geoff, if it is .... you sure ain't The Ringer!!
Too good a post to waste
On a thread that is a running example of the textual equivalent of nonstop cat videos. So here it is again.
I could understand the cables are snake-oil doubters and take them seriously- in 1980. Back then there was no internet, Stereo Review was pretty much it, and Julian Hirsch was the Oracle of all things audio. Stereo Review and Julian Hirsch said if it measures the same it sounds the same. Wire is wire, and that was that.
Even then though J. Gordon Holt had already started the movement that was to become Stereophile. JGH took the opposing view that our listening experience is what counts. Its nice if you can measure it but if you can’t that’s your problem not ours.
Stereo Review and the measurers owned the market back then. The market gave us amplifier wars, as manufacturers competed for ever more power with ever lower distortion. For years this went on, until one day "measures great sounds bad" became a thing.
Could be some here besides me lived through and remember this. If you did, and if you were reading JGH back then, I tip my hat to you, sir! I fell prey to Hirsch and his siren song that you can have it all for cheap and don’t really have to learn to listen. Talk about snake-oil! A lot of us bought into it. Sorry to say.
But anyway like I was saying it was easy to believe the lie back then because it was so prevalent and also because what wire there was that sounded better didn’t really sound a whole lot better.
Now though even budget wire sounds so much better than what comes off a reel you’d have to be deaf not to notice. Really good wires sound so good you’d notice even if you ARE deaf! No kidding. My aunt Bessie was deaf as a stone but she could FEEL the sound at a high enough volume, knew it was music. The dynamic punch of my CTS cables is so much greater than ordinary 14 ga wire I would bet my deaf from birth aunt Bessie could "hear" the difference. Certain so-called audiophiles here, I'm not so sure.
Oh and not done beating the dead horse quite yet, according to my calendar its 2020, a solid 40 years past 1980. Stereo Review is dead and buried. Stereophile lives on. A whole multi-billion dollar industry built on wire not being wire thrives. Maybe the measurement people can chalk up and quantify from that just how many years, and billions, they are out of date and in denial.
I could understand the cables are snake-oil doubters and take them seriously- in 1980. Back then there was no internet, Stereo Review was pretty much it, and Julian Hirsch was the Oracle of all things audio. Stereo Review and Julian Hirsch said if it measures the same it sounds the same. Wire is wire, and that was that.
Even then though J. Gordon Holt had already started the movement that was to become Stereophile. JGH took the opposing view that our listening experience is what counts. Its nice if you can measure it but if you can’t that’s your problem not ours.
Stereo Review and the measurers owned the market back then. The market gave us amplifier wars, as manufacturers competed for ever more power with ever lower distortion. For years this went on, until one day "measures great sounds bad" became a thing.
Could be some here besides me lived through and remember this. If you did, and if you were reading JGH back then, I tip my hat to you, sir! I fell prey to Hirsch and his siren song that you can have it all for cheap and don’t really have to learn to listen. Talk about snake-oil! A lot of us bought into it. Sorry to say.
But anyway like I was saying it was easy to believe the lie back then because it was so prevalent and also because what wire there was that sounded better didn’t really sound a whole lot better.
Now though even budget wire sounds so much better than what comes off a reel you’d have to be deaf not to notice. Really good wires sound so good you’d notice even if you ARE deaf! No kidding. My aunt Bessie was deaf as a stone but she could FEEL the sound at a high enough volume, knew it was music. The dynamic punch of my CTS cables is so much greater than ordinary 14 ga wire I would bet my deaf from birth aunt Bessie could "hear" the difference. Certain so-called audiophiles here, I'm not so sure.
Oh and not done beating the dead horse quite yet, according to my calendar its 2020, a solid 40 years past 1980. Stereo Review is dead and buried. Stereophile lives on. A whole multi-billion dollar industry built on wire not being wire thrives. Maybe the measurement people can chalk up and quantify from that just how many years, and billions, they are out of date and in denial.
324 responses Add your response
geoff is jealous of those who attended public schools. You see, the school he went to, he had to break big rocks into small ones. Actually that's where he got the idea for his little pebbles. But what he's really angry about, is he's the only attendee that never got a new sledgehammer for Christmas. 😄 |
That makes us even since I never expect anything from you, U. And I’m never disappointed. Probably a huge failure of public school system. I have no idea why you even try to tangle with me, it must because you enjoy being kicked in the head, which if you don’t mind my saying so too much happened one too many times. 🤕 |
Of course it is is possible that the same cable in two different systems COULD yield similar results, I do not believe anyone said that was not possible. Just not very likely unless all the components from both systems are similar in capacitance , impedance etc for the same functionality . With the vast profusion of equipment out there from many varied manufacturer Inc home brewed even, I would hazard a guess most unlikely. |
Whoever would like to argue about his statements, could you please keep it on the same level of writing skill?almarg: Here are some examples of how a sonic comparison between two cables can yield exactly opposite (or at least very different) results depending on the specific application:The statement is "here are some examples of how a sonic comparison between two cables CAN yield exactly opposite (or at least very different) results"... "Can" means might, may, could. "Can" does not mean "does". Thus everything that follows is at best probability and imagination. This is meant as an argument to refute my argument which is, in a word, "does". You simply cannot refute "does" with might. The refutation of "does" is "does not". It is highly ironic that such illogic immediately follows a post on the 10 logical fallacies. It is fully accepted no one has bothered to watch the video- or if they have, to have not learned a single one of its lessons. For proof I offer the preceding posts. There ya go gluppo, and brevity is the soul of wit. Read it and weep. |
And thanks to Almarg for putting into words so eloquently what a lot of us KNOW by ear and experience. The same cable in two different systems with differing components WILL sound different, sometimes shockingly so! Reviews of cable can be usefull but until you try them in your own system you are just never going to know. So companies like The Cable Co with their lending program are very usefull in this situation. Good luck to all, stay safe and Happy 4th of July if that is possible in these uncertain times. |
As I’ve oft opined, all things being equal - I.e., for the 🔜 exact same cable 🔙 - the one with the WHITE jacket will sound better than the one with a BLACK jacket. Anyone who believes cables all sound the same or that L, R and C and even length are the only parameters that count, that determine SQ, has only skimmed the surface or has not advanced past Base Camp ⛺️ It’s not all black and white. 🐄 Suspending the cables, using contact enhancers, exotic cable wraps, colored cable ties, etc., all the tricks of the trade, you know, the ones advanced audiophiles keep secret from the average Joe Blow. It’s very hush hush, we keep in close to the vest. It’s a weird trip if you can handle it. 🤗 |
A cable forms part of an electronic circuit, together with the output stage of the component providing the signal, the input stage of the component receiving the signal, and potentially with a lot of other circuitry in those components as a result of the cable’s effects on the ground connection. As with any electronic part within a component the sonic effects of the cable depend not only on its intrinsic characteristics, but on the interaction of those characteristics with the surrounding circuitry. Here are some examples of how a sonic comparison between two cables can yield exactly opposite (or at least very different) results depending on the specific application: 1) If an interconnect having relatively high capacitance is compared with one having relatively low capacitance, and if everything else is equal, the higher capacitance cable will produce a duller and more sluggish response in the upper treble region if used as a line-level interconnect while being driven by a component having high output impedance, due to the interaction of cable capacitance and component output impedance. That interaction essentially resulting in a low pass filter, with rolloff and phase shifts potentially occurring at audible frequencies depending on the specific capacitance and the specific output impedance. While the **exact opposite sonic result will occur** if those same two cables are compared in a phono cable application while being driven by a moving magnet cartridge, due to the interaction of cable capacitance and cartridge inductance. The result in that case being a frequency response **peak** in the upper treble region. 2) Since the impedance presented by an inductance is proportional to frequency a speaker having high impedance at high frequencies, such as many and probably most dynamic speakers, will be relatively insensitive to the inductance of a speaker cable. While speakers having low impedance at high frequencies, such as most electrostatics, will be far more likely to be sensitive to it. That has no particular relation, by the way, to the sound quality or musical resolution of the speakers; it just relates to their sensitivity to cable differences. 3) It is easily possible for digital cable "A" to outperform digital cable "B" in a given system when both cables are of a certain length, and for cable "B" to outperform cable "A" even in that same system if both cables are of some other length. That may result from differences in the arrival time at the receiving component of signal reflections which occur at the RF frequency components that are present in digital audio signals as a result of less than perfect impedance matches, as well as cable-related differences in ground loop-related noise that may be riding on the signal, both of which can contribute to timing jitter at the point of D/A conversion. The happenstance of the relationships between cable length, signal risetimes and falltimes, cable propagation velocity, component susceptibility to ground loop-related noise, the happenstance of how closely the impedances of both components and the cable match, and the jitter rejection capability of the DAC, all figure into that. A great many anecdotal reports that have been provided here and elsewhere over the years, in which digital cable performance has been reported as having been found to be length-sensitive, support that conclusion. Regards, -- Al |
This may be a difficult concept, but if the wire sounds the same on every system, then you are essentially saying wire doesn't matter. The number of logical fallacies in just this one statement is simply amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IawIjqOJBU8 |
| Post removed |
I lost all interest in the different types of speaker cable after reading a Stereophile magazine article (mid - 80s) comparing generic hardware store wire at (I think) 10 cents a foot with a higher quality (also generic lamp-cord) at ~39 cents and both of them with 'audiophile' cable at double-digit $s per foot (oh those days of innocence :-). Each had its pluses and minuses, and the golden-eared reviewer called them out . To me, the fact that there was even a comparison showed that the audiophile product was silly. If you can cable your speakers for a few hundred bucks, you expect it to be unequivocally better than if you spent $9.99;; if you need to analyze it, you wasted your money. Today, I just buy heavy gauge wire and use it for speaker cable... G |
This may be a difficult concept, but if the wire sounds the same on every system, then you are essentially saying wire doesn't matter. millercarbon OP5,046 posts07-02-2020 9:07pmActually no, they sound the same regardless of what they're plugged into. |
| Post removed |
Notice he doesn't deny any of it. No system.And still can't find even one constructive comment in any of his 23k posts. Interesting. |
millercarbon, is it true when you lie your pants really are on fire? 👖🔥 I don’t blame you for feelings of inferiority since your degree is from 4H Club. 🐄🍀 Apparently all you have to do around here is utter the word pseudo-scientist and millercarbon shows up. It’s uncanny! Maybe I really do have ESP. 😳 |
Never has one person made so many posts that have so little useful information in them and so rarely contribute to the conversation. DYODD: No system. No degree. No knowledge. MachinaDynamica. The one person who claims to have met him at a show said he enjoys making fun of audiophiles because.... they love audio. If you can find one constructive comment in 23k posts, please provide a link. |
Never has one person made so many posts that have so little useful information in them and so rarely contribute to the conversation. I really have to applaud the enthusiasm you apply to your inanity. I must say I do appreciate the hypocrisy of those that go gaga over contact enhancer while dismissing dirty contacts. I must be extra special going through life without ever experiencing self reflection. |
Dirty contacts? Yeah, right! Geez, what other ridiculous claims will these pseudo skeptics make? It would actually make more sense to claim the cables were backwards. https://youtu.be/w3sLzmmejCA |
