Previous speakers in my listening room had always benefited from quite fierce toe in, essentially with the tweeters pointing at my ears. With the Thiels it’s totally different. They don’t sound bad in that configuration, but it does compress their ultra impressive sound staging, plus the treble is far better integrated with the other drivers when in a more or less flat set up. I have about an inch of toe in just to channel the sound away from the side walls.
Essentially I’m in heaven with how they sound.
While led they do plunge Stygian depths of bass, the sound is still lean when it needs to sound lean. In other words there appears to be zero cabinet coloration. To my ears the 3.5s have the sound I was chasing with electrostatics, but with all the dynamism they lack. Just superb.
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^ideally little to none, but if one has a difficult room with speakers close to the side walls it might be better to add more toe in. |
Excellent! catalysis
yes, very minimal (read none) toe in, on these speakers.
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"Thanks! for sharing your impressions and experiences- catalysis what gear, including cabling, are your using in your system?"
Benchmark DAC2 HGC, Bridged Adcom GFA 555II’s, Benchmark star quad interconnects. Canare star quad speaker cable. I have the 3.5 equalizer permanently in circuit. All components connected via Adcom Ace Enhancer.
Contrary to some people’s experience with Adcoms and Thiels, I don’t find the sound presentation sound harsh at all. I think that is helped by the very high quality dac which means the Adcoms are amplifying a very pure and accurate signal. I also agree with others that toe in should be absolutely minimal for best treble resolution.
Despite Thiel’s comments that these speakers aren’t very critical to position, I find that they benefit enormously from experimentation. Even two inches less toe in can bring big contrasts in sound presentation. I do have to wonder how many owners dismissed them as harsh without playing around with them in their music rooms?
My own take is that the tweeter has quite wide dispersion characteristics and any attempt to over focus treble direction, for example pointing directly at the listener position, essentially takes them out of Jim’s intended design window. |
Thank You -guys for the excellent discussions in this thread.
Happy Labor Day!
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Minuscule differences of course, but I think neither speaker went to 20Hz, something like 23Hz, but I appreciate that’s as near as dammit to full range.
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How about CS7 and CS7.2? I would say full range... |
Thiel CS 5's and 5i's were full range. |
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Thanks! for sharing your impressions and experiences- catalysis
what gear, including cabling, are your using in your system?
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Have been watching this thread with huge interest and perhaps it’s time I waded in with a few initial thoughts, again on the 3.5s. I’m 100% with oblgny in his praise for these amazing speakers. Goodness knows I’ve owned a hell of a lot of speakers in the past 30 years, from three types of Quad electrostatic, to Kef 107/2s to Celestion Kingstons, to LS3/5As, to name but a few, and nothing comes even close to what the 3.5s do as a whole. I truly think my quest is at an end. They handle ANY genre of music utterly effortlessly and don’t need huge amounts of gain to sparkle either. As oblgny says, there’s something so right about them. And yet they aren’t exactly the most sought after speakers and go for prices that are punching way, way below their weight. I have no hesitation in calling Jim Thiel an utter genius of speaker design. Admittedly not the easiest speakers to drive, but who cares when the sound is so gloriously complete. Perhaps someone could answer if these were the only full range Thiel speakers? I can confirm that the Kentucky service dept is alive and well and I just bought new spikes from them a couple of weeks ago. They don’t do the rounded tip ones any more however.
As a slightly negative footnote, while I'm pleased that the new regime at Thiel has allowed the service dept to stay alive, the new designs are not worthy of the brand. You'd at least think they'd retain the coherent source concept, wouldn't you. Presumably they purchased the IP too? |
Thank You- claero
tell me, which model is the 2.3i ? What other gear, including cabling, are you using in your system?
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proud owner of thiel 2.2 and 2.3 i . thiel have one of the best dynamic i heard so far (may be i heard too less).
if your amp have enough current , the tweeter and woofer can push or stop in a super speedy focus way that i still trying to find other speaker may do as well .
the only weakness they need warmer sound amp on the female vocal especially for the newer model like 2.3i but the 2.2 was fine .
anyone can recommend any brand to upgrade for me?
thanks
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As we gear up for the holiday weekend guys, Happy Listening!
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Big Conrad Johnson fan here- robin. Happy Listening!
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Nice to see that you are close to me (Prattville AL.) -Jon.
I was not impressed w/ Revel nor Aerial speakers which receive many accolades in the Audio press?
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jafant,
I actually have these in 5.1 systems for both stereo and movies. I use a cj MF5600 in one and an NHT Power5 (B&O Icepower) in the other. Before anyone reading this scoffs at the NHT, they should listen - or read about it on the web.
obligny - I thought some might say I was bonkers for liking my 2 2 just as much as the 2.7. There are differences, but liked equally by myself. The older Thiels are best buys found on the web...! I fully understand your love of the 3.5. |
robin...
Hang you out to dry? Over what, pray tell?
When and if timing and finances permit I may eventually move up from my 3.5's to another Thiel, but it's been proven that these are extraordinarily difficult to beat at any price. I've had Magnepan 1.7's, .7's and Von Schweikert VR4's pass through my hands all the while returning to the Thiels. I've been interested in the 3.6's out of curiousity but none have been geographically desirable enough as yet.
I fancy myself a relatively rational sort, so this is not a case of my drinking the proverbial Kool-aid nor the rants of a Thiel zealot. Enjoy the music!
Have a safe and fun Labor Day weekend folks! |
oblgny.....I totally agree with you about being nervous about any changes, because I have become very protective in preserving what I have and uneasy about potentially loosing it....like with normal wear from aging. As I test more speakers, I have become increasingly aware of just how musically engaging my Thiels are. I recently bought and sold some much more expensive Revel Ultima2 speakers after only having them for about 2 months. They were touted as having all the attributes that I like about the Thiels, but it was obvious from my first listening session that my Thiels would be back.The Thiels just seem to make the whole listening room come alive, while all the other speakers I've tried just seems to project sound from between the speakers.
I'm currently using them with the Audio Research Ref 150 and Ref5 with a tube modified Modwright Oppo 105. I have been told numerous times that 150 watts of tube amplification is not enough juice for the Thiels, but for my listening volumes, it seems like plenty.
jafant.....I'm glad that I found this thread and will "follow this discussion" with email notifications.
Jon (Birmingham, AL)
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No worries robin-
all Thiel talk is welcomed. What amp are you using? Happy Listening!
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I have 2.2 model and now the 2.7. I can't bear to part with the 2.2's.
I completely understand what oblgny sees in his 30 year old speakers. It is the same thing I see (hear) in the 2.2 version and why I will not let them go.
The refinements over the years for each model line has been beneficial in the smoothness and musicality of the speaker, however the "old" sound was just as good - even better- in different ways. There - I've said it - you guys can hang me out to dry if you want and I spent quite a bit more on the new model. I like it just as much, but not more.
i listen to the 2.7's and sometime want to listen to the 2.2's. I'll put the old models up against competition's new models any day of the week. |
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michaeljbrown-
I have not ruled out Krell, either. Keep me posted on your buying decision!
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Good to see you- jonandfamily.
Hopefully, you will bring much to our thread here and love of Thiel speakers.
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jonandfamily...
My 3.5's are about 30 years old and still perform as I imagine they did way back when. I suppose one could check the crossover components out to verify all is in order, but I am personally VERY hesitant about letting anyone attempt a repair or "upgrade" for a couple of reasons.
1.) I believe the design holds true to Jim Thiel's intent and seriously doubt that any alteration to them could or would improve anything. Makes me nervous thinking about the day that something could falter. I bought Thiel's because he designed them, and I should leave well enough alone.
2.) I'd sooner change another component over the speakers. They've sounded wonderful with everything I've put through them. For now at least it appears that Thiel is still willing to make repairs on their legacy products such as our's, but for how long who knows? |
Guys, I hate to switch gears but I bought some Thiel CS3.6s on Audiogon about 5 years and recently asked the manufacturer when mine were made based on their serial numbers. They say 1996....20 years old. They sound terrific, but is there something that could be updated or upgraded to bring these closer to "new" but "broken-in" sound? I'm very happy with what I have, but you never know what you're missing without hearing it. If there is a different discussion thread for this, please let me know. |
I enjoyed the input guys. I am inclined to pick up a Krell fpb 300cx for the 6's.An fpb Krell worked great with my 2.4's--; despite not blowing my dress up with the 5i's..I like the Pass amps but have not heard them with the Thiel like I have the Krell.
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Thanks! for sharing- oblgny.
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I'm using a Primare A34.2 class d amp which is rated at 150 into 8ohms and "almost double that" into 4ohms - that directly from Primare when I reached out to them inquiring about it.
(Their owner's manual is spartan to say the least.) Virtually every amp I've used in the last few years put out 300 watts into 4 ohm loads.
My listening level is fairly conservative to say the least so I've never stressed the amp nor the Thiels throughout, but I do stress the high current importance in making them perform. The Primare and my BAT pre are breaking in nicely - there is a noticeable difference in sonics after about an hour - for the better. When both are warmed up the same volume setting just blooms - everything simply has more presence and space.
Unsound...I rep some pretty good burgs - where do you reside? I might be able to steer you to some values. But message me aside - this is forum is for Thiel!
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Jafant, it might be a bit more complicated than that. |
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oblgny, saffron_boots, unsound
I concur that the initial power rating on any speaker is rounded off/begins w/ 8ohms. Keep in mind that it is not all about high power, but, high current (especially the newer models).
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robinbarbour-
what amp are you using?
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Much Thanks! guys- for the excellent info.
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Just going over the power requirements again....
I have CS 2.7 and from ratings below if I looked for an amp putting out 400 watts into 8
Ω, it would double down to 800 at nominal 4
Ω and 1333 watts at the 2.4
Ω minimum?
CS 2.7 Specs:
Impedance 4 Ω (2.4 Ω minimum@160Hz) Recommended Power 100-400 watts
My amp really seems puny now...200 at 8 and 350 at 4! |
I had the opportunity to speak with him a few times, and he was always a patient, perfect gentleman.
I too am enamored with the 3.5's, IMHO all things considered, it might have been his best product. It takes much more money to get somewhat better performance. Being the absolute bargains they were when new, and even more so now on the used market, I fear that some don't realize that for them to be all they can be, they need to be fed with appropriate gear that could very well exceed the current cost of these speakers.
If your ever feeling generous about wine recommendations, please share! Though they're usually a bit out of my budget for regular consumption, amongst others, I have a particular fondness for both red and white Burgundies, and late harvest Rieslings.:-) |
Unsound...
Wow - you actually had an opportunity to speak with Jim Thiel? I'm envious as hell.
No other component I've had gives me more pleasure than these 3.5's. For me they've proven to be my reference point for quality loudspeakers overall. They just get it right.
I wish I had gotten into hifi again while he was still around. It would have been nice to meet him and thank him. As some members here may know I've been in the wine business my entire life and I know many great winemakers personally here and abroad. It would have been nice to shake the hand of Mr. Thiel indeed.
I'm actually proud that I own a pair of his speakers. They are art in every respect. |
saffron_boots, Yes, Jim Thiel told me that his power recommendations were based upon quality 8 Ohm ss amplification ratings that could double down, and if one were to choose to use tube amplification they should double the power accordingly.
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robinbarbour, While that would seem to make sense, I can't confirm or deny that to be true. Please keep in mind that while up until very recently one could find many attributes that Thiel speakers shared, Jim Thiel got there through various means. With the speakers under consideration, the 3.5's and 6's used eq'd sealed boxes or passive radiators, different box volumes, and perhaps most importantly different drivers and at different price points. |
I've always assumed the recommended power was based on an 8 ohm load since that's how amps are normally advertised. It was up to you and your dealer to recognize that you needed one that doubled down at 4 and 2 ohm. |
UNSOUND - I have always been curious about these power ratings. Are they taking into account impedance at the higher rating? For instance with the CS 6 is the higher rating due to lower impedance swing? |
The Thiel CS 6's are less sensitive, the minimum impedance nearly half that of the Theil 3.5's, and the Thiel recommended more power for the CS 6's (100-400 Watts per channel) than the CS 3.5's (50-250 Watts per channel). |
oblgny, The spikes for the 3.5's are intended to couple the speakers to the floor where appropriate(!). These early Thiels were provided with two sets of spikes, one set was blunt tipped for direct contact with hard, firm flooring and the other set was pointed in order to pierce through carpeting to make contact with firm flooring. The spikes when inserted into the speaker bases hardly protruded, and not intended to be used just to elevate the speakers. In fact, Thiel suggested not using them when the speakers would be placed on flooring that might vibrate with such coupling. Thiel used to offer the replacement spikes for a very nominal fee. |
Michaeljbrown...
I can heartily recommend Pass Labs X150.5 or up. I've seen a few in your price range and to my ears were the best amps for my CS3.5's.
The X150.5 is 150 watts X 2 into 8ohms, 300 into 4ohms. I had an ARC LSB2 for the preamp.
Also, I can recommend looking into a Pass via Reno Hifi here. I have no affiliation or mercenary connection to Reno but my two quick transactions with Mark were exemplary. I purchased a First Watt M2 from him and almost immediately stepped up to the 150.5. Full credit for the M2 towards the 150.5. Pass ain't cheap at any level so knowing you're dealing with a class act is reassuring.
Have fun in your quest. Thiels reveal! |
Jafant...
My current pair of 3.5's did not have the spikes included so I simply used some isolation blocks to raise them to the appropriate height having them would have provided. The pair I gifted to my nephew did have them so I could measure.
I've never seen a pair of this model with outriggers anywhere so I have to think they were not designed for use? A common issue when buying this model now is with the spikes sometimes as they tend to bust the plinth where they screw in, no doubt from attempting to reposition 'em without lifting them. They're relatively heavy so that's understandable.
This pair did not experience that problem so if I come across a set of spikes somewhere I'll buy them. Not a real issue at all for me.
Imagine getting these for $350 like I did - from a fellow member no less. Easily my best ever purchase.
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Guys-
I have been re-visiting some of the older Thiel threads and offering updates. They are not limited to this thread. Some are in the Amp/Preamp section, Digital section... |
oblgny
the newer models (CS 1.6/1.7/ 2.4/2.4se/2.7) are all recommended the outriggers. I do not know about the more vintage ones? |
