Hey, I've got to laugh at myself. These threads on are so damn long, that I said just about the same thing 6 weeks ago, thinking it was a different thread. Got's to laugh. It's a beautiful day here. carpe diem my fellow audiophools. warren |
Fbhifi you are correct. The points on a Sistrum rack are with the point side up, facing the bottom of the equipment. The point itself is is directly coupled to a much larger tuned Sistrum collection device, namely the shelf. The shelf if it where simply a solid rectangular piece of metal, wood or resin would not act as a resonance collection device. Shelves as discribed would act much like any other branded shelf namely to dampen and store. The Audiopoint in this application is only effective when mounted to the Sistrum shelf. It works like mechanical amplifier/megaphone, when mounted to the much larger Sistrum shelf.. If the point where mounted upside down directly to a much larger mass such as Earth the Audiopoint would be rendered totally ineffecvtive. Tom |
Theaudiotweak- You state that "The point was designed to be an exit point only, it is not a re entry point." How then can it function as a re-entry point when attached to the shelf on the Sistrum rack ? It appears that it is not actually a "... one way in, one way out purposeful design..." How do you explain this obvious contradiction ? |
Fbhifi, you need to understand Voodoo magic. If you use the point down it is a "one way drain". Flip it and it becomes a "megaphone"... |
I posted quite a bit about energy transfer and cone points over in AA about two years ago. Jonathan Scull compiled some of these posts and assembled parts of them into what became the majority of his February 2001 "Fine Tunes" column. Bare in mind that much of what i wrote was based on "logic" and "common sense" / "hands on experience" as i am not a physicist. So as not to confuse anyone out there, i don't play a physicist on tv either : )
Having said that, those that do understand physics have informed me that mechanical energy that can be passed from one device in one direction can in turn be fed back in the reverse direction. While i do not doubt this as the two points are obviously in contact with each other, i have to question if the level of energy transfer occurs at the same rate in both directions ? My thoughts are that a cone does act as somewhat of a "mechanical diode" ( a "diode" is an electronic version of a "one way valve" ) and the effectiveness of the "diode action" will depend on the shape, materials used and the mass of the devices. That is why there are SO many variations on cone shape, size, material, etc... and why some seem to work better than others in specific situations. I've never seen any studies on this subject but would love to. If anyone knows of any, please turn us onto them.
I am also of the belief that one can't "survive" or "fine tune" an audio system optimally by using one specific method ( isolation, coupling, mass loading, absorption, etc...) by itself. In my experience, some components respond to a combination of the above, whereas others might work best using only one method. Obviously, this will vary with the specific type of support structure / rack / shelf being used. What i found to work best with one type of rack failed miserably with another type of rack. One would only know this though if they had actually tried several different racks and tried various tweaks on each of those racks. I did this very thing and could not believe some of the differences that i heard in the process.
Personally, if i could, i would build an open structured rack(s) out of wood using as little metal as possible in the actual construction of the rack. I think that this type of rack sounds best. Obviously, one could play around with various types of wood used, how the shelves were suspended or anchored, etc... Personally, i do NOT like having the shelves anchored and / or part of the support structure of the rack. What someone else prefers from a structural vantage point or sonic preference might be very different though.
Having said that, i don't have all wooden racks as i could not achieve the versatility that i was looking for in such a design. As such, i had to deal with the fact that what i wanted would compromise the sonics to some degree. Such is life. With that in mind, I took an existing design ( Premier ) and manipulated it to fit my needs / desires as best possible. I did this because i could not find any commercial design that met all of the criteria that i set forth when shopping for racks. With the help of a few knowledgeable folks, i arrived at something that is both versatile enough to keep me happy AND is suitable to my sonic preferences. I am still experimenting and learning, but that is the great part about "tweaking" i.e. you can do as much or as little as you desire or can afford.
With that in mind, i hope that i have not discouraged anyone from buying / trying ANY product that interests them. Obviously, this includes the Sistrum's or other similar products. Learning via first hand experience is a great thing and taking the desire away from someone to do so is disgraceful. As such, i apologize and would like to encourage all of you to experiment with as many variables as you can within your system(s)and come to your own conclusions about what works best. If you end up thinking i'm a quack regarding some of my suggestions / comments, so be it. You'll never know what you like best until you try things out for yourself though.
Once again, i do apologize to those that i've offended / stepped on their toes in this thread. Sean
>
|
Only Voodoo to those who see earth and physical science as such. The same laws apply today as those of 400 years ago. It is all in your physics books of yorn. Wake up and actually turn the page, butt read it first. The science is there in the product.. If you do not believe it and you did not try it, well I guess ya missed out!.. Tom... PS coupling and dampening in combo are counter productive. |
Audiotweak, you're the one who has contradicted himself: "The geometry of the Audiopoint was designed as follows: The flat surface and or the shaft are collection areas. The tip is the exit point. The point was designed to be an exit point only, it is not a re entry point. The tip of the point is therefor a coupling point. This one way in, one way out purposeful design makes the Audiopoint the..."
"The Audiopoint in this application is only effective when mounted to the Sistrum shelf. It works like mechanical amplifier/megaphone, when mounted to the much larger Sistrum shelf.. If the point where mounted upside down directly to a much larger mass such as Earth the Audiopoint would be rendered totally ineffecvtive. Tom" ******* I did try some of Lak's Audiopoints, as posted earlier. They work. How much and if cost effective, I have to use them in house for a while... ******* I do have a Psychic friend of mine back in the Caribbean. Her name is Milvia (aka Mystic Lady). She's really good with magnets, crystals, Chinese metaphysics and reading the Santería cards. I learned quite a bit from her. I'm sure you could send her some Audiopoints and she would *align them* for a fee... Guess what, my mother is even a better Psychic--she's an herbalist and reads Spanish cards... |
Theaudiotweak: In an effort to keep this thread constructive, informative and focused on audio related issues- not personal- would you kindly comment on my 3/17 question to you. I will take the lack of any comment from you to be a concession that the contradiction I point out is irrefutable. |
Audiotweak: I guess if you are a person that believes that science can explain everything and man knows all that there is to know, life becomes a lot simpler. You don't have to worry about any new discoveries or scientific breakthroughs ever popping up. As such, the Earth is flat. On top of that, the Earth is the center of the universe. As we all know, these statements were all taught as "fact" at some point in time. I'm sure that "scientists" back then used the same logic when making such statements i.e. "we've known this to be true for hundreds of years"....
Thank God for those that take the time to experiment, march to the beat of a different drummer and have ideas that fly in the face of convention. Life would be pretty boring living in caves and grunting to communicate.
Personally, i think that man knows just enough to be dangerous, both to himself and the planet. Only time will tell if i'm wrong or right. Sean
> |
Fransisco and FBhifi, if you want explanations of the technical performance of this product, why don't you contact the manufacturer and ask them? Attempting to draw conclusions of the performance of this product, based upon others' ability(or inability) to describe it, is nothing. If you don't like the idea or don't want to buy it, then don't. Attempting to create strife here by needling people about some complex scientific issue is not productive. If you really want to know, then call the people who know. If you don't do that, then I can only conclude that you have some underlying agenda at play, and I don't want that in MY thread. |
Psychicanimal, does your grandmother have any experience with phrenology? I'm a coupler. Some of you are decouplers. Sistrum: we know where they stand. Mixing the two, however, is kind of like buying beauiful leather furniture, and putting plastic slip covers over them. One nullifies the inherent characteristics of the other. If you're a coupler: stay true to that, and get rid of your absorbing, ruinous, little, resonance blockers. If you're a decoupler? Hey, I don't care where you go. Have fun though. peace, warren |
TWL: My ONLY reason to be spending my time on this thread is because I'm interested in purchasing a rack better than the one I already have. In order to not throw one's audio dollars away on a rack which yields little or no improvement, or possibly is WORSE than what one already has, some research into the new products available in the marketplace must take place. These forums CAN be valuable, because objective opinions from helpful fellow Agoners can usually be distilled from the gang fighting and grudge matches taking place alongside them. If a member chooses to tackle complex technical issues, that's fine. He, or she, may or may not be qualified to make the statements that they do. But if they do make a technical statement- they should have the courage to defend their contentions in the face of logical, in fact in this case- obvious, arguments against their initial position. Most importantly-after it's all said and done- I will decide if, possibly, any constructive information was forthcoming. This information, if any, will be used as the 1st step in gathering technical data- not the last and definitive decision making device. In regard to contacting the manufacurer with ones questions- I agree that that can be productive, but only when armed with some amount of general, current, product knowledge. Otherwise you risk repeating the disturbing exercise of going to a car dealer for the 1st time to purchase your 1st car. Stated another way- If you have a SOME general product knowledge you will be better qualified to divine some reliable information when you ask the Ford dealer how his Explorer compares to Chevy's Tahoe. |
Gentlemen I feel I have tried to answer your inquiries as accurately as possible and with all of my personal integrity. I have stated many times before that I have used Audiopoints and Sistrum for almost ten years. It is and will continue to be my personal felling that these are the finest products available in there respective catogory. The controversy I feel can be answered by going to the Starsound web page and read the science presented for yourselves. Let me state that the Sistrum and the Audiopoint are two different devices. The Audiopoint is only a minor part of the actual device know as the Sistrum. I suppose the explanation is beyond my ability to geometrically as well as verbally articulate. Like I said I believe in and can demonstrate in my own personal system what I feel are huge sonic improvements with the use of Sistrum Science. My sincere apologies for trying to describe and failing to deliver the full 100% scope of the engineering behind these complex shapes..Tom |
Starsound Technologies will refund your money if you're not happy with their products. Infact they give you 30 days to find your happiness. Whattaya got to lose? Shipping? Small piece of change, given the cost over 30 days listening. The Sistrum Systems have delivered. I'm coupled to the EARTH, and very happy. peace, warren
P.S. Let's see: The original thread started in January. Will it be too long, come July? It's too long already. Just listen to these ( Sistrum) babies. You'll be freed.... |
TWL, I posted why I came in here: Lak asked me to check out the Sistrum and also to call the owner. I told him calling him would be pointless, as I would be bombarded with useful information interspersed by a sales pitch. I think the Sistrum does one thing right and that is an advantage over an attempt at doing several and not a single one right. I still do not know how much it costs, so that bias has not been introduced in my brain...
I told Lak that I think he would be better off with Jahaira's design. I find it way superior and more flexible in terms of how to address individual components. With this design one can choose to couple, decouple or use *resistive damping* of individual components. The rack is coupled by means of heavy stainless steel rods with spikes and bolted Brazilian Cedar plywood boards (12 ply) that have a routered rectangular cavity. It is a heavy rack and extremely rigid by all means. The combination of granite slabs, cork/rubber sheets and cones/DIYumas and or Moca wood will allow each individual component to be properly tuned. You could even use Neuance shelves, graphite boards, anything!
Warren, I had to look up that phrenology word. No, my grandmothers did not know that. I learned a few things related to metaphysics and the use of quartz crystals, and Central American Indian "reiki". Never messed with the bad stuff...don't want to go to hell! A lot of this stuff has to do with how we are in tune with ourselves and the environment. An analogy would be that our lives develop a *vector* in the metaphysical realm, much like what the Hindus call Karma; that vector gives our lives a momentum that is sometimes not good. That's why some people go to Psychics like my friend Milvia. I have this very very clear. Milvia's mother told me one day: "We pull them out of the cesspool and they jump right back in..." |
It would have been beneficial to just ask sistrum for their technical explanation, post the exp. here, and analyze it. At least you'd be on the same page, ummm, or closer to the same page. But I get the drift that you all maybe a little too tired for that now. Nice back-and-forth, it has been interesting.
With all due respect, Twl, starting this thread doesn't make it your thread. |
Psychicanimal - try the product or start a new thread on the benefits of Ikea-based, brazilian wood racks. Unless you try it, your comments railing against the Sistrum product are theoretically-based, and dont reflect what MY ears hear. I really like it. I'm sure there are other solutions, but I REALLY like this one.
Say whatever you like, unless you try it, you'll never, ever know and might as well be recommending electrostatic speakers over dynamic speakers based on their specs alone...and I'm sure you were as amazed as I was when I heard just how different they are. Try it, try it, try it... |
True, threads are not owned. They take on a life of their own, sometimes, owing nothing to the original. That's the problem, for me, when it's "my" original post. I love the Sistrum products, and I base my comments on actual listening experiences. There are those who rail on, adnauseam, from nothing other than the theoretical. The ole tympanics are the test. I have yet to hear experiences, from other audiophools, where the Sistrum products were returned because they did not deliver. Let's put this baby to bed. I am...peace, warren |
Reading comprehension problems, once more... 1) I have not "railed" against the Sistrum: This is not to say that the Systrum is not a step in the right direction. It is a step in the right direction. Whether it's worth the money is another story. Can I make something better looking and better performing for less? Ask a psychic!
I think the Sistrum does one thing right and that is an advantage over an attempt at doing several and not a single one right. I still do not know how much it costs, so that bias has not been introduced in my brain... 2) I have posted that floor standing racks are not practical in my new place: In the dedicated listening room I'm about to set up, any floor standing rack is out of the question, BTW. 3) Jahaira's rack is not based on IKEA Lack tables--you go back and read again. 4) Now that you asked, Leftie, I will say that the Systrum has a very strong marketing component behind it, indeed. It caters to people like Lakit suits his system, most definitely. It would look really corny with my rig. It would not be able to properly support my two Clear Image T4 transformer based filter arrays nor my modded 1200 TT and would be a waste of money, using single shelves for all the outboard power supplies I have and little Channel Islands DAC I use. People like me have lots of stuff--big and small--lying around
|
Hmm, this looks like a Sistrum:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=1769 |
Well I wasn't wowed by the audio racks, but the other pix on that site were pretty awesome! |
Those appear to be direct coupled devices that transfer the textural feel of the visual reality rather than the overdamped silicone type that mask and compensate for thinness and lack of body. |
There is hope!
This is proof of what a *friendly* reminder that not everything is audio can do... |
Wow! Almost two months has has gone by since the last post on this controversial , emotional and finally, I am so glad , humorous thread, originated by Twl. I am digging this original thread up because of a lazy man's implementation of a not so recent product update. I am the lazy man... Some three years ago I purchased what I believe was one of the first Sistrum racks. I had been using The Original Audio Points for many years prior to this purchase. Sistrum platforms followed and allowed me to hear further into my music. When the Sistrum rack first became available I felt from prior experience that this rack would be a major step over and above my Michael Green Clamp Rack. It was, and has recently become to my system, and ears much the better! The rack has tubes to which the shelves are attached. These stainless steel tubes are hollow with which in are placed threaded stainless steel inserts surrounded by steel Micro- Bearings. These functional materials I believe to be the conductive path to rid my system of the electro-mechanical pollution I now know is so detrimental to the audio and video experience. A couple years have passed with which in my system several updates have been implemented. Crossovers, cables and room accoustics all which are passive all of which are appreciated. Well I am not now so passive! Robert of Star Sound, maybe a year ago informed me of an update of what he described to be the center conductor of the Sistrum Rack. The steel inner conductors could be replaced with ones of brass. Me being some what lethargic and complacenent at times, new the better, and having heard prior improvements of brass over steel as an audio conductor simply blew the swap out as to much trouble. Skip three years ahead to the recent. This past Sunday after mom and mom went home from their day with us. I began the replacement of the steel conductor with ones of brass. Damm I suppose I needed some relief from the large family tribe. Some three hours latter I succeeded in the transfer replacement of the center conductors. 3 am ,I was still up and listening maybe in a haze but one of glorious 2 channel envelopement. Now a few days down the road my euphoric audiogasim has not subsided. The brass innner conductors has brought the music to me! All the old is also the new! Tube texture, with solid state speed and authority! Soundstage never lacking and always large became tactile! Specific yes. Faces of artists you always wanted to see! Yes! Only wish I had replaced the steel with the brass a year ago! Tom |
I actually bought my new sistrum rack WITH the brass rods pre-installed (small fee for this). I love my rack, i think its beautiful and the sound improvement is great. |
