Thiel Owners

tomthiel

PM sent.   Happy Listening!

In my considerable messing around with posts, augmented by some industry opinions that I trust - -  - I suspect that geometry may be more important than materials. The original Thiel posts with plastic caps were compared to many 'superior' contenders and always came out on top or on top considering big price jumps for 'better'. I suspect Thiel succumbed to market pressure to have something 'better'. The later Thiel posts are gold on brass (I think), plus pretty beefy. My experiments lead me to believe that bigger is not better, and can indeed be worse due to eddy current generation due to abrupt changes in conductive mass in the presence of rapidly changing signal level and direction. I'm not a fan of beefy connectors regardless of their materials.

WBT makes a low mass, small contact x high pressure post that I am evaluating. They developed a way to deposit 3 molecule thick gold onto good copper. There are also tweaky posts which take that idea further via non-conductive carbon dshells with only a single conducting wire on the tangent. Danny Ritchie of GR research produces a thin shell tube connector. I don't know anything about Mundorf's solution.

I have no final determination, rather a developing opinion that low conductive mass is better.

I am looking forward to your Mundorf vs stock report.

thieliste

The CS3.7 posts look like the 2.7's , if so you will have to drill a round hole since the Thiel posts are rectangle ( I discovered that this is a great idea , one can make a very tight connection ) .  You have to start with a small drill bit and work you way up to the diameter needed .

Good Luck and Be Patient 

Hi guys, this saturday a friend of mine if coming over to help me mount a set of Mundorf copper gold plated binding posts on my CS 3.7s.

Will let you know how it sounds, hope this will be an upgrade compared to the stock ones.

Thank you for the reminder. Such a complex puzzle, for something as simple as connecting stuff.

tomthiel

It was JSC 16awg speaker wire that is 3n purity ,  

I used Cardas 17.5awg for the tweeter and mid and 15.5awg for the woofer .

Thank You jafant

I agree with you about having multiple copies of the Beatles , but I had never sat down and compared them back to back and over and over again like I did with Revolver .  I remember when I bought the re-mastered version of Sgt. Pepper in mono ( my first mono Beatles LP ) listening and hearing differences from the stereo version pressings that I own , the same can be said about Magical Mystery Tour and Revolver . While I like listening to mono versions for being so well mastered I'm still a stereo guy and Giles Martin did a great job with the 50th anniversary releases and the Revolver release . 

I give another listen when my new tonearm arrives and then again when the last crossover capacitors arrive from Clarity , finishing ( maybe ) my speaker upgrade .

vair68robert

I enjoyed reading about your impressions and thoughts on the new 'Revolver' release. Audiophiles cannot have enough The Beatles in his collection.

Happy Listening!

Robert - As I recall your parallel internal wires were MonsterCable or equivalent. Twisted pairs (as in stock Thiel) address the relevant problems, plus they are what Jim designed with, considering their inherent capacitance, inductance and resistance. If I land on Kimber MST or the Iconoclast equivalent, there may be crossover adjustments for the differences in C/L/R from stock wire. These braided runs resolve propagation effects differently than twisted pair; fans believe they do so more elegantly. It seems these effects are too subtle and/or complex to be modeled in obvious ways. I had previously dismissed them due to my lack of understanding of the interacting variables. Ray has encouraged me to include them in my trials.

Previously I had auditioned the Iconoclast braided conductor speaker wire. It is excellent albeit very expensive. I have approached them about virtues and problems with their wire as single runs rather than the +/- runs that I auditioned. And the beat goes on.  

Happy Standard Time All

tom 

When I started upgrading the speakers I ran single wires from the 3 speakers , with the coaxial mid/tweeter wires + running together and the - running together separated thru the original holes in the coaxial chamber down the width of the back of the speaker behind the woofer and thru the original holes in the bracing that separates the woofer from where the crossovers are .  I kept this setup until my experimenting with the single speaker wiring showed me that while It seemed like I was hearing a more dynamic sound over time I discovered that there was a graininess to it after going back to using Cardas Neutral Reference speaker cables I decided to try twisting the internal wires  into +/- pairs like the the wiring in Thiel speakers (if you remember my speakers had 16awg wires constructed with +/- running together in parallel , one reason that I started the upgrading) , this resulted in a smoother sound .

Maybe the 3 wire single polarity twist will solve the graininess .  I look forward to your findings on this setup .    

tomthiel

Right On! I am not a fan of aftermarket Remote Control. Give me OEM.

Please ask Bill if he has an extra RM SX700 (remote control). I will be more than happy to pay for it.

Happy Listening!

The control match is confusing. The match for the S9000ES is a RMT-D122. Ebay, etc. says the D111 will work, but it doesn't work with an SACD player. Bill Thalmann is sending me his spare. Now, to find the remote for the SCD-1. Always something.

tomthiel

Excellent! Good to read that you have a contact at Sony. Perhaps your contact has a RM -  Remote Control for S9000es.

please ask about RM - Remote Control SX700.

This matches SCD 9000es Player.

Ultimately, you ears will find favor among those Filters. The Stereophile article even mentions 1 filter specifically for Classical Music. Very impressive.

Happy Listening!

Great review - great reviewer.

I get the audio preference bit . I got a contact at Sony technical service whom I’ll query for specs. 
Thanks.

tomthiel

Google : Sony SCD-1 player reviews. The first entry will be an outstanding Stereophile review by Jonathan Scull 1999.  I have this magazine in my collection and remember reading it circa 1999. Mr. Scull does an excellent job interpreting and reviewing this State Of The Art spinner. Specifically, those 5 filters are examined at length. This will be a starting point.

more to follow,

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Outstanding! A White Paper will certainly provide much insight for your discretion.

Sony is/was big on “Bass Management “ those 5 selectable Filters will tie into their philosophy.  To start, Google Sony SCD-1 forums and reviews. This player is 20 years old, so, have your readers on.  I will do some detective work on my end as well. Give me a few days.

Happy Listening!

The operational and service manuals have lots of information, including a caricature description of the filters. However, I located Sony's white paper on the SCD-1 which has more detail including frequency responses of the 5 filters. However, I want to look at how the reconstructions affect the time domain. I'm developing a mental framework, but that task would be more effective and productive with more information.

Do you know where that filter discussion / information might be found?

tomthiel

2nd Note;

Sony writes a very good Operational manual. Take the time to digest it. I know that it is quite lengthy. Still, a wealth of information is there.  Have fun!

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Nice catch ! On the Sony S9000Es player. Those remotes are plentiful on eBay.

Now, to address your query. All of my spinners, minus the AYRE, have those Digital “filters”. While it is a marketing ploy, to a degree, these are fine-tuning tone controls for CD or SACD playback.  Test drive each filter or setting to your ear brain. Purely customized to the user’s taste.  Both S9000es and SCD-1 are very well annotated and documented in Audio forums. You will have zero trouble finding out pertinent information on both machines.  
 

Those filters are very subtle. You will find the one that best suits your personal Playback taste. Try to have a quiet environment for best outcome. Keep me posted as you finagle this fun process.  Let me know if you have any questions.
 

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Thank you for the cabling/ XO update. Very cool to have consultation with Mr. Ray Kimber.  His cables are a Sonic match for Thiel Audio speakers. If you need a second opinion, reach out to Taylor at Gold Print Audio. He used to represent Thiel Audio. Currently represents Kimber Kable for a long time.

Happy Listening!

vm1

Outstanding! Thank you for the update.

Happy Listening!

In the realm of disc-spinners, I’ve broken into the twenty-first century. I picked up a Sony S9000ES player. Alas, it came with the wrong remote and I haven’t yet played SACDs with it, but I’m searching for a RMT-D122 required for this player.

I have finally fired up the SCD-1 bohemoth that I snagged from the Thiel Audio auction. Its SACD section is kaput via Bill Thalmann’s diagnosis of a motherboard issue. But the CD section is quite a treat. Wow. I have retired my erstwhile Philips CD80 which has served me well for 32 years. Time comes for everything.

Anyone here know anything about the SCD-1’s selectable filters? The (70 page!) manual gives marketing speak descriptions of the 4 alternative ’slow’ filters. I’d love to learn the actual performance parameters of each.

Here’s a little catch-up report. During the summer I got snatches of time to evaluate outboard crossovers and internal wiring. I have added some stunning KimberKable solid silver 3-braid to the mix. Some may remember awhile back when some of us compared single-polarity runs vs +/- paired-polarity runs. We were comparing amp to speaker runs and the main problem with singles was variable wire to wire distance causing transmission anomalies. But we were all enamored by the quick, uncomplicated sound of the parallel configuration.

I spoke with Ray Kimber, who wholeheartedly recommended the single polarity solution, which is now included in my trials. In the cabinet, each run can be stuck to the wall with butyl rubber goo. What a sonic treat - from the point of view of ease and lack of dynamic congestion. Kimber’s samples of AGSS 3-Braid (stranded) and AGSC(MST) 3-Braid (solid) employ 3 conductors in a braid for each separated polarity run. MST stands for Magnetic Stealth Trio. Insulation is teflon. I’ll be getting copper samples soon.

The CS1.5 is my current workhorse, having 4 relatively short runs from the outboard XO to the drivers.

Just a quick update on my CS 2.3 coax rebuild: Rob completed the rebuild. I'm looking forward to seeing the results. 

Happy Friday! All

cascadesphil

Thank you for the confirmation. I am quite curious as to why the ML sale?

That is a Beast of a Power Amp.

Happy Listening!

Those are 2.7s (3.7s have the aluminum dome on top).  Seller is just about 3 hours south of me.

All

a classic Mark Levinson 23.5 power amp avail over on U.S. Audiomart.

Seller has a sweet pair of Thiel speakers (CS 2.7 or CS 3.7 by my eyes) in the ad.

Happy Listening!

roxy54

Nice catch! I hope those CS 5 speakers find the next good home.
 

Happy Listening!

Thiel CS5 Best Offer For - US Audio Mart

Sounds good, although there are no pictures yet. 

halifax

Nice catch! I hope that those 7.2 speakers find the next good home.

Happy Listening!

Hey all, there is a pair of 7.2 on ebay for a decent price in Missouri.

All Hallows’ Eve

silvanik

Good to see you here again. The Crown brand is tops in the Pro Audio world.

Peavey is a close second. One could not go wrong with either brand. Are you keeping the Crown I Tech 9000HD ? 

Always good to read about another McCormack fan and owner. It is a proven Sonic match for Thiel Audio speakers.

Happy Listening!

Recently I started to experiment with pro amps, my reference is a wonderful McCormack DNA-2 and one of my set of speakers are Thiel   3.6, I got the opportunity to buy for good price a Crown I-Tech 9000HD and the result is something difficult to explain in words, it's crazy powerful (1500W for channel), made for pro use, normally no considered for home listening among audiophiles, snubbed and not worthy. I simply  say, try it if you can, without  preconceptions, then come back here to report your opinion. It manage the bastard low load of 3.6 as no other, cost no object, no trace of harshness in mid-high region, bass  impact is unbeliveable with a great soundstage. Could no belive to such level of performance if I was only told about. Price is no cheap, around 8000$ new, but worth to give it a try before to go to conclusion. I will not get rid of  my McCormack but the progress in  technology is there for a good reason.

Model 150.8 for the CS 2.4 and CS 2.7 loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

Unsound,

XA 200.5 & X600.5 for the CS 7.2

Not all Pass Labs amps are ideal for Thiel’s.

Happy Friday! All

VAC preamps are amazing with all Thiel speakers.

duramax747

Thank you for the update. Take your time building any Reference system. 
I agree that Pass Labs is a Sonic match for our loudspeakers.  You have many excellent choices in pre-amps.  Same for Cabling. Much decision will hinge upon the Pre-amp. Solid state v. Tubed.  Either way you cannot go wrong.  Keep me posted as you navigate Cabling.

Happy Listening!

jafant,

Sadly I do not have a system setup. I'm keeping the CS 7.2 as with some effort they are tough to beat even in the 20-30k range.

The Pass Labs will stay as they mate very well with the Thiel's.

From my experience a tube pre amp is a worth while addition. I have a Supratek Grange Signature. You add that 300B mids while maintaining the sparkle on top and the solid bottom end with the Pass.  The three are the best synergy I have experienced in a Thiel rig.  

At the moment I am looking at DACS in the 10-15k range.

Cabling is a crap shoot. I have quite a few to choose from. 

I'm hoping Tom takes the 7.2 crossover on.  I want to make them external and replace the internal wiring. 

I'm going to sell the CS6 and maybe the CS 2.4SE as my listening room is too large for them. 

vm1

My pleasure to assist you. Yes! there are a few CS6 fans and owners here on the 

Panel.  Take the time to read through this Thread. There is a plethora of excellent information.

Happy Listening!

duramax747

Besides Pass Labs power amps, what other gear/cabling is in your system?

Happy Listening!

This guys has a serious rig for his 7.2s :

Tom,

"Supporting a CS6 purchase is much costlier than the 2.3."

I can bare witness to the truth in that statement. 

vm1 - Thank you for your kind words. We did indeed hope to create speakers to bring musical enjoyment for a long, long time.

Regarding the CS6, there is lots of good information in this thread, some quite recent. In broad terms, Thiel was a cost-plus operation, what you paid reflected what went into the product with old-fashioned (tight) margins. If the CS6 sold for double the CS2.3, it had twice the manufacturing costs (simplified model.) The model includes having twice the budget for amplification to support the larger speakers. And a larger room . . .  Supporting a CS6 purchase is much costlier than the 2.3.

Thank you jafant and tomthiel. THE Tom Thiel? Wow! Excuse me for being so green. Here is a little more detail on how I ended up here:

My first set of CS 2.3 is 23 years old. I thought about buying newer and better speakers. I went to Rockport dealers to listen to their entry and high end models. They were excellent speakers, but surprisingly they did not impress me as being far better than CS 2.3 despite their astronomical prices. I came away from those auditions far more impressed with the quality of Thiel still comparing so well against new and ultra expensive speakers. That’s how I ended up getting the second set of CS 2.3 for a secondary residence, which apparently was over driven and had fried drivers. Turns out the eBay seller of the drivers has the instructions for updating the crossovers.

Thank you tomthiel for making such a wonderful product that truly stands the test of time. By the way, I have the chance to get a pair of CS 6. Are they significantly better than CS 2.3?

tomthiel

Thank you for your expert advice as always. 
I hope that you are well and recovering from your recent journey.

Happy Listening!

vm1 - Rob is the expert, but he sometimes goes dark due to personal circumstances. So, let's go. The CS2.3 came out in 1998 and the coax was revised early 2001. The revision was adding a bucking magnet to the coax to eliminate video interference. That also quiets stray EMF field interactions with the crossover network. All good. Possibility of other changes unknown to me - I wasn't there.

I have a factory XO drawing dated as 11-17-08 and 2-2-01 which times up nicely. Rob has said the coax change was made at #4567 which is pretty late in the product life. I can share this schematic with you, and would appreciate a photo of your XO and serial number. If interested, send me a PM.