The CD laser nominal wavelength is 780 nm, which is about 80 nm longer than the longest visible red wavelength, 700 nm. The laser is not monochromatic but has an effective wavelength range of around 650-850 nm. This means most of the laser light, and scattered light, is INVISIBLE. The portion of the laser light below 700 nm is visible red, presumably as a safety feature.
The scattering of the laser light occurs when the laser beam strikes the physical nanoscale data on the CD. Then, scattered light reflects off surfaces inside the CD transport container, lighting up the interior like a Christmas tree. The Green Pen and other similar audiophile products (including our own Codename Turquoise tray treatment) affect the sound because they absorb scattered visible RED light. But most of the scattered light - around 75% - is INVISIBLE and not amenable to absorption by ANY color, including green, turquoise, or even black.
"New Dark Matter NDM, the newest product from Machina Dynamica, is the only audio product that absorbs both visible scattered laser light and invisible scattered light in CD players, thereby improving optical signal to noise ratio, thus improving sound quality."
You are amassing a sizeable work of complete misleading pseudo scientific nonsense of the worst kind in support of your business endeavours.
So many misleading, unfounded and unsupportable statements in one sentence.
A new high. Well done Mr P.
I look forward to reading the glowing testimonials that must surely follow. Don't keep us waiting.
Any evidence on a good quality audiophile transport that your "devices" result in a reduction in uncorrectable C2 errors. Heck, you could start with a basic computer CD ripper (1x speed of course). It is rather shocking you don't have this already. Ideally the tests would be done by a 3rd party. It is not like you have the most trustworthy reputation.
geoffkait23,349 posts07-08-2020 8:50amAn innocent question: what evidence can change the mind of a Pseudo Skeptic? Answer at 11.
Do you just make these things up? Laser Diodes are highly monochromatic. Cheap diodes in a CD player will have all their spectrum +/- 3nm. These are not LEDs (which are still more monochromatic).
The laser is not monochromatic but has an effective wavelength range of around 650-850 nm.
"But most of the scattered light - around 75% - is INVISIBLE
and not amenable to absorption by ANY color, including green,
turquoise, or even black."
It seems this is an advertisement for a product that claims to do what advertisement says it cannot do. What the heck?
Unfortunately, or is that fortunately, the statement is either wilfully or ignorantly incorrect. While orange may be the new black on TV, black is still black, and the most common black pigment is carbon black, which absorbs just fine, great actually at 780nm (and what would be used for the typically black plastic interiors).
It apparently doesn’t take very much to trigger roberttdid. Anything he’s never heard of before seems to do just fine. 😳 I say black he says white. So predictable. Long words like monochromatic throw him into a tizzy. 🤪 Don’t have an aneurism.
I don’t get angry, I get even. Try spending some time in a library, robberrttddidd, maybe you wouldn’t appear to be so ignorant. ta ta for now... 🤗 I don’t see any counter arguments, only lame personal attacks. Where’s the beef, dude? 🍔
If that’s all you got I have bad news for you. You’re officially out of ammo. Come back when you’re able to actually debate a subject as opposed to running your mouth.
I remember back in the late 1970's, when I was a salesman at a high-end store in DC, having lots of visits from a guy who said he was just "kicking tires", not to bother us sales people. On one of my slow days I struck up a conversation and he said he was just "perplexed" how the specs on much of the equipment in our stores was much "worse" than the modestly priced equipment he had at home. I didn't engage him in one of my long-winded explanations as to why I thought that might have been. Long-story-short, he ended up spending a "pretty penny" with me and for a few years, sent me thank you's in his Christmas cards!
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