Thiel Owners
Hi, I am looking for some advice about the weak link in my system... My room is 18 by 34 with room treatments on the front wall. Due to room logistics, my Thiel CS5's sit out from the front wall about 4 feet with 3 feet on one sidewall and 7 feet on the other side wall. I sit about 9 feet from the speakers, which are about 9 feet apart. Thus roughly half the room length is behind me. My preamp is a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium and I listen to redbook CD's with a Hegel HD25 DAC using an AudioSpace CD8 with Phillips transport. I have auditioned in home Krell, Parasound, Hegel, Levinson, and Pass amps among others. I liked a Pass x350.0 the best but it was huge and was a space problem. My current amp is a Coda CS that sounds remarkably similar to the Pass to my ears. I have been told that Pass dealers do not like Coda because of the close similarity of sound and much tighter profit margins on the Codas..FWIW. The Thiels dip down to under two ohms and are inefficient but the Coda has no trouble with the bass. The Coda stays in Class A for the first ten watts. It seems to me that the sound becomes too bright in the treble at high volumes. Maybe because the Coda leaves class A or perhaps it is the metal tweeters in the Thiels? Anyway, I like a smooth, nuanced sound with detail and a deep sound stage. My head banging days are over as I seem to have gravitated to acoustic music, jazz, and female vocals. So...assuming that I keep the Thiels, what is the weakest link in my system and what would be a good improvement and why? I appreciate any feedback. Thank you! Dsper |
Welcome! dsper Consult Mark w/ Reno HiFi since you like the Pass Labs sound. Coda, Pass and Threshold are connected, affiliated w/ Nelson Pass. Older Adcom as well. Perhaps one of the other owners here are versed in Prima Luna and can offer a suggestion. Personally, I enjoy a tubed pre-amp mated to a solid state Power amp.I am intrigued w/ your AudioSpace CD8 transport as well. Keep us posted on your audition/purchase decision.Happy Listening! |
Dsper - I suspect something other than your speakers or amps. Your room setup may invite improvement (they always do), but rarely cause high frequency problems, except from side-wall bounce. Is there a hard surface where you would see the speaker if a mirror were there? (Take down that ceiling mirror!) The CS5 tweeter is really sweet and well behaved. There is a possibility of XO capacitor leaking that could overload the lower end of the tweeter, or upper midrange. On that front, I suggest you contact Rob Gillum at rob@coherentsourceservice.com for advice. What comes to my mind is cabling - RF leakage into cables-as-antennae. Check your RF situation-try killing all non hi-fi devices. Try borrowing Goertz or other cable that is very different from your present stuff. Try changing lengths (interconnects vs speaker cable) and so forth. Try shielded AC-power cables while you're at it. Sources are also suspect in these matters. You might consider trying an analog source with some impeccable recordings. My intention is to broaden your troubleshooting mind. Your post suggests you may be focusing on the system elements that are highly likely to be exonerated at the end of the process. Keep us posted. |
tomthiel, I appreciate the advice, well not all of it.....the ceiling mirror thing.......:-)! If I really think about it, it may be that the recordings are the problem. I am listening to some Chet Baker right now and I can play it as loud as I want with no problem. More to think about. I am wondering if a different pair of interconnects between the source and preamp would help? Of course, I would have no idea on where to start. Thanks, Dsper |
A real problem with Thiel speakers is how ruthlessly they reveal upstream problems. That's not to say they themselves might be the problem, but . . . A tell-tale is that if you can extract excellent or trouble-free performance from an excellent source, then your problem might lie elsewhere. Why I mentioned cable is that Thiel's current-draw exacerbates cable problems. Dealers and/or direct sale manufacturers such as Morrow tend to offer generous cable comparison schemes. I suggest long pre to power amp interconnects with short source and speaker runs, especially if you now have something different than that. When you don't have a clue, mix it up and see what floats. |
Dsper...what was your experience with Hegal amplification? To ameliorate your excess high energy at high volumes have you experimented with sitting a little bit farther out from your speakers? In doing so you may want to eliminate any toe in which should help some with the brightness at high volumes. I’ve been using an Aesthetix Atlas for the past six years on my 2.4’s -- the Atlas has a beautifully sweet top end. I also have tubes on the front end - an Aesthetix Janus preamp. Have you considered class D? The last generation Bel Cantos (the Ref500Ms and the Ref1000Ms) sound great on our speakers with absolutely no harsh top end at high volumes. I do NOT recommend the new Bel Canto Ref 600s which sounded very recessed in the upper midrange to me. I’ve heard the Bryston 4b3 which is good but also a bit harsh in the highs at high volumes. I’ll be trying (should receive it tomorrow...color me excited!) a Pass X150.8 and will report my results here. If its harsh at high volumes I may try tubes as well, more specifically ARC and VAC and may try Ayre as well. I’ll report all my findings. My room is pretty well damped so the room is NOT adding to the problem of too much high end energy and frankly I notice it only at high volumes (on the Bryston 4b3 for instance). Keep us all posted on what you try and find out. As far as cables go I’m using Synergistic Research Element Series Cooper and Tungsten throughout and find them a stunning match. |
Have to agree with tomthiel. (f you can place the amplifier somewhere between or very near the speakers, do so. Run short 12 or 10 gauge equivalent cables to the speakers. Run either balanced or unbalanced lines from the preamp to the amplifier. (Balance preferred over long distances). Works great for my 2.7s. I have a 25-foot run between preamp and amplifier. Note: I'm not specifying any particular cable manufacturer. The trick is to get large diameter copper cabling. 16 gauge cables are a No-No, as you'l be putting several hundred watts through to the Thiels. Just my experience YMMV |
Thanks for the good ideas. I do not think the length of my hookups is an issue. My speaker cables (thicker than lamp cord) are only about seven feet on a side. All of my interconnects are three or four feet long. Tomtheil and Brayeagle's interconnect advice is worth exploring as I have not paid attention to interconnects at all. My component upgrades have been large positives so I have not gotten into the nuances of interconnects. Maybe I am getting to that point. I guess I will have to dig into the Cable Company website after all!? Pwhinson, I am pretty happy with the Coda CS amp because it has the current to supply the CS5's; although, my local stereo store has a Hegel H30 that can be run in stereo mode! Also, I am itching to try a McCormack DNA 500. Can anyone comment on McCormack with Thiels? I had been thinking about checking out different preamps, as my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium is in for repair for the second time. The first time was when it was new and had a bad capacitor. Upscale Audio took care of it and says they will cover any required repair and shipping back to me for this second time, so they are standing behind the unit. The problems are starting to kinda bug though. Anyway, back to the treble concern. I pulled the trigger on a Conrad-Johnson Premier 17LS-2 preamp. My thinking is that CJ is supposed to be on the bit darker and warmer side of things, and I am hallucinating this might help. There are good reviews on the unit and the 17LS was the only CJ or ARC preamp to receive all five star reviews on "Audioreview", FWIW. I have not tried that many preamps so I may have made a mistake here; I should know the answer to that question by the end of next week. I appreciate the advice. keep it coming! Dsper |
Dsper - I have long experience with CJ and McC DNA - both are excellent in my opinion. Be careful not to confuse tonal color (CJ=dark) with a perceived problem (bright treble at high volume.) A sweeter preamp might make the problem less evident, as might a different speaker, but the problem has not been addressed. I suggest borrowing some cables before inserting your CJ, since you know your existing system well. |
For my Thiel 2.4s with an Aesthetix Janus front end: I received a Pass x150.8 yesterday and I have to say this amp and the Bryston 4B3 are entirely different sonically. The Pass is very liquid, three dimensional and palpable whereas the Bryston is very analytical and revealing. While the Pass also retrieves a HUGE amount of detail from recordings there are some that will find the Bryston preferable. Since I'm only one day into the audition of the Pass I haven't quite decided yet but for people who believe all SS amps sound the same as long as they are high current and have plenty of power reserves compare these two because there's a huge difference. I would say initially that I favor the Pass but the problem I'm having with the Pass is that on orchestral music and particularly loud orchestral swells the Bryston is simply more accurate and conveys more information...i.e. its more analytical whereas on the Pass I get a bit of a homogenized sounds on orchestral peaks. I DO find the Pass amp far less fatiguing when listening to loud orchestral music. One interesting tidbit of my experience is that the Pass idles at a far higher electrical draw than the Bryston even though they're both Class A up to 10 watts for the Bryston and 15 watts for the Pass. The Bryston hardly ever got really warm even when it was driven hard while the Pass does produce about the same amount of heat as four KT88 tubes I would say. The heat from the Pass is not bad but just be prepared to use your air conditioning more. |
do yourself a favor and get the best of both worlds: the PS Audio 250 BHK amp. here is one for sale here on audiogon for under $4000 https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis931cg-ps-audio-bhk-stereo-amplifier-stereo-power-amp-solid-stat... |
Hi All, This may be a dumb question based on earlier responses to my post about treble glare at high volumes. Is it possible to improve the treble sound by using an amplifier that stays in Class A longer? My Coda CS stays in Class A for the first ten watts. If another amp stayed in class A, say, for 20 watts, could it sound better in the treble at high volumes? Does anyone possible know the bias for a McCormack DNA-500 amp? Thanks for the help! Dsper |
Well after listening to the Pass 150.8 on my Thiel 2.4s all weekend it still seems true that the Pass is a little thick in the lower midband (kinda like me) during orchestral swells. There's that little bit of homogenization there but on everything else it seems to be a great combo. On vocals in particular its an amazing combo. So I'll probably still try an ARC amp this week but I'm less inclined to try the expensive Ayre monoblocks. I'll report more later...stay tuned. And yes I was tempted to try the new PS Audio amp but only the stereo amp is really within my budget and its a similar topology to the Aesthetix Atlas which I already have and like "okay" but that one is probably going to get sold. |
PW - I am all ears for as much detail as you care to share regarding your auditioning. The Crossover Upgrade Project is addressing all aspects of crossover performance. Jim's CS2.4 Signature Edition significantly upgraded tweeter feed capacitors, which certainly affect the entire midrange clarity. Our work will replace those ClarityCap SAs (then state of their art) with CSAs which are considered significantly better. Additionally we will be CSAing the upper end of the woofer, which certainly addresses the lower mid-band (I can also afford to lighten mine). Update: I now have in-house all the ClarityCap CSAs and CMRs along with RTX and Cornell Dubilier styrene bypasses and 4-9s wire and foil coils to build out the PowerPoint, CS2 2 and CS2.4 prototype crossovers. My test mules are my PowerPoints and CS2 2s before we take on beetlemania's CS2.4s. I have two levels of upgrade specified for each of those first two products. I am listening closely to the collective listening experience of the various forums, to augment reviewers and my personal experience. All are welcome to chime in regarding their perceptions, especially of two-series products. My available time is a distinct limitation, but my interest in the Upgrade Project continues to grow. |
Sweet! tomthiel I know that your hard work will pay off big time for us Thiel Audio owners of the CS 2.4/2.4SE models. Hopefully you and beetlemania can reach out to the CS 2.7 / 3.7 owners later down range. And then there are the guys who own vintage models, oh my, the possibilities. Keep up the excellent research/testing. Happy Listening! |
I'm less inclined to try the expensive AyreJust from the price points I wouldn’t think to match MXRs with CS2.4s, but I bet they would sound fantastic. Even more so with a Tom Thiel modded crossover. To repeat what I’ve written elsewhere in this thread, I suspect a modded 2.4 will compete sonically with other speakers up to $30K. |
Beetle - the CDs are being considered for bypasses in the woofer shaping circuits. As PolyPropylenes they are less expensive than the PolyStyrene RTXs which will provide more detail in the upper range. I am reaching for a level of finesse beyond what Thiel aspired. Development of the final voice will require additional reference amps. I am over a thousand miles from Rob's Krell FPB-600s, and most other heavy-hitters are beyond my reach. I have an opportunity to buy PS BHK-250 stereo or 300 mono pair. Beyond the reviews and RonKent's enthusiastic endorsement, what does this board think of the BHK as a reference amp to balance my Classé amps? |
Tom, Arnie Nudell sold his big and tube hungry amps ( I believe Sonic Frontiers) for these amps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6mvhO8fVPs&t=586s |
thank you. I really cannot emphasize enough how much the new P15 power plant transformed my system. As i posted in my review on their website: "I have not heard my system with the BHK mono blocks (have the BHK 250),
so what I am going to say now may seem a bit of hyperbole, but if I had
to choose between the mono blocks and no P15, or one BHK 250 amp and the
P15, I know what I would do.
https://forum.psaudio.com/t/my-review-of-the-new-p15-power-regenerator/6712 |
tomthiel, Despite recommendations to the contrary, and as with so many other recommendations here, I think there are better alternatives: https://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-amplifier/#tab-specs * "2 Ohm Stable for musical transients" Perhaps for earlier Thiel's, but later ones live hovering just over 2 Ohms. * "...though it will perform at its best with speakers having an impedance of 4 Ohms and above.- John Atkinson" |
Perhaps not the entire picture, but a rather clear glimpse of some rather pertinent insight. With which I can avoid unnecessary gambles. https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-specifications https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements |
ronkent my tenure w/ the CS 2.7 and CS 3.7 was spent w/ an Anthem 225 integrated amp over 4 months while on work assignment in Raleigh NC back in 2014. Both amp and loudspeakers were well broken-in and the music flowed effortlessly. Playback was as loud as I wanted w/o any clipping nor deterioration of sound/presentation. All flavors were represented from classical to world music. I can only imagine the aural pleasure demonstrated w/ a higher end amp/separates combo. Happy Listening! |
