Sounds like a cool concept- I guess this is one of many reasons why the CS 2.4/ 2.4 SE models incorporated a passive radiator to accentuate the 8" driver. I have not heard any of these older models by Thiel- only the most current ones. |
^oops, that's a 10" woofer not a 10' woofer. :-) |
^If I may; it's not a typical eq. It's really a bass only booster. By compensating for the natural bass roll off of the 10' woofers in a relatively modest sized sealed box cabinet Jim Thiel (and others including B&W, KEF ,etc.) was able to make a truly full range speaker with a high WAF. The disadvantage of this approach is a bit more cabling in the loop, and more demands on the woofers and amplifier (more on this later), and of course the rightly or wrongly audiophile thought of anathema of putting more electronics in the path. The advantage is of course true full range bass (!) in a much less expensive to make (well) and easier to sell smaller cabinet. Some have suggested less energy storage, and tighter response from the smaller woofers than would otherwise be necessary as a plus. As for the extra amplifier demands, yes it's true, but in the case of the Theil 3.5's it's not quite as challenging as it might first appear. The 3.5's are spec'd as 4 Ohm nominal, 4 Ohm minimum, and they do have a very smooth steady impedance, but at 70 Hz, the eq gradually starts to put more and more demands on the amplifier to compensate for that typical sealed box roll off, but just as that happens the impedance plot starts to increase and ergo so does the sensitivity. See, quite brilliant. Jim put one small switch on the eq to access bass response to either 40 Hz or 20 Hz to adapt to different sized rooms or musical demands. By musical demands I mean bass volume. Some music such a much popular music doesn't have much below 40 Hz but is typically played very loud in that region, where as other music such as much classical music might go deeper but not necessarily as loud there. The 3.5's can play deep bass quite loudly in typical rooms, but truth be told, one can only bend the laws of physics so far; very loud, very deep bass still needs a much bigger and much more expensive speaker system. As Jim Thiel once told me, unfortunately the eq raised a red flag to many audiophiles with preconceived prejudices. One might imagine that with today's digital room correction eq's this strategy might return, as one could not only dial in accurate bass to anechoic standards, but also to customers individual rooms in the very frequency range most likely to be problematic.
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oblgny-
you have an interesting speaker, interesting design. I wonder how/why Mr Thiel would build and sell a speaker that required some kind of EQ ?
Was he competing w/ Infinity? Mark Levinson Cello? |
I have noticed that leaving the equalizer out completely suffers everything on the speaker. Gonna s'periment!
First I'll try with the eq set at 40, then remove it from the chain. Vedddddy interesting... |
Keep me posted -oblgny
Happy Listening! |
Unsound...
That's what I was thinking more or less as well. I doubt I'll do it because I think the 3.5's bass is damn good as it is. Just figuring if I have the sub.... Boredom!
Jafant...
I like Rel too. Had a couple in the past. |
Oblgny, I'd suggest trying the 40 Hz setting on Thiel's eq and using the sub below that point. This might increase the dynamic range, and "ease". Though the dynamic range of the bass on the 3.5's isn't it's strongest point, overall the Thiel 3.5's stereo bass w/ eq provides better bass than many subs. So much of this depends on your amp and especially your room. |
It would be interesting to hear how a Thiel SmartSub fits into your query.
I am a big proponent of REL subwoofer. Happy Listening!
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Heresy or...?
i just this past Saturday sold a very nice pair of Magnepan .7's that I purchased only recently because...well, I like Maggies, too. (I still have my CS3.5's.)
To round out the Mags low end output I subsequently purchased a Rhythmik L12 sub - which has gotten some very positive reviews.
I also have this for sale here but...doesn't appear to have gained an audience yet.
As you know the Thiel CS 3.5's incorporate an equalizer to extend the frequency response 20hz-20khz which I've found to be wonderful. Cutting the response to 40hz on the eq suffers separation and overall sonics.
My question is...would removing the Thiel eq and incorporating the sub instead offer any benefits and, where would I position the crossover point?
I don't believe in modding anything but since I might not sell the sub too quickly...
Thanks!
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Thank You- frozentundra
at the present time, I only have the speakers, as I am in the process of building my system. I have an idea of where I want to go with it.
There are a few more pieces of gear that I want to demo prior to any
purchase. Yes, they are beautiful! |
Jayfant;
when are are you going to post your system pictures with the 2.4se
they are beautiful speakers!
What are you running them with
Jeff
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As we ramp-up for another Thiel week- Happy Listening! |
Anyone? Hope you guys are having a fun Thiel week. |
Guys-
have any of you owned NAIM gear with your Thiel loudspeakers?
Thoughts? Impressions?
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Thank You- michaeljbrown
that really says a lot, as the 2.7, requires more current to drive than my 2.4s. Should have been model B-135.
Happy Listening! |
I was able to listen to the Bryston integrated (model escapes me) at a dealer showroom in Santa Fe. It was paired with Thiel 2.7's and sounded wonderful.
I wish I had listened to my ears!
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Very nice! I am still considering a B.A.T. integrated amp on my Thiel speakers. There are so many excellent amps in the marketplace, I do not want to make a $ mistake? |
Jafant...
I'm using a Primare R32 phono preamp as well; so far the mating of the B. A. T. with the Primare is a very solid match - particularly with vinyl. The separation is practically magical.
The Primare is still barely broken in as I've been busy with work, listening maybe 6 hours a week. I usually allow the pre about 15 minutes before I listen - seems to show best when the tubes emit a little warmth.
I'm looking at a BAT VK250 listed here now...trying to figure out how the heck I can get it!
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oblgny-
how are you liking the B.A.T. and Primare combo?
About 10 years ago, I demo'ed the then new Primare I22 integrated amp w/ matching cd player on Vienna Acoustics speakers. Not bad at all.
Fast forward to 2016, I believe the model #'s are up to I32 and CD32
combo. The cd player has received much positive Audio press.
The Primare blu-ray spinner is supposed to be excellent as well.
Sanyo makes the laser assembly/drive transport. |
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My pleasure- Guys.
I would like a demo on that Bryston integrated amp- michaeljbrown.
Can you tell me more about your audition? I concur that Transparent cabling is outstanding. I have never read about Sanders, though?
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I used Transparent cables; however, after a talk with Roger Sanders, I ordered a pair of Sanders speaker cables and I now use them throughout and have never thought of using anything else.
I have never used Bryston but I am sure they are a good match, as Gary at Thiel spoke highly of Bryston, and he now works for them.
Bryston is not as high current as Krell, Classe or Pass, but I have heard them with Thiel and was very impressed. In fact, I almost bought a Bryston integrated to use with my 2.4's. I wish I had, as I wasted some time and money with the baby Boulder before getting the Krell.
Thanks for the thread jafant! |
Thanks! for sharing- michaeljbrown
Bryston power amps are a sonic match w/ Thiel speakers.
Over your course, which cabling (most important), did you use?
Happy Listening! |
I have really enjoyed reviewing the posts in this great thread. It occurs to me that I have a few observations about my long association with these great speakers. The first is that quality power is the most important ingredient in the enjoyment of Thiels ; I say this after realizing that much of the time I was not supplying enough power. When I finally purchased an EAD pm 2000, a 5 channel beast with 400 wpc, I saw what I had been missing. I used the EAD with my 2.4's until I was able to have a separate 2 channel system. Even then, I was underpowered with a Boulder 350 (a budget Boulder)..but when I finally hooked up the fpb 300 Krell...Bam. Magic. I then twisted off and bought a pair of CS 5's, which I found to require an enormous amount of power. I talked to Rob at Thiel, who told me they had an FPB 600 with the CS5i's in the sound room at the factory in Kentucky. I was never able to adequately power the 5's, and I would strongly suggest to anyone tempted to buy these at 2000 bucks or so should factor in the cost of a quality (very)high powered amp: I think the Krell 300 would have been better than what I used to replace it: a CAT 500 wpc amp. This was power, but not quality power, and it had a noisy fan, which bugged me. I am now without Thiel 2 channel speakers for the first time since I started this hobby in 1984. I have an all Thiel HT system, as previously mentioned, but now am listening to some big Altec horns atop big Onken cabinets with Altec woofers. I can power these with 25wpc Quicksilver monos, and I do enjoy them. But....that detailed articulate Thiel sound is missing... and I guess I miss it. So I am looking to maybe get some Thiels, and maybe start the arms race again....
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Can I work for you- oblgny? |
Mega millions NY jackpot $330 million. Tuesday drawing. I wagered $1.
If I win it I'm buying Thiel.
Not a pair of Thiels, Thiel itself. |
Kubala Sousna cabling is a sonic match for Thiel speakers. |
Nice! oblgny and tomic601
I have the Thiel outriggers for my speakers. I have read about Sound Anchors products used in lieu of outriggers, though.
A cool project for sure- keep me posted on your tweaks.
1st day of Summer- play the wonderful Jazz standard "Summertime".
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Odd, indeed-oblgyn
So long as the company stays true to us Legacy Speakers owners, that is all that matters IMO. |
Is anyone here aware that there is now an official factory Thiel outlet store on eBay?
Odd, methinks, that a company with a reputation in the audio world as enviable as their's wouldn't consider this site as their first choice? |
Thanks! for sharing- Michael & Robin
Happy Listening! |
Michael,
I just checked out your main system - sweet!
I'm using cj MF-5600 and since I added 2.7's I'm thinking I need more power. I had a NHT Power5 in the system and recently removed it in a search to remove some glare I was hearing. (The cj was collecting dust and I was going to send in for a check up) What are your thoughts on a 5 channel amp? Pre/Pro is NHT Controller and I was thinking of changing out both units. I like a smoother sound and there is nothing out there tubed for processor.
Funny how you make a change in system and then want to change everything!
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I use Thiel power points for rears and power planes as mains, mcs1 center with ss1 sub. I had 2.4's for mains until I sold them. My system is dialed in through the p0x crossover to the pp's & planes and there is more symmetry but I lost the really fine soundtrack music after removing the 2.4's. I have a EAD PM 2000, at over 400 wpc into 5, as amplifier. Great amp, great company.
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jafant, you hit the nail on the head...Silver coated copper speaker cables. I switched back to Kimber 8tc and much better in the glare aspect. It does seem as though I lost some presence though. I never experimented much with cables and started a few months ago. Too many changes as same time....
Does anyone have experience with Analysis Plus oval 8? I'm thinking of going with heavier cables than the 8tc - possibly 12tc. Any recommendation is a |
Regarding cabling, I would not use a silver cable/cord, as it would be too bright for most tastes. |
good to read- robin,
the CS 2.7 is a very fine loudspeaker. What other gear, including cables/cords, is in your system? |
Dan,
You are not a rarity in using Thiel as surround sound. I see a lot of power points for sale and always wondered with Atmos - what it would be like to have Thiel in that lineup. I have 5.1 and use 4 PCS with MCS as center along with SmartSub.
My big news is I scored a set of 2.7's last Saturday and they are wonderful! I'm still tuning, but I'm very encouraged by the sound. Each refinement in the Thiel lineup was an improvement and I never thought I would be able to afford these. Happy as can be!
Prior to this purchase I noticed some glare in certain vocals and still see it. I'm trying to track down the issue. I did change some cables a few months ago, but I think they may have just brought this glare to the forefront. (Analysis plus solo interconnects) I see more transparency with these and think it was there before, just cables brought it to forefront.
Anyone have ideas? I have spares of some equipment and will change some things out to see if I can track it down.
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Thanks! for the update -Dan.
keep me posted on this project and the continued integration of Thiel into your H/T set-up. Happy Listening! |
Well, this goes back a page in the thread, but I ended up cutting out a stud (with the blessing of the contractor that built the wall) as there was a "double stud" next to the pocket door, and I was able to go with standard installation on the sides of the 65" TV. Sounds great.
The new grilles for the speakers arrived from Thiel quickly and nicely packaged. Thanks Mr. Gillum.
To surrounds - so I ended up using a pair of Acoustic Energy Aegis Compacts for my surrounds (at least for now). They have a silk dome tweet, so not as crisp on the high end, but plenty detailed, and with an aluminum woofer, they so far have been a decent match - not Acoustic Energy's higher end line, but curious if anyone has any comments on their compatibility.
I know I am one of the few using Thiels in a home theater set up, but three PowerPlane 1.2's provides a really nice sound, extremely impressive for in-wall speakers. Clarity above all else.
I can also report that the Stratos HT-3 Plus is doing a great job with amplification, despite that I am using a Denon receiver (AV3313) as my pre-pro and that the cable is 14 gauge monster cable. I have not been able to create any distortion even at reference volume levels, and the only time these speakers don't sound great is with bad source material (low quality recordings).
THanks for the info in this thread - any comments on Acoustic Energy compatibility with Thiel sound would be appreciated. I can confirm that Odyssey amplification makes for a nice pairing with Thiel.
- Dan
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Thanks! for sharing the update oblgny.
Happy Listening! |
Just an update...
Just this afternoon I replaced all the tubes in the B. A. T. preamplifier, four 6922 and two 6V6's because having bought it used I had no idea of their length of service. (All Genelax Gold Lions)
Those it came with were GE and Sovtek - perhaps how it was dressed at the factory?
I have to state...wow. Huge improvement. Even at low volume the 3.5's were way more articulate, and Thiels ARE articulate to begin with. When I put some vinyl on the sonics were absolutely over the top - best sound I've gotten to date. The "reserved" nature I previously mentioned regarding the preamp were completely gone. (Primare R32 phono pre)
This is a much better setup now. |
Have a fun Thiel week- guys! |
Hope you find a buyer maplegrovemusic.
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Anyone want to buy a pair of Thiel cs7's ? If there is interest i will list them here on Agon and go through the proper channels so Agon gets their commission . I have the original boxes . Shipping seems to be about $500 to most of the U.S. . They are in MN . |
oblgny-
Many Thanks! for the update. Are you familiar w/ the newer B.A.T. products?
Specifically, the VK-300, VK-300x SE or VK-3000 SE?
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Jafant...
Right now I'm listening to Mose Allison and everything is spot on. The B. A. T. VK3i is one of the best preamps I've owned. True to my intent and hoped for in my expectations is it's definition; the "reigned in" impression I previously mentioned remains, but this is not necessarily a negative aspect with the Thiels. (As some listeners find them a bit too "bright.") I never have and never will. Does it mate well with Thiel? Yes.
The Primare A34.2 is the first decent class D amp I've tried, "decent" meaning somewhat audiophile - my first toe-in-the-water with class D amplification was via a pair of Musical Fidelity M1PWR mono blocks which was a fairly cheap way to investigate the category.
I think I was pretty fortunate to get the B. A. T. for $1k used. It's a bargain. Considering that it's a 20+ year old piece I can only imagine how good the current models perform. As is my usual path in this hobby, moving up the food chain is definitely in the cards sometime this year. |
