I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
The following observations are based on my related equipment, room conditions and personal taste. I am not a reviewer and sure as heck don’t have golden ears.
I purchased my Thiel CS 6’s new around 2000 and used these amps over the years:
B&K M200 Sonata Mono Blocks, they were anemic.
Krell 200 FPB Stereo, lots of bass punch, accurate in the midrange but the high frequencies were bright. I added a tube pre at that point and that tamed the glare slightly. Great amp for Megadeth but only so so for Mozart.
VTL 300 Deluxe Mono Blocks, they warmed up the high frequencies and added depth to the mid range but the bass was now incidental. At first I used SED Winged C 6550 power tubes and later used GL KT-88’s. I used this configuration for a few years before adding a Thiel SS1 subwoofer with the Thiel CS-6 passive crossover.
At this point I was getting tired to the maintenance requirements and tube replacement cost associated with older tube amps and started to look at going with SS amps.
Bryston 7B SST Mono Blocks, These amps (may not be the 7B, it was a long time ago) sounded nice but lacked that WOW factor. The Bryston’s were on loan from a friend who sold them soon after I returned them. He later loaned me his next amps.
Classe CAM 350 Mono Blocks. These amp were the best SS amps I’d used with the 6’s to date. They lessened the slight high frequency glare and the midrange was very close to the VTL amps and the bass was ever so slightly laid back. I returned the loaners to my friend and purchased a pair.
I kept the CAM’s for a year or so, switching between them and the VTL’s. It’s true once you've gone tubes it’s hard to go back, so later I sold the CAM’s.
Also, I tried pro audio amps: Crown and QSC. The best I can say is, not to my taste.
Note: the pre-amps used were as follows, ADCOM GTP-400, Audio Electronic Supply AE-3, ADCOM GFP-750 preamplifier, VTL 2.5 and my current Musical Fidelity A308cr. The nice thing about the ADCOM pre’s was the benign presentation, they add little or no colorization, so you really get a feel for what your up and down stream gear is performing.
These days, I use VTL 450MKII Mono Blocks which are pretty low maintenance for high powered tube amps with my B&W 801 Series 3 speakers. So, the Thiel’s collect dust for long periods of time but when in use, they still have the magic.
I've stumbled across a few ads for the Thiel eq's over the last year or so but didn't bite only because, well, I have one already. (Obviously not thinking that I needed another, and as obviously not thinking to have a back up just in case...) Suffice it to add that I am now on the hunt in order to undertake the s'periment that you outlined below regarding having them modded into monos with XLR connections. Intrigued as hell, I am indeed. This will occur if and when I am able to locate another, a relaxed "to-do" line item for me.
They go for around $100 from what I recall. That's a cheap investment. I do not have any reference point to guesstimate the final cost of doing so, but if I can have the work performed on both for around $500 methinks that's a meager expenditure considering how much I enjoy these 3.5's. My local audio store here in Lake Grove NY referred me to a tech that they use when I bought a used Conrad Johnson MF200 amp a little while back.
Wow! I forgot that I put that in for service before the summer! I have to go get it!
Anyway, a few posts below I mentioned that I purchased a Khozmo passive preamp from a fellow member here just for the absolute hell of it. A couple of years ago I s'perimented with a Reference Line Audio Preeminence One B Series II passive preamp with a different amp and speakers and...I actually forget what I thought of it at the moment.
The Khozmo has two outputs and three inputs with no markings whatsoever. No manual, either. It's actually a well constructed piece of gear. I hooked it up with the Thiel eq in line.
I've decided that the most accurate description of my Thiel CS3.5's is "articulate". What I imagined would happen by slotting the Khozmo in for the moment happened. (Pass Labs X150.5, Khozmo, Thiel CS3.5's.)
There definitely is a more pronounced etching of the highs which the Thiels already excel in providing, and I must confess that I favor speakers that offer such to begin with. The "etching" I described above is not meant to infer that I sense a harshness in those frequencies. Perhaps the most accurate description I can relate of the Khozmo's impact is its absolute lack of adding anything of color whatsoever. As I've said before I find Thiels to be "colorless" unforgivingly revealing loudspeakers, as well the same for the Pass Labs X150.5 amplifier. This was a fun little s'periment. I'll be keeping this little preamp along with the BAT VK3i.
Sometime this coming week I'll rotate the BAT back into place using the tape monitor inputs allowing me to use the balanced connects between it and the Pass. I already tested that option before tossing the Khozmo in and it worked fine.
Like I said, once I locate another Thiel eq I will undertake your suggestion to have the mods performed. Should be VERY cool, indeed.
I forget whom the fellow member here is that prefaces his ads with the phrase, "Get ready for hi-fi fun!", but since joining this community and more specifically this thread, I have indeed been having hi-fi fun.
I have Thiel CS-6's with the SS1 and passive crossover. Over the years I have used them with a lot of great amp. They perform best with high current SS amps. That said, they do very nicely with high powered tube amps too. I hooked them up last Thursday because I was considering listing them for sale. They have been collecting dust for the last few years. After a few hours of listening, I am reconsidering listing them.
"we all hear differently." I couldn't agree more! When moving up the c-j line of pres often times the output impedance moves up too. Making system matching more of a concern, especially with many ss amps, even more so with amps like the Pass Labs with some having rather low input impedances. And, of course no c-j product has balanced connections, which the Pass Labs seem to work best with. While I can certainly appreciate the charms of tubes, I'm not convinced they are the panacea some might suggest they are. But then again, "we all hear differently."
we all hear differently. Sure, most tubed power amps do not double down, for this remedy, a SS power amp and tubed pre-amp will work out nicely.
Until I hear a better model, the ARC Ref5 SE is the best tubed pre-amp in the marketplace currently. Pass Labs is the best SS power amp at this juncture. Happy Listening!
Jafant, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. "...Electric guitar/electric Bass guitar-driven music..." unto itself typically doesn't go below the first octave where power demands are usually the greatest. Any of the Thiel's made after the 3.5's either/and drop below 4 Ohms and have a phase angel that the vast majority of tube amps don't have the current capability to deal well with. Tube amps when faced with such a load not only don't double down, they very often actually lose power potential. Tube amps will need to provide multiple times the equivalent ss Ohm rating. Very high powered tube amps can get saturated and start to have their high frequency capabilities compromised. Furthermore, tube Watts typically cost quite a bit more than ss Watts. Not exactly the best value. While tube amps do tend to distort more gracefully than ss amps, I'd rather avoid the distortion all together by getting more Watts for my dollar with ss amplification. I've head c-j tubes with many Thiels, and while they do seem to have a lovely upper bass to midrange quality (amongst other things), it's a quality that distracts one from realizing the bass can be quite loose. But just as when one see's through an optical illusion, once it's noticed, it's presence can't go unnoticed. c-j ss are lovely amps that have many of the c-j tube amp qualities and after considerable auditioning between both on Thiel's, I actually bought and ran ss tubes with Thiel CS 2's (most durable and easiest load of any Thiel ever made with a 6 Ohm nominal/ 5 Ohm minimum load). A perfectly lovely combination. A word of caution though while certainly adequate with other Thiels, the larger ss c-j amps don't quite produce the doubling down current capabilities of some of the competition.
oblgny, Of course as I alluded to earlier, even better, if you could find another 3.5 eq, it shouldn't be too difficult for a qualified tech to convert your now 2 eq's to balanced mono configuration. Then you would avoid the conversions, extra lengths of interconnects, have greater stereo separation, and avail yourself to extra inputs/outputs of your BAT. Another option would be to find a digital room correction device with equalizer function and balanced inputs and outputs. The additional advantage of which is that you could tune your speakers bass output to the your specific room rather than Thiels anechoic one. Something I've been considering for some time. Unfortunately I have yet to find such a budget friendly device with equalizer functions that expand to the 12 dB range that the Thiel unit goes to.
^i still recommend doubling the 8 Ohm power rating when using a tube amp compared to a ss amp with speakers like your 4 Ohm minimum 3.5's and even more with later models that have impedances that drop even lower. Personally I prefer quality ss with their inherently superior frequency linearity and subsequent timbre accuracy. Others might prefer the the even order harmonic distortions of tube amps over the odd order harmonic distortions of ss amps. Pick your preferred poison :-).
^You can use two short (1/2 meter (?) lengths of RCA) lengths for the eq tape loop. After which you might very well find that less expensive runs of balanced interconnects out perform more expensive single ended interconnects. Heck, a good portion of the expense of the BAT and Pass is due to the extra parts and labor of their balanced design that makes them perform as well as they do.
You've been more than a great source of information regarding my, and other members Thiels here. In fact you were the first to make me aware of the continuing service on their legacy products which helped me rebuild one of my midrange drivers on my first pair of 3.5's. You also explained why 3.5's can be driven with a lighter weight tube amp due to the speakers more consistent load presented to the amp...
Tomorrow morning I'll be s'perimenting with the tape aspect suggested with my BAT in order to gain the full benefit of using XLR connects between that and the Pass, as a result keeping the Thiel eq in the chain. I will also attempt the same with the Khozmo passive, albeit with unbalanced connects.
Oblgny, have you tried using the tape loop on the BAT? You'll get a lot of the noise rejection benefits of the balanced cables that way. Besides, both the BAT and the Pass work best with balanced out/in.
The khozmo passive has two outs and three inputs. I'm working on that tomorrow morning. With the BAT I'll simply stick to the unbalanced connects in order to keep the eq in.
the main factor I want to experience regarding PL amps, I want to demo the integrated model(s) for a comparison against the separate pre-amp/power amp combo.
As always, very helpful- oblgny. I will probably seek out an opportunity to demo the Pass Labs amp, prior, to any purchase. Specifically, I want to demo the .5 and .8 amps to discern a difference (if any exists).
Keep me posted as you massage your PL into the rig. Happy Listening!
I see the listing is from a fellow member with 100% positive feedback here, AND he bought the piece from Mark @ Reno where I've bought my 3 units. Very good retailer.
It it seems like a fair price overall but you would be the 3rd owner without the benefit of any warranty. Mark covered the shipping on my second X150.5 in recognition of my return business. (Or my idiocy for selling off my first. He laughed when I related my story.)
The listing you saw would incur another $75 in PayPal fees plus shipping and insurance which would add approximately that much, bringing it to at least $2650? This thing is HEAVY, thank god for those handles on the rear.
Why don't you drop Mark a line and get on his "waiting list" for one? I've read your post wishing for your system to come together by 2017...
For the record, I'll be turning 60 in another month give or take, so while I'm not compiling a bucket list I do think I've more or less hit upon a system that I can't do a helluva lot more with in terms of my definition of "excellence." I consider myself rather fortunate to have discovered Thiel, and subsequently Pass, and having the resources to explore them both. I'm pretty much done for all intents and purposes methinks. Save for cabling and perhaps preamp explorations, I can't see how much more expenditures could return improvements to a great extent.
..."and you know that you're over the hill when your mind makes a promise that your body can't fill..." Little Feat - "Old Folks Boogie"
My first Pass design amplifier was a First Watt M2 which up until then struck me as one of the most colorless amps I'd owned. Rated at 40 watts per channel into my 4ohm Thiels I assumed having more power, the headroom at least, was a wiser route to head in, especially since I've not let up on searching for a pair of 3.6's or above. There's a pair of 7's listed here for $2200 - but the seller cannot ship!
Within two or three weeks I returned the M2 for a full credit toward the X150.5 which was then $2300, methinks. The one I just got was $2700 with a 1 year warranty and the seller covered the shipping. I've mentioned before how idiotic it was of me to sell off my first, and that won't happen again. I find Thiel and Pass to be extraordinarily well suited for one another.
The M2 introduced me to Mr. Pass's approach to amplification architecture, and I have to add that I find his candor, philosophy, and attitude very refreshing. I've also found that I like buying products from a guy with his name on the box. My appreciation for Thiel at first was the product only, but as I grew more familiar with his story I appreciate these speakers all the more. As I've mentioned before they've absolutely become my reference point for loudspeakers.
Anyway, I believe I had an ARC LS2b preamp at that time along with a cheap Pro-Ject phono preamp. (I like ARC, too.). The difference between the M2 and the X150.5? Sonically speaking I could not discern a difference; all that clean, uncolored, presence was on equal terms for me. Were I to downsize - heaven forbid - I would not hesitate to buy another First Watt amp.
I've been eyeballing a Pass X.01 pre just listed here for $1800, but I can't entirely justify it because a.) I don't really need it and b.) I really like my B. A. T. preamp. And c.) the holidays are here and my girlfriend might kill me if I buy another piece of equipment.
Just for the absolute hell of it I just bought a Khozmo passive preamp and have been listening to it for a couple of days now. I had a passive back in '14 and I should'a kept that. Anyway, thinking how articulate my Thiels and Pass combine to be, I figgered why not toss a passive in the mix? The results?
Wow - with some caveats I'm still wrapping my ears around, but my thinking was well rewarded. Everything's a little "brighter" altogether, but the separation and clarity are what I was hoping for. Heck, $300 for a little s'perimenting is a bargain in this hobby ain't it?
Until I get the rest of my reference system together, namely the gear and cabling, all I do is sit , look at my Thiel speakers and smile, smile, smile!
Extra smiling due to the fact that I might own the last pair of CS 2.4SE
Right On! sitting inside the triangle can provide a glimpse into the Thiel sound. On axis or toed-in, your individual room will play an important factor as to the how(s) / why(s) we choose one over the other.
Keep us posted on your continued placement research.
No question that isolation can play a role in one's system based upon high volume during listening sessions or listening space reflections- Dave. Keep up the research and report your findings for the rest of us.
Thanks for that greeting, Jafant. I appreciate it. And, as you were the one to first launch me on this correct trajectory when I'd first begun, I am grateful. We all may find this funny, but I love this system so much that there are times that (even with system off) I sit and look at the Thiels and smile. :)
What I have found with the 3.5s very recently is that positioning is actually more critical than advertised to get the best bass response.
Of course this is probably very room specific but I've now discovered that sitting just inside the triangle with them as wide apart as my modest music room width allows, with a decent amount of toe in, makes a staggering difference. Previously I had tried positions quite a distance from the Thiels, thereoretically to give them more breathing room. I've found out that, in my situation at least, they don't need it. The 3.5s have effectively disappeared aurally speaking.
As Dave observes above, the bass response is actually extremely tweakable with Thiels.
Although i I didn't think I needed a sub before, I think that is even more the case in light of recent speaker juggling.
You are absolutely correct by stating that I am the biggest proponent for Cabling! 20 years ago I discovered that aftermarket cabling does make a difference and I was not an Audiophile in those days.
I only provide you guys w/ the brands that I have spent some time (usually 3 months) in various systems at various dealers/retailers over the last 5 years during my business travels. During these travels, I would visit said shops weekly and listen to the gear for as many hours as necessary. Luckily, I never had a bad experience. And I can site the dealers/retailers that provided a reference to me. My permanent locale does not afford me w/ dealers/retailers. Cities like Atlanta, New Orleans and Nashville are the closest proximity.
I can see how a Bryston power amp is a sonic match for Thiel speakers. After all, these babies crave high current and Bryston can certainly deliver it!
Tom Evans is heavily favored by many Audiophiles, so it must be an excellent product, I would like a demo myself.
Last, but certainly not in the least is Cabling; my 1st love in our wonderful hobby- try listening to any rig w/o them! No, there is zero doubt in my mind that Cabling makes a positive difference! Odd, funny, thing is that w/ careful selection, anyone can budget their system. My best advice is to get out to the dealers/retailers and listen, listen listen to the various brands. In this particular thread, there exists a wealth of info by your subscribers. Thankfully, we all have various spin(s) on the cables/cords in our systems that make life worth living. Equally important, we do not own identical gear- no fun in that- Happy Listening!
most important of all, is that , we have Rob at Thiel in Kentucky to take care of us older crowd and our legacy speakers. Cheers to Rob! Let's continue to keep him gainfully employed! Happy Listening!
Excellent exchange of ideas, intel and thoughts about our beloved speakers- unsound and Dave. I look forward in your continued contributions. Happy Listening!
Jafant here is a vocal proponent of finding the correct cabling for our equipment. Until I began membership here I had a snake pit collection of various brands that I gave little thought to overall.
It's difficult for me to acknowledge that I've been a member here for only three years - and I mean that in a good way. Since joining this community my system has improved far beyond what it once was.
When I snared my first pair of 3.5's I was using what I would now term Radio Shack 12 gauge wire from a spool, and yet the Thiels literally "wowed" me upon first listen. One of the first "high end" speaker cables I purchased were entry level Anti-Cables from Mr. Speltz. I still have two pairs of different lengths due to changes in my audio stands, both Salamander.
Currently I have Transparent cabling throughout my system. I'd never before compared brands with across-the-board application since it's rather costly to do so, but it seems to be the only method of fairly reaching an opinion.
Today, as a result of your post I am going to reacquaint myself with my Anti-Cables speaker connects. From what I recall upon my first experience they made an articulate loudspeaker become even more so. And that's saying a LOT when it comes to my Thiels.
I have a pair of 3.6s. And I want to say upfront, that I love my system. I was new to all of this, and the 3.6s were the first component purchase. And then the research soon took me to how important it was to power them correctly. So, initially I considered matching it with a Levinson, and called the current Thiel people, who recommended Bryston, which I settled on. At first, I looked at a lesser model, but decided to pony up for a few hundred dollars more and get the 4B SST, at 300w. The preamp was a long painful story, and once again ultimately ponied up a bit more than budget, and got a Tom Evans Vibe. Now some of this stuff is a bit uncommon, but good stuff (and expensive in it's time) but I was patient and got good deals on all of it. After a brief, initial go-round with cables/wires from monoprice, I returned the speaker wires, and began to focus on Anticables and Paul Speltz. I started with speaker cables. (Budget was pretty exhausted at this point.) And then several months later ditched the monoprice RCA interconnects for Anticable ICs, more or less completing the system, which is how it sits now. It was interesting: Through all of this, since I'm starting with no media collection, I'd subscribed to Tidal for lossless. And they have a page at their site where they'll play about six songs, and you choose A/B which one is lossless. If you get most all of them correct, they'll gift you a free month. The interesting thing is, try as I might, I could not succeed in correctly picking these -- until the final ICs from Anticables. Then it was clear; and I got six out of six. I was fascinated at just how much strong equipment I had, and it was that last element that enabled the system to "sing". The next upgrade (who knows when the budget will allow) will be for Anticable power cord. And then a second, for the amp. Yeah, I know I'm starting to sound like an advertisement, but I REALLY like their stuff. What I'd not yet mentioned is that I finished it with an OPPO blu-ray/media server, which I also like very much. Plugged my AppleTV into it, as well as a few terabytes of Network Attached Storage, for lossless downloads, and TIDAL streaming.
In all, I probably went about $500 over original budget for each of the amp and preamp. But I like the match; and really have no question that my current level of quality was driven by the Thiels. But I'm glad for the journey.
Obviously Jim Thiel did not work within a vacuum all those years. I have to assume that he assembled a fine team of craftsmen to assist in bringing his theories to fruition.
My question is, where did they all go when the new regime arrived and chose to abandon all that he worked for? I know a small part of the story already gained from articles on the web, so I guess my question here is does anyone have any further information?
By the way, this thread is one of the most informative and enjoyable ones I've come across here. The comments and suggestions I've received from many of the posts have made vast improvements in my system to date. Intelligent, rational discourse is as enjoyable to me as is listening to music.
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