Thanks! for sharing- cal3713.
how are the (2) amps, XA30.5 and X250.5, different?
Happy Listening! |
Just a quick comment on the Pass amp comment. I believe there is quite a bit of consensus that the X series is least warm of the Pass products. Nelson's amps get a bit warmer as you move from the X to the X.5, to the XA.5, and finally XA.8 (I haven't read enough to feel like I know where the X.8 fall in there). On my Thiel 2.4s, I found an XA30.5 much warmer and more natural sounding than an X250.5. Bass was surprisingly close and I ended up choosing the XA30.5 without much deliberation (despite the community's assurance that it was a bad match). |
Thanks Jafant, I certainly am!
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Hope you guys are having an excellent Thiel week!
Happy Listening!
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Thanks! for sharing- jeffjazz.
it is interesting the variations on a 1st order cross-over and how different they present w/in other speaker designs. Happy Listening! |
Not a Thiel owner but I did own the CJ MF200 amp and currently run a Pass Labs X150 amp. BTW using a Eminent Technology 8A planar speakers which use 1st order crossovers also, and lower sensitivity similar to Thiel.
The CJ amp is warmer in the mids. The bass is strong but not super tight. It images well. The high end is a little soft. The Pass Labs amp has a different sound, not a tube like sound. Very clean and fast and detailed. Both amps will have no problem driving the Thiels. The CJ puts out 250 watts a side before clipping into 8 ohms, and no problem with 4ohms. The Pass amp - even though rated at only 150 watts a side will also put out 250 watts in 8 ohms and no problem down to 1 ohms. You may want to consider trying a Crown XLS amp
The XLS 1500 , 2000 or 2500. They are inexpensive and sound really good for the money maybe better than the CJ. I lived with that CJ amp for many years. My 1st audiophile amp. Happy listening!
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Hegel just joined the expanding line-up in a different thread here. |
Thanks! for sharing- oblgny.
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Just added my virtual system here - OBLGNY'S February 2016 setup! Eek! |
I sent an inquiry directly to Primare and am awaiting their response regarding the 4 ohm spec.
On Saturday I plugged my Astell & Kern AK100 into the cd inputs on my Audio Research LS3 preamp to give the amp a few straight hours of low level operation. Eight or so hours of Lyle Lovett will provide any amplifier with a decent range of dynamics to work with, methinks.
As this is my first class d amp I cannot offer any salient comment about their purported proficiency for good, natural, bass reproduction, nor the class's high frequency " harsh" or "etchy" reproduction. But I do know that my Thiels are opined as having a preference toward the mids and highs that some have found to be...?
This is a good match. I can say without reservation that this amp mates well with my CS3.5's. I'm a happy camper. For now.... |
Agreed-
do not assume anything. Consult Primare or a affiliated dealer/retailer for power output ratings. I wish I knew the answer to your query-unsound & oblgyn. |
Curious that they list the doubling down 4 Ohm rating of their A60 amp (250/500 both channels driven) but not their A34.2. If it's not specified, I'd be hesitant to assume anything. Unless the amp has lots of power to spare, if it doesn't double down, it will compromise frequency linearity with most dynamic speakers such as your Thiels.
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unsound....
Aargh! I'm an idiot. The Primare I just purchased is the 34.2, not the model I stated in my previous post. Either Auto-fill got to me before I noticed or I just flubbed typing it.
In either case, Primare doesn't offer/disclose a 4 ohm rating in a few of their products. Bobby, my main consultant at Audio Den here, and I were equally surprised that they don't.
We're assuming a doubling of the 8 ohm rating, but we'd have to have someone test that.
From this site:
"The A34.2 is a 2 x 150 watt stereo power amplifier utilising proprietary UFPD technology. UFPD’s instantaneous rise time results in a naturally fast, clean and agile sound over a much wider frequency range and with exceptional headroom"
I just googled "UFPD Technology" and there is an interesting pdf from Primare that more or less/kind of explains the ideology.
At any rate, I'm liking it through my Audio Research LS 3 pre....
I will be looking at a BAT VK3i pre sometime this week...
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^I don't see a 4 Ohm spec for the A32.4 on Primare's web site, do you know what it is? |
robinbarbour....
Thanks for the tip! Believe it or not the pair I picked up in November from a fellow member for $350 ( !!! ) is in better shape. They're close enough to my office in NJ to inspect if the seller will allow that. I'd like to get a better visual on the midranges as these seem to be the most subjected to abuse.
My rule with eBay sellers is to immediately check out their "other items", if they're also selling ceramic teapots, extension cords, or clothing I run for the hills straight away.
Right now I am checking out my new Primare A32.4 amplifier that I just picked up a few hours ago. Immediate impression? Well mated to my Thiels. Test recording: "Cyril Davies" off "Why?", Ginger Baker. I just ran a couple of hours of Lyle Lovett through it as well. I'm liking what I'm hearing! |
Right On! prof-
the ole "cable" debate is a good one. System synergy is what really counts, sometimes cabling plays (no pun) a pivotal tole, sometimes not.
An open mind is necessary. Happy Listening!
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jafant,
Benchmark Dac, custom built tube pre-amp and also a CJ Premier 16LS2 pre-amp. Also Eico-HF81 integrated. I like tubes :-)
Cabling...I'm not a "cables" guy (I've had access to as wide a range of cables as you can imagine, due to contacts in the industry, and have found my money better spent elsewhere). I'm using Beldon 10 AWG
speaker cable. (My friend often thinks my system sounds better than his, even when he has $18,000 speaker cables in his system).
I guess that is another reason Jim Thiel's products appeal to me - more of a no-nonsense engineering approach vs the more fringy part of audiophiledom.
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unsound + oblgny,
yes- Threshold and Parasound HCA series power amps still hold up well when matched to a Pass Labs XP-10 / XP-20 preamp!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
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Thank You! prof.
what cabling are you using? The other gear in your system?
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oblgny, I've heard the other arguments, but I steadfastly believe that "backasswards" is exactly how you should build a system! Starting with knowing how much of the contents of the billfold in your back pocket your willing to depart with, to the listening position in your room (where the sum everything before comes together), and the room (don't forget the treatment) is so important, then to speakers (the most colored of components, so make sure that those colorizations are the least objectionable possible) that will vary more in rooms more so than the vast majority of reasonably compatible electronics ever will, to the amplification needed to drive those speakers in that room, then keep going back to the source(s), then to the rack, finally fine tune with cables. If you like Pass Labs, there's a good chance you'll like Threshold, some even prefer the Thresholds. |
jafant,
As I've written before: my CJ Premier 12 monoblocks are driving the Thiel 3.7s very well. If one wanted more "slam" to the sound, especially the bass, I suppose one could go to much more powerful SS amps or something. But in terms of the evenness of sound, and bass articulation it's been a great combination. That smooth CJ sound aligned with the see-through clarity of the Thiels is pretty magical for an "all the detail you could want, presented musically" presentation.
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obigny, Just noticed there is a set of 3.5 on eBay for $495.00 OBO. Right in your neck of the woods. Possible spare parts? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thiel-CS-3-5-Coherent-Loudspeakers-with-Bass-Equalizer-Priced-to-Sell-/151971553058?hash=item236235df22:g:SuUAAOSwpzdWsTzv
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unsound...
Yeah, I have seen a pretty good amount of Threshold pieces about the inter-web thingamabob but my skepticism about their provenance has kept me from actually dipping my toes in the proverbial waters. Price wise they're certainly in my wheel house.
My guys around the corner just told me that they have a BAT VK3 preamplifier coming in soon - not certain of the exact model number - that they'll let me have for about $1k. I've never had but always wanted to check out their stuff and maybe this is the perfect opportunity to tube front a class d amp!
What this all comes down to is that I am building a new system around my LOUDSPEAKERS - which some people here may think is backasswards...but what the heck. I moved my Maggie 1.7's out and haven't looked back, but when I have my original CS 3.5's to my nephew I haven't been able to look forward. Thiels are THAT good. |
Guys,
I am seriously on the same fence, CJ or Pass labs, as to my electronics selection for my Thiels. Which cd/sacd players are you "digital" guys using. I have a small collection of about 3000 cd and sacd titles! |
^Not at all surprised that the AR pre imparts less warmth than the c-j pre.
I too am a Pass fan. Perhaps you might enjoy Pass's previous products: Threshold. Which were reputed to be used by Jim Thiel when developing these earlier Thiels (& Pass used Thiels amongst others then too). Good examples should be considerably less expensive than more recent Pass Labs. Keep in mind that these older amps might need some refreshing: caps, bias, etc.. |
unsound...
Funny, I'm not getting that CJ "warmth" from the 200 as much as I did when I had the MF2100 a few years back, but then I was also using a CJ preamplifier - I forget the model number - that, I think, imparted that perception of warmth. I've been hooked on Audio Research for my preamplifiers ever since. For me they seem to mate well with just about anything I've hooked up to it, the only exception being a Musical Fidelity amp which was so colored it makes a CJ look like its black and white.
As the contributors to this post know, "Thiels reveal" - everything in the chain associated with driving them. I'm SO bloody sorry that I sold my Pass Labs X150.5 I can't begin to tell you. Unfortunately the price has pretty much skyrocketed new/used or refurbed - double what I paid Mark at Reno Hifi for mine currently!
As my previous post documented I returned the Primare because I could not use it with my Thiel's eq. I NEVER return anything. I was offered a pair of Paradigm Prestige 95F's from my dealer at a silly price, and though very tempted I refused.
The only way I will part with these is when someone can pry them from my cold, dead hands!
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I suppose the MF200 would sort of qualify. I'm a fan of c-j ss. I ran an MF 80 with CS 2's (Thiel's easiest load) when I had a smaller room years ago. The c-j's don't quite double down the same way, and the bass isn't quite as tight. A small bit of c-j warmth coloration seeps through, but that isn't exactly unwelcome with these older Thiels. The c-j ss amps match very nicely with most tube pres as well. C-j's own ss pres are quite nice too. BTW, I found the Goertz Alpha-Core MI series cables to work beautifully with c-j and Thiel. I keep an eye on Class D, though I haven't heard all the latest. Conceptually I love the idea, and while there are differences amongst them, I find the treble curious on all of them. Is it because I'm not used to such a clean presentation, or are they lacking in harmonic extension? I'm not really sure. What little there is of published measurements are not especially encouraging. I hope I can look forward to your sharing your impressions of them, especially with the 3.5's!
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Unsound....
Not petty at all regarding my misnaming the Thiel eq. Part of my pair's provenance, as related to me by the fellow member whom I bought them from, is the possibility that Jim himself handled the eq when it was sent back for a very minor service. The route you suggested just doesn't work - we went over everything and decided I'd give it back for a full refund and I'd get the amp instead.
So so far as "old iron" goes...does a Conrad Johnson MF200 qualify? I had this going as well through my ARC LS 3 ss preamplifier - noice, indeed!
Even though Jim eschewed the class d category I'm still forging ahead with the Primare amp, which will undoubtedly have me looking for a nice tube preamplifier - a set up I'd used before with the 3.5's. That was a Pass Labs X150.5 with an ARC LS 2 pre - perhaps the best I had. C'est la vie ... But the Thiels remain. |
oblgny, At the risk of appearing petty, the 3.5's come with an external equalizer or bass booster not a cross-over. Though the smooth impedance rise with it's insertion mitigates its total demand on amplifiers, it does put added demands on amplifiers none the less. The point being, extra power can be quite beneficial with these particular speakers. It appears as though you might be able to use the Primare i22 with the 3.5's if you aren't using the tape loop for anything else. Though it was some time ago, and the state of Class D amps might have progressed since then, Jim Thiel once told me that Class D amps were only suitable for subwoofers, and not competitive with traditional amps further up the frequency range. If you like to try different gear with your Thiel 3.5's, I suggest you consider some iron fists in a velvet glove old school high out
put big iron: Krell, Threshold, etc. |
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Primare gear is too rolled off for my taste. |
Where are you located -oblgny? |
Here's some food for thought...
For the past twelve months or so I've been buying/selling equipment like I'm going to the chair. 2 McIntosh pieces, Von Schweikert speakers. etc. etc. etc. Ridiculous!
Somewhere in the middle of last year I purchased a Marantz TT-15 turntable. According to my sales guy Bob at Audio Den in beautiful downtown Lake Grove, it's essentially a Clearaudio unit badged with the Marantz logo. (There's really no downtown here, nor is there a lake, nor a grove.) Having never had a "true" phono preamp other than those little pro-ject or other manufacturer small boxes, I was able to scoop up a Primare phono stage for a very nice price used here on the 'Gon. IMHO, an excellent phono stage. I like the brand.
Anyway, I went back there the other day just to see what's new and I was convinced to buy a Primare i22 integrated...It's a class d amp which can put out around 160 watts into 4 ohms - sufficient enough for my listening levels. Primare builds everything from the ground up, nothing inside it is outsourced like so many other class d amps.
Unfortunately, there was no way to hook up the CS 3.5's crossover to the integrated...so back it went. I can't believe I returned something because I might have to part with my Thiels... |
I just noticed that Thiel has a Facebook or Tweet account. Perhaps you can get in touch with them there,
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Nice thread! I've actually been thinking about "where are the Thiel owners these days?" as well.
I was on here quite a bit last year as I fretted about which set of Thiels to buy. Huge fan of the old CS6s, and struggled between buying a second hand pair of the "newer" 2.7 or 3.7.
I ended up with a nice pair of 3.7s from audiogon and have had a great time pairing them with my CJ monoblocks and even sometimes with my tiny Eico HF-81 (flabbier bass...but oh that huge, golden Eico midrange combined with the Thiel clarity and transparency is pretty magical).
I've got them working very well in my smallish room, very even sounding, no bass bloat. But at this point I'm wondering if I might have been better off with a pair of 2.7s that I had been interested in. They had my favorite composite ebony finish. They would have probably been a better fit aesthetically for me.
So sad the real Thiels are no longer....
(And the Thiel website doesn't even seem to be up to date or working either. I wonder how they are doing).
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Many Thanks! Carmenc.
I know you will return to Thiel someday. |
I missed most of this posting until now, but reading al of it I must say it is good to hear some of the comments that confirm some of my feelings about Thiel speakers....namely the older models. One comment was from a member that owns both the CS6 and 3.6 - he preferred the 3.6. There are a lot of favorable mentions of the 2 2. I myself own multiple models and use in 5.1 and 2 channel systems. I have a couple smartsubs, four PCS, three MCS and four 2 2. Some of these are extra (Back-up) because I never want to be without Thiel in my system and after Jim's passing, in my mind the legacy ended. My point is, that even though the 2 2 has given way to newer models, I can't seem to let myself part with them. They sound so good that it is not worth selling since they are WAY undervalued in the used market. I have no room for this stuff! How do people part with something like that and not have regret?
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I've had good results with Harmonic Tech and Acoustic Zen, namely the Sartori. They added a warmth and fullness to the Thiels. I eventually switched to MIT magnum during my last year or so with my Thiel CS 2 2. Both brands worked really well I felt depending on which amp I used. Hope that helps. By the way, I miss my Thiels. They certainly may be in my future again if I get a larger listening room. Take care Jafant and enjoy your journey!
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I'm something of a fan for Anticables, but I'm now using Goertz Veracity cables with bananas all around. Anticables have a habit of becoming loose when I occasionally have to move the speakers. They're very stiff.
(I just bought a Primare i22 integrated, class d amplification, 120 watts into 4 ohms...)
I actually prefer the Goertz cables a little over the Anti's, I believe they offer a somewhat fuller resolution overall, with the Anti's perhaps being a little brighter.
But then again, I like "bright" sonics in my speakers. I haven't cared much about a few hertz here or there in the lower registers since I dismantled my 10+ year old Klipsch CF-3 speakers a few years back. My 3.5's are 20hz-20khz - the whole megillah.
Long live Thiel!
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Guys-
which other brands of Speaker cables are you using and/or have tried with your Thiel loudspeakers? Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Having a local Transparent Cable dealer/retailer is sweet!
These are very fine cables and cords that get better the further one goes up their chain of products. A very generous upgrade program as well.
Keep me posted & give a shout-out to your local Audio shops!
Happy Listening!
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Right On! guys-
no need to tilt these speakers nor raise them above their respective outriggers. It is all in the design by JT. Keep the info flowing.
Happy Listening!
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The bottom placement of the speaker terminals might be nuisance when auditioning cables, but once one's decided upon their favorite cables, I find their unobtrusive appearance and the hidden from children, pets, etc. a bonus. I would think again about raising the speakers. BTW, why travel to get cables when cables can come to you; http://fatwyre.com/ http://www.usedcables.com/
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use the Vandersteen manual to pick locations. very similar design philosophy w Jim. ignore the tilt, taken care of for you w sloped baffle, but the slope creates the limit of the 9-12' ish sweet spot. just design trade...
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jafant...
I'm also thinking of raising my Thiels a few inches higher than their bases situate them currently. I read much about Maggie 1.7's here and used similar information to good effect when I had those. (I love Magnepan, too.)
MHO: Thiels are Maggies with more bass...
I don't know if that will improve anything sonically, but it will certainly help in connecting different cables to them. I doubt it will suffer anything, either.
My local store just became a Transparent dealer which saves me a 50 mile trip - maybe even money! I do suggest using spades on the speaker connections since their location and that little tunnel to run them through can be a nuisance with banana connectors. |
Thanks! dar57, carmenc, and oblgny-
very insightful intel indeed. Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
jafant...
I played the CJ MF200 for a few hours yesterday and I can say that it's a pretty impressive amp for its age. CJ doesn't offer a power rating into a 4 ohm load like my Thiels, but with 200 watts into 8 ohms I will assume I won't be stressing either.
Anyway, I'm currently using an ARC LS 3 solid state preamp, and it may be only my aural imagination but I am not getting any of that "warm" CJ sound - which is a positive. (Not that the warmth of CJ equipment ever bothered me.) I thinks its more their preamplifiers that impart that trait in many user's opinions. (I've had other CJ amps and preamps as well.)
I also have a Classe preamp...model number eludes me right now, and THAT imparted warmth. I'll be hooking that up and comparing sometime this weekend.
Overall the CJ and the ARC preamp are a good match. I heard excellent low end response from my Thiels at a very moderate listening level. I sit approximately 10 feet away from my speakers so that's a good thing. I use Ginger Baker's "Cyril Davies" cut off of his most recent release "Why?" as a canary-in-a-goldmine reference since it has dynamics all over the place. I then use some New Orleans jazz - if an amp can render this and that well its a keeper!
PS: I got the amp for under $700...
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You might consider a Belles amp. Perhaps the Soloist 1 integrated even. They have a full, tuneful and robust sound to me that would mate quite nice with Thiels. However, as a previous Thiel owner, I'd go with a solid state amp, think Levinson, Krell, Conrad Johnson, BAT, Classe or Belles. Then add a tube preamp which will help to flesh out the sound from the Thiels. As Thiel's Kathy Gornick was once quoted as saying, " I never heard a Thiel speaker that didn't sound better with a tube preamp." For cables, go Straightwire, Transparent or MIT. Keep us posted and enjoy your Thiels.....they're worth it. Best.
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unsound, jafant, others,
Thanks very much for the encouragement. I think the next step will be to borrow some very long cables from the local shop and try various speaker locations. I am pretty much in agreement with everything said and will post (when I have time over the weekend) any progress. Thanks again!
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