I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Flatter is better. I did some careful listening to mens and women's voices comparing the boosted bass mentioned in a previous post (which sounds closer to the bass with the CS3.5 equalizer ) versus the bass adjusted to have a flat response and guess what? Flatter is better. Women's voices are less chesty and Frank's voice is smoother.
If anyone wants to add a sub woofer to his system I strongly recommend one with the measurement and balancing tools similar to those that come with the Velodyne DD series. The auto-balancing feature is not so useful; you really have to get in there and manually adjust the phase angle, crossover frequency, crossover slope and several parametric equalizers as well as the subwoofer volume to obtain a flat response. And you need a microphone and a signal generator and software to display the measured response on a TV or computer screen. All of that comes with the DD series.
Good thread- Dave. Thanks! for sharing. I was not impressed w/ Aerial either after reading so many positive reviews. I wanted to like them do not get me wrong.
I scored a replacement midrange driver for my 3.5s by placing a WTB ad on Audiogon. I soldered it in and voila! no perceivable change even though the mid driver I replaced had three holes on the surround. Since I thought the speakers sounded fine even before I started looking for a replacement there was no surprise. I will send the wornout driver to Thiel when the other one starts to fail. That way there is no down time for the repair. Now that I have the equalizer out of the circuit the other| driver may last forever.
By the way I've noticed a slight narrowing in the sound stage without the equalizer and a little better focus in the image overall. Everything involves a trade-off. For the moment I prefer the extra clarity in the sound to the slightly smaller stage. I have tube electronics so the highs are still smooth.
I also added a little more bass back in the system by raising the woofer crossover point. It may not measure as flat at my listening location but it moved the bass response closer to the original.
great to read! I can hardly await to read about your thoughts/impressions on matching the B.A.T. w/ a Pass Labs power amp! I do not think that I have read where an owner used both brands together. Interesting times indeed.
The main attraction will be the B.A.T. and your Transparent cabling. You may be the 1st to use such a combo. Hopefully ,synergy, will show up and blow you away!
My X-150.5 is enroute from Nevada. Should arrive by this time next week.
Last night I heard my CS3.5's chanting for it, first a whisper, then a scream by this afternoon.
Couldn't take it any longer.
I might very well be DONE this time. I'm going to be more serious henceforth about what I THINK I'm missing with my system.
I'll post a revised set of photos in my virtual systems section upon its arrival. I'll be selling my Primare A34.2 class D amp to offset this re-purchase.
I want to hang out with you, my friend! Luckily, Manley and Pass Labs are sonic matches for Thiel loudspeakers. Additionally, I have read about owners using M.I.T. cabling to boot. A win-win-win- all around.
jafant, Yes I have run an All Spectral system for (20) years. All the required MIT ICs, Speaker, PCs. Currently MIT Oracle MA X. The best cables that I have used! And they love my current system: Manley Steelhead, Pass 160.8s, Avalons. The Oracle's are hard to beat! Yes the Spectral 4000 is a fantastic player. But I am a Vinyl Guy. (83) CDs , approaching (3000) LPs. $10,000 for a used Spectral CD is not an option. 25yr old CD connected to the (1) Manley input w/Oracle's makes CD tolerable to warmup system or listen while doing other things. MIT has updated their line. The Oracles can be had for fair prices on the used market and well worth the price. If you can pay even the used cost. Best Wishes
back to my old friend here- I know you and the Pass Labs will interlude again very soon. Go ahead and grab the amp before the value and prices continue to increase! PL is the best solid state in 2016.
Back to Ginger Baker- I saw the documentary and felt it was wonderful. Besides "cabling" I read -an avid reader on Biographies/Autobiographies on musicians and/or bands. The Beatles lead the way. Followed by The Rolling Stones, The Who, The Grateful Dead...so many others....
While most of these people are/were straight-up entertainers, others, like Keith Moon, John Bonham, Bon Scott and Mr. Baker, of course, have "demons" that make them tick. For better or worse (the ones who died way too early) those demons takes them to unhealthy places and dispositions.
The good news: we will always have their musical contributions! Happy Listening!
excellent point about boxes & packing. I must confess that I did not bring home (Texas to Alabama) the boxes for my 2.4SE speakers. I simply, did not have the room and did want wish to make that wonderful trek w/ the speakers in the bed of my truck.
Turns out the weather was perfect, no rain, that whole trip. Who knew? This is the 1 st time I have ever turned down the boxes. I did bring home the packing, manual and even the plastic bags/wrapping are #'d for this limited edition speaker. Top quality folks!
Jafant... "Cyril Davis" from the album "Why?" is indeed my reference tune when I'm weighing comparisons - that tune with my Pass X150.5 a while back was pretty much stunning.
There's a similarly named cut on another one of his albums entitled "Cyril Davies", arranged slightly differently but they're essentially the same composition. Either version works for me.
I own Baker's Air Force recordings on vinyl, all of his latter and latest efforts on CD. I started revisiting his stuff after seeing the documentary "Beware Of Mr. Baker" about a year ago or so on some cable channel. It's quite an unflattering portrait of a very strange individual. Such a nasty man.
What surprises me all the more is how brief his time was with Cream and Blind Faith, yet that will certainly be the headline on and the bulk of material contained in his obituary. There's some pretty good stuff to be had during his post-rock days. "Why?" is quite good all the way through.
I'll say it once last time - I am a total idiot for letting go of the Pass. I. Am. A. Total. Idiot. For. Letting. Go. Of. My. Pass. Labs. X150.5.
I promise not to say that again. Let it serve as a testimonial to others whom might be considering a "better" amp for their Thiels.
Guys - just got an email from Rob Gillum in reply to an inquiry. Repair for coax in MCS1 is $250.00. I certainly don't feel this is a bad price. Shipping boxes/packaging for my CS2.7's however is $160.00.....Each! I figured I would get packaging in case they no longer supported, but I'm re-thinking now. I purchased second hand and no packaging was supplied in the deal.
Guys; All that have contributed to this thread have almost made me miss the 3.5s. And even though I have had a Spectral/Avalon system; Occasionally I still thought about the 3.5s. "Until a month ago." I acquired a pair of Pass 160.8s. I drive them directly with a Manley Steelhead. EVERYTHING the 3.5s (PRO AC, Sonus Farber, Wison,Avalon system was and "better" in every way. Have not rolled the tubes yet. As of now; tight, Musical, LOW bass, (no need for an equalizer or sub,) midrange to "die for", Highs shimmer and decay, Everything is natural and present. I am probably at my final "Forever" system???? At least that is what I am telling my wife. She says; she doesn't believe me! But admits that this is the best system/room we have had! I must say that it has taken many years to achieve this and that the Thiels are what kept me going. I surely say; Reference Quality at prices that are unbeatable. Buy a pair of Thiels for my other room? No. (Time to downsize some gear) The Manley, Pass, Avalons - Satisfy!!! Final thought; Vinyl, Tube phono, Class A SS --- RULES !!! For Me. For Now! Everyone, You're a great group! Enjoy your journey! Best Wishes.
jafant, I would concur about timbre. It's a quality I've only heard to the same sort of level in electrostatics. In fact, owning Thiels changed my long held perception that only electrostatics could create that illusion to the same extent.
It's the consistency of the 3.5's that just blows me away. They've handled every type of musical program I've thrown at them with equal aplomb.
I keep coming back to this, but it is a tragedy that Jim's design ideals aren't being adhered to any more. Here was a guy who dedicated his life to better sound and, I believe, took his designs to places that other speakers could only dream of arriving at.
It's the balance of their overall qualities that makes them the best value you can find. I'm constantly amazed by the relatively low prices on the used market, when they trounce so many grandee speakers.
As a natural (The) Cream fan, I must check out your strong suggestion of Ginger Baker's "Why". I know his "Air Force" albums are regarded in the Jazz world.
it is important (to me) in getting the air and space around instruments, right! My Thiels really impressed w/ it inherent timbre- something I never experienced in any other speaker to date. Both Verity Audio and Magico is on my list to demo, at a substantial price increase.
back in the day, I enjoyed the Apogee Slant6/ Slant8 speaker. Thiel reminds me of that design. I have always enjoyed a sweet Ribbon tweeter. Happy Listening!
My living/listening room has a ceiling that slopes from 9' to 17' feet at its apex with sidewalls on the left about 4 feet, and about 14 feet from the right speaker, plus a hardwood floor. Oy vey - a pretty difficult room to get a grip on for any speaker.
In the virtual systems section here I've posted a few photos of my setup. The speakers are positioned about 8 feet apart. I listen from about 10 feet away. They are positioned 8 inches from the rear wall. (I have a stick with markings on it, a "mod" I created in mind after shuffling my Maggies, Von Schweikerts, Totem Hawks, Dahlquist DQ-10's around. Got tired of looking for the measuring tape.)
To wit, my experiments with the eq of the 3.5's in and out and/or with the 40hz setting have borne out leaving it in place is the best FMHE. (for my humble ears) I also noticed that the imaging had suffered when it was entirely removed. Jim knew more about this stuff than I do, so I'm adhering to his philosophy and architectural theories, leaving it in the chain.
One of of the reasons I so enjoy these lies in not having to bother with a sub. More wires, more power, more space.... As I've mentioned in earlier posts my listening level is conservative. I have never pushed these to "concert" levels, and I never will. Just toss in Ginger Baker's "Cyril Davis" off of the album "Why?" at a modest level and see why these speakers can still impress, if not astound.
Naturally everyone’s mileage will vary on this, according to one’s room and equipment, but I just love how the system sounds with the equalizer in the system.
Even with the equalizer on, you could never describe the 3.5s as bass heavy. What I think it brings to the party is a sort of very refined approach that only lets the Thiels dip low when the musical signal dictates. Some might prefer a more generous bass, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but I love the overall voicing with the equalizer.
As I mentioned earlier, I had a bad experience with the KEF Kube in my 107/2s, so perhaps part of my enthusiasm is that Thiel didn’t make the same compromises with their external unit.
Anyway, I’m pleased that you found a solution that’s right for you, which is all that matters.
I feel the need to make some comments on the CS-3.5 equalizer. Mine broke a few years ago. When I sent it to Thiel they said the repair part was no longer available so they sent me a used unit and charged me about $70. That was big of them to do for speakers approaching 30 years old.
This year I decided I would like some more clarity, less haze, so I decided to get rid of the equalizer. I remembered the old Stereophile review where the writer suggested the equalizer had some compromises. So I bought a Velodyne DD12 sub woofer last summer. This has some excellent measurement and balancing tools. I found that my original Thiels wth the equalzer had a bump in the bass response at about 40 hz in my room at my listening position. I am not willing to rearrange my room for the sake of my audio proclivities. The Thiels without the equalizer still had a bump at 40 hz. I set up the sub to flatten out the response curve in the bass. Subjectively this gave me less bass but it gave me more clarity across the board including the bass.
Today I went back and put the equalizer back in the system and removed the sub to see if I still felt the same. I found on a jazz album that had some heavy kick drum and string bass that with the equalizer set at 40 hz. the bass was overwhelming and it rang longer (boomy?).. I found that on choral music the sopranos were slightly smeared with the equalizer. On orchestral music the bass seemed a little heavy and the strings were not as clear with the equalizer. So far I haven't found any downside to replacing the equalizer with the sub woofer that I selected. Bare in mind that I have a difficult problem with my room setup.
Using the sub I got rid of the equalizer from the signal path, flattened out the bass response, and took some load off of my tube amp (ARC VT100). I did put a high pass filter in the signal to the Thiels but this appears to be done with a passive filter instead of an active filter since I get the same signal out of the sub with or without power to the sub. A passive filter maybe does less harm to the signal than an active filter that has transistors or opamps. I now have an equalizer in the signal path to the sub, but I surmise that an equalizer at these low frequencies is probably less audible than one at high frequencies.
So for a thousand dollars I feel that I made an improvement in my system that I would have had to pay much more for if I had upgraded to different full range speakers. I can't recommend this as a good upgrade for all CS-3.5 systems since I was starting with a troublesome room and a relatively low-powered tube amp that may be wanting in the low end department. I do feel however that getting rid of the equalizer should be strongly considered. Try playing music with no bottom end without the equalizer and see if strings and sopranos aren't a little cleaner.
Hi Dave, well I guess that's pretty reassuring. It would indeed be tragic if Jim's designs were allowed to succumb to the ravages of time. I dread the day when I have to look for another speaker.
The subject of how long Rob will be able to keep the Thiel servicing going is one that should concern all us owners. It’s pretty clear to me that the new Thiel lords and masters aren’t adding any value into the business, in terms of innovation, indeed I haven’t read in any forum that anyone actually owns a pair of these rather ordinary looking new models, with their anonymous "me too" design.
It’s to the new company’s absolute credit that the servicing has been allowed to continue, as that at least provides some connection between old and new, but how long will this very optional indulgence be tolerated? Especially if the new speaker range isn’t successful, and quite frankly I struggle to see how it can be, certainly at the ambitious pricing.
All that being said, I haven’t heard the new Thiel range, but as they appear a very conventional design thats done away with the coherent source concept, long experience of the ways of this industry suggests there is little room for optimism, but I am hopefully wrong, because their success means that the service department can continue without creating too much cost cutting attention.
I have only had to deal with Rob once for a new set of spikes and, apart from being a really nice guy, he is clearly now the world authority on all things Thiel.
The major likelihood for most of us is midrange rebuilds from time to time (that was what Rob said, indeed), for which he quoted me $300 each earlier this summer. Mine are fine right now, but it’s clear they’ll one day need some attention and I’m seriously considering just getting them rebuilt ahead of the need to give Rob a little more business.
Other than that it will be a matter of someone else being entrusted to rebuild them and I can only imagine that being a compromise, to some extent at least.
As I posted early on this thread; I owned Thiel 3.5s. Flew to Seattle, WA from Juneau, Ak then ferry to Bainbridge, Island, then drove to Silverdale, WA. Auditioned them at "Nuts about HiFi" with a pair of large Krell monos which I could not afford but sounded Wonderful !! Bought them, knowing that I had MY speakers! Air freighted them to Juneau. Only the grill frames were damaged. Kathy Gornick sent me a new pair include shipping for $70. Visiting family in Chicago for Christmas, I bought a pair of Forte' model 7, class A monos. Were not the big Krells but were CL A. Still own them. Kept me very happy through the long winters. Blew midrange and tweeters (seemed at least (1) each year.) Kathy would send the needed driver before I could get the damaged driver sent to her ; under warranty / no charge. Thiel will never be the same again w/o Kathy and Jim. Played the Thiels with and without the equalizer. Mostly liked them with the eq at 40; 20 made them too muddy. Finally moved back to Chicago. Packed the Thiels in my van ( was not taking any chances w/ MY speakers! Finally got a Spectral system ( DMC 12, pair of DMA 90s used as bridged 200 watt monos) MAGICAL combo! No longer used the equalizer. When Kathy sent my last midrange driver with a letter saying this would be my last driver under warranty after a full 10yrs ( I bought them used) I sadly sold them to a guy that was very happy after a (1) LP side audition. Took me 8-9 years to finally settle on the Avalons I now own. Reading this thread; as long as "Rob" works and is allowed to work; Thiel owners should be OK. But I would start my search for a new pair of speakers before he is gone. Without Jim and Kathy, Thiel will never be the same. Will take time to find a new speaker! Suggest you might start with Avalons.
The CJ 350 Premier was the company's last, great solid state power amp at $10K retail. My audition was mated w/ CJ ACT2 Series2 preamp, Eggelston speakers and Audience cabling all around. One never forgets that kind of demo.
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