Warren,
oddly enough, I have only heard Thiel speakers w/ Audioquest speaker cables. They seem to mate very nicely. Others to consider, Kimber,
Nordost, Audience and Wireworld.
Older XLO gets an honorable mention from a friend whom used these cables for many years. |
Hi All,
I have been reading this thread and just have to tell you where I am at with my CS5's and amp search.
My system used to be Maggie 3.6's but I obtained an inexpensive pair of CS3.6's which I liked a lot and then saw an ad for some CS5's so I said why not.
l ran an Oppo 105 modified by Ric Schultz, Prima Luna Dialogue Premium preamp, Cullen Cables, and W4S ST1000 with the Maggies and was quite happy.
With the CS5's, I needed a new amp. So...I was able to in home audition various amps. In my system, my thoughts:
Proceed HPA2 - harsh treble
Hegel H20 - delicate but got congested with complicated music
Mark Levinson 535H - sterile
Krell 302 evolution - the bass was okay but the treble was a bit shrill - 140 pounds - ugh
Pass X350 - great definition and bass but a bit polite - 130 pounds - ugh
So I took a chance and talked with Doug Dale at Coda. He had a new old stock CS with their Thermal Trac mod. 300 watts into 4 ohms and doubles down. 75 amps of current with peaks to 125 amps.
Sounds very good to my ear in my system. Very musical with lots of detail. The bass is as good, if not better than anything I have tried. Class A to 5 or 10 watts so it weighs in at 50 pounds and I can play it all day and it is only warm to the touch.
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@jafant So what are your go-to cables with the Thiels, out of curiosity?
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Thanks.
The Kimber Hero is fine. The system ran with original Monster M1000 (the grey ones from 1989) throughout until i needed to buy more when I went to 7.1. Then i just switched it up. As long as the cables are well-insulated from interference, I'm cool with them. I don't get too caught up in the minutia unless something sounds "wrong". The last time that happened, was with the M1000 Mk. II. It did something different, and less convincing, so i bought up all the previous version I needed.
Cheers,
Warren |
Nice system Warren!
how do you like Kimber Kable w/ your Thiel speakers?
Other cable systems that you have owned?
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Like I said: lotto = new music room. The speakers are 181 and 182. So yours are the 89th pair (pretty much the end of the line).
If we must talk about the system details, here’s the analogue chain:
Ortofon Cadenza Red > SME Series IV > Oracle Delphi > Graham Slee Reflex C > Kimber Hero > Parasound P7 > Kimber Hero XLR > Mark Levinson No.27 > Monster Powerline 2 > Thiel CS 2.4SE
Oppo BDP-95 (7.1 analogue out)
Apple Mac Mini
Parasound A52 (5-ch.)
Parasound Zhd (HDMI switch)
Thiel MCS1 (centre)
PSB Imagine Mini (surrounds)
SVS SB12-NSD (subs)
Cheers,
Warren |
Another query-
Warren, what other gear, including cabling, is in your system? |
Nice! Warren.
which #'s do you own? I have #'s 177 and 178. I love these speakers!
My initial audition was w/ #'s 50 and 51 about 3 years ago.
So rich in sound and presentation. Only if you have a very large listening space (20x20, 25x25 or 30x30) should you seek out the CS 3.7 model.
Plus, the massive amp(s) to drive them properly. Happy Listening! |
Hi jafant,
I have a pair of Thiel CS2.4SE (the last pair made actually). This was my upgrade from a pair of Thiel CS2 I bought in 1988. I had been looking for a new pair of speakers for about 5 years, but nothing seemed to outperform (to my ears) the 2's until the 2.4's came along.
FYI, about the SE run: they only made 91 of the anticipated 150 pairs. I got this info from Lana Ruth directly. The run was cancelled during the time of flux in the company, due to the restructuring, and a lack of interest from their declining dealer network.
I'm very happy with the speakers. These will probably be the last pair I own, unless I win the lotto and seek out a pair of 3.7's (to complement the new music room)...
Cheers,
Warren
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Thanks! for the update oblgny.
Yes, big fan of Transparent cabling here as well. I am very fortunate to have heard almost every model in the MM2 catalog, including, the all-mighty OPUS series!
I feel that the best investment w/ this company lies in its trade-up program. Nothing else like it! The middle of the chain is very sweet and the best place to start your musical journey, IMO.
Happy Listening! |
oblgny good strategy starting at the entry level for transparent cables. That is the best way to find the sweet spot in the line, and being a long time Thiel owner I have proven to myself over and over you do not need reference wire to make your Thiels sing better than most.
Keep us updated on your journey. |
Damn...the store only had one pair of Transparent Link interconnects in stock. I ordered three more pairs, and I may have to purchase a few pair of balanced cables since the BAT has those as well.
Since Transparent offers a trade up program on their cables I'm starting with their least expensive models. I'm finding that the Wave speaker cables seem to be the best match with my Thiel CS3.5's. Where other cables such as Anti-Cables, Goertz delivered some pretty acceptable sonics, the Transparents seem to bring out the widest range without suffering from accentuating any particular frequency range.
Dare I say that I find the Thiels to be the most neutral sounding speaker I've owned, and as I've stated before, "Thiels reveal" - anything in the chain that colors the sonics is soon enough found out. Not that coloring sonics is a bad thing, all equipment does that no matter the manufacturer. I know that a few members here and elsewhere find Thiels to be on the bright side, and they can be for some, but I've tossed a good many amp/pre-amp combos into my system the last year and a half and the one constant is the Thiels. They just make almost anything sound good. Some sound different, but all sounded good.
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Going to Audio Den now...just around the corner from me house.
Speaker cables are The Wave, I believe they're the least expensive from Transparent but I like them. They're 10 footers although 8 would have sufficed, bananas on both ends. I have to check on the status of my BAT 3ki pre amp there anyway since my guy there is fixing a busted toggle switch on it. Probably going to buy a complete set of new tubes as well since I don't know the age of the ones currently installed.
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Well, let me know when you switch to all-Transparent cablng oblgny. Happy Listening! |
Very nice! oglgny
which models are you using? Happy Listening! |
Jafant...
I am slowly moving toward all Transparent Audio cables in my system. Unsound...there's a pair of 1000 watt DSonic mono blocks up for sale here - $775 - that oughta be enough for those CS 5's doncha think??? |
What would you consider the best sounding Thiel speaker's of all time? |
oblgny
Classe' (corrected). I still want to hear B.A.T. and Thiel just for a reference. Difficult to find dealers/retailers.... |
jafant...
i dunno about the Primare preamplifier...just a "me" thing about having an all one-brand setup,..ya know? But based upon their R32 phono preamp and this amp I'd have no problem perhaps, maybe, doing so down the road. I could sell my Peachtree 220SE integrated to fund that... |
I'd jump on those 5's as well, except for the cost of appropriate amplification. |
Excellent! oblgny
BAT, ARC, Claase' -you certainly have your pre-amps covered.
did you not want a Primare pre-amp/processor ?
Cabling? |
jafant...
I've been running the Primare through a Classe pre and an Audio Research pre for about a week now. (I'm also coming into a BAT VK3i preamplifier pretty soon...) I'm leaning more toward the ARC preamplifier as that appears to be my "Thiel" amongst preamps - they've made every amp I've owned sound good. I purchased the BAT simply because I want to "tube" the front end.
I also picked up an excellent used pair of Von Schweikert VR5 HSE's only because the price was simply too good to pass up. Suffice it to state that the Thiel CS3.5's need not worry, although I enjoyed the VS in and of themselves. It's difficult to miss the mids and highs that the Thiels provide, and the VS's sounded veiled by comparison. I just sold the VS's.
Anyway, I'm liking the Primare. Even though Primare was somewhat vague as to the amp's 4ohm power rating, I find that it matches well with the Thiels. For approximately $2400 the Primare is a keeper. It doesn't emphasize the bass that my 3.5's do so well to any degree, which is a good thing, and those trademark mids and highs have not suffered, either. (That and my CJMF200...) There's a current ad on the Gon for a pair of CS5's that I would literally jump at - $1350! - if it weren't for the seller whom I had a previous poor experience with - his geographic location differs from the actual location he ships from, and I found that to be utter bs.
I am really looking forward to hearing how the BAT VK3i will complement my system. While the class d Primare doesn't over emphasize the highs, I think I'm finding the all solid state setup just a smidgen on the "bright" side. With the Classe preamp I found the upper end to be somewhat etchy, which seems to have settled down with the amp running for a few hours. The ARC didn't sound like that at all.
Anyway, I would recommend the Primare for anyone seeking a very decent amp at a very reasonable, IMHO, price.
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Thx. Jafant. Are you closer to choosing an amp and cables for your cs2.4se?
Keep us posted. You're right, I'll get Thiels again. Will wait patiently for a pair of 2.7s. Regards....
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Hope you guys are having a fun Thiel weekend. Good Music! |
Great! oblgny
are you going to demo the Primare? |
^non-specific specifications:-). |
Hey folks
I just received the answer my inquiry regarding the Primare A34.2 amplifiers power rating into 4 ohms. (The only rating given on the site and in the literature accompanying the amp is 150 watts into 8 ohms.)
Primate's email stated that the amp will almost double its power into 4 ohms, "almost 300 watts per channel."
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Thanks! for sharing- cal3713.
how are the (2) amps, XA30.5 and X250.5, different?
Happy Listening! |
Just a quick comment on the Pass amp comment. I believe there is quite a bit of consensus that the X series is least warm of the Pass products. Nelson's amps get a bit warmer as you move from the X to the X.5, to the XA.5, and finally XA.8 (I haven't read enough to feel like I know where the X.8 fall in there). On my Thiel 2.4s, I found an XA30.5 much warmer and more natural sounding than an X250.5. Bass was surprisingly close and I ended up choosing the XA30.5 without much deliberation (despite the community's assurance that it was a bad match). |
Thanks Jafant, I certainly am!
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Hope you guys are having an excellent Thiel week!
Happy Listening!
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Thanks! for sharing- jeffjazz.
it is interesting the variations on a 1st order cross-over and how different they present w/in other speaker designs. Happy Listening! |
Not a Thiel owner but I did own the CJ MF200 amp and currently run a Pass Labs X150 amp. BTW using a Eminent Technology 8A planar speakers which use 1st order crossovers also, and lower sensitivity similar to Thiel.
The CJ amp is warmer in the mids. The bass is strong but not super tight. It images well. The high end is a little soft. The Pass Labs amp has a different sound, not a tube like sound. Very clean and fast and detailed. Both amps will have no problem driving the Thiels. The CJ puts out 250 watts a side before clipping into 8 ohms, and no problem with 4ohms. The Pass amp - even though rated at only 150 watts a side will also put out 250 watts in 8 ohms and no problem down to 1 ohms. You may want to consider trying a Crown XLS amp
The XLS 1500 , 2000 or 2500. They are inexpensive and sound really good for the money maybe better than the CJ. I lived with that CJ amp for many years. My 1st audiophile amp. Happy listening!
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Hegel just joined the expanding line-up in a different thread here. |
Thanks! for sharing- oblgny.
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Just added my virtual system here - OBLGNY'S February 2016 setup! Eek! |
I sent an inquiry directly to Primare and am awaiting their response regarding the 4 ohm spec.
On Saturday I plugged my Astell & Kern AK100 into the cd inputs on my Audio Research LS3 preamp to give the amp a few straight hours of low level operation. Eight or so hours of Lyle Lovett will provide any amplifier with a decent range of dynamics to work with, methinks.
As this is my first class d amp I cannot offer any salient comment about their purported proficiency for good, natural, bass reproduction, nor the class's high frequency " harsh" or "etchy" reproduction. But I do know that my Thiels are opined as having a preference toward the mids and highs that some have found to be...?
This is a good match. I can say without reservation that this amp mates well with my CS3.5's. I'm a happy camper. For now.... |
Agreed-
do not assume anything. Consult Primare or a affiliated dealer/retailer for power output ratings. I wish I knew the answer to your query-unsound & oblgyn. |
Curious that they list the doubling down 4 Ohm rating of their A60 amp (250/500 both channels driven) but not their A34.2. If it's not specified, I'd be hesitant to assume anything. Unless the amp has lots of power to spare, if it doesn't double down, it will compromise frequency linearity with most dynamic speakers such as your Thiels.
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unsound....
Aargh! I'm an idiot. The Primare I just purchased is the 34.2, not the model I stated in my previous post. Either Auto-fill got to me before I noticed or I just flubbed typing it.
In either case, Primare doesn't offer/disclose a 4 ohm rating in a few of their products. Bobby, my main consultant at Audio Den here, and I were equally surprised that they don't.
We're assuming a doubling of the 8 ohm rating, but we'd have to have someone test that.
From this site:
"The A34.2 is a 2 x 150 watt stereo power amplifier utilising proprietary UFPD technology. UFPD’s instantaneous rise time results in a naturally fast, clean and agile sound over a much wider frequency range and with exceptional headroom"
I just googled "UFPD Technology" and there is an interesting pdf from Primare that more or less/kind of explains the ideology.
At any rate, I'm liking it through my Audio Research LS 3 pre....
I will be looking at a BAT VK3i pre sometime this week...
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^I don't see a 4 Ohm spec for the A32.4 on Primare's web site, do you know what it is? |
robinbarbour....
Thanks for the tip! Believe it or not the pair I picked up in November from a fellow member for $350 ( !!! ) is in better shape. They're close enough to my office in NJ to inspect if the seller will allow that. I'd like to get a better visual on the midranges as these seem to be the most subjected to abuse.
My rule with eBay sellers is to immediately check out their "other items", if they're also selling ceramic teapots, extension cords, or clothing I run for the hills straight away.
Right now I am checking out my new Primare A32.4 amplifier that I just picked up a few hours ago. Immediate impression? Well mated to my Thiels. Test recording: "Cyril Davies" off "Why?", Ginger Baker. I just ran a couple of hours of Lyle Lovett through it as well. I'm liking what I'm hearing! |
Right On! prof-
the ole "cable" debate is a good one. System synergy is what really counts, sometimes cabling plays (no pun) a pivotal tole, sometimes not.
An open mind is necessary. Happy Listening!
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jafant,
Benchmark Dac, custom built tube pre-amp and also a CJ Premier 16LS2 pre-amp. Also Eico-HF81 integrated. I like tubes :-)
Cabling...I'm not a "cables" guy (I've had access to as wide a range of cables as you can imagine, due to contacts in the industry, and have found my money better spent elsewhere). I'm using Beldon 10 AWG
speaker cable. (My friend often thinks my system sounds better than his, even when he has $18,000 speaker cables in his system).
I guess that is another reason Jim Thiel's products appeal to me - more of a no-nonsense engineering approach vs the more fringy part of audiophiledom.
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unsound + oblgny,
yes- Threshold and Parasound HCA series power amps still hold up well when matched to a Pass Labs XP-10 / XP-20 preamp!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
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Thank You! prof.
what cabling are you using? The other gear in your system?
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oblgny, I've heard the other arguments, but I steadfastly believe that "backasswards" is exactly how you should build a system! Starting with knowing how much of the contents of the billfold in your back pocket your willing to depart with, to the listening position in your room (where the sum everything before comes together), and the room (don't forget the treatment) is so important, then to speakers (the most colored of components, so make sure that those colorizations are the least objectionable possible) that will vary more in rooms more so than the vast majority of reasonably compatible electronics ever will, to the amplification needed to drive those speakers in that room, then keep going back to the source(s), then to the rack, finally fine tune with cables. If you like Pass Labs, there's a good chance you'll like Threshold, some even prefer the Thresholds. |
jafant,
As I've written before: my CJ Premier 12 monoblocks are driving the Thiel 3.7s very well. If one wanted more "slam" to the sound, especially the bass, I suppose one could go to much more powerful SS amps or something. But in terms of the evenness of sound, and bass articulation it's been a great combination. That smooth CJ sound aligned with the see-through clarity of the Thiels is pretty magical for an "all the detail you could want, presented musically" presentation.
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obigny, Just noticed there is a set of 3.5 on eBay for $495.00 OBO. Right in your neck of the woods. Possible spare parts? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thiel-CS-3-5-Coherent-Loudspeakers-with-Bass-Equalizer-Priced-to-Sell-/151971553058?hash=item236235df22:g:SuUAAOSwpzdWsTzv
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