Thiel Owners

jafant...
Everything is fine here, albeit a bit "On The Beach" for everyone.  I live out in the 'burbs (close to Stony Brook U.) so maintaining the socially acceptable distance between humans is not as difficult as it is for Manhattan residents.  My sister resides in lower Manhattan and her best descriptions repeat "surreal" over and over.  Even out here in the 'burbs the optics can be off-putting - shopping mall parking lots completely empty, playgrounds and small local parks cordoned off with crime-scene tape,  gasoline at $2.09 a gallon!   Aaargh!

I just picked up a pair of Usher Audio X-719 stand mounted monitors whilst I await the sale of my Totem Acoustic Rainmakers.  (My Thiel CS2.4's are committed to)  I have a great deal of admiration for the Rainmakers,  but I discovered that my living room might just be a tad too large for them to truly shine.  I had a pair of these a few years ago with different amplification, so that might also be a contribution.  The X-719's have a slightly larger woofer which has fleshed out the pressurization admirably;  they are ported,  and I do detect a smidgen of bass bloom on some music so I am currently looking to fashion some foam plugs for the ports to see what happens.  (I have posted a pic on my virtual systems page.)

In the past,  among many other things since joining this confounded community,  I owned a pair of Usher's CP-6311 floorstanders which I enjoyed a LOT,  so I was already somewhat familiar with their performance/sonics.  Like the Rainmakers the x-719's are bi-wwire capable and I am awaiting a pair of Bluejeans cables with banana plugs fore and aft - the space on the Rainmakers and the X-719's is a royal pain in the ass to monkey around bi-wiring with spades.  I am now using a pair of non-descript bi-wire cables that I rastled from the snake pit of accessories I keep near the main setup.  And to think I used to just toss things away willy-nilly...

Other than that I have been enjoying the heck out of my Qobuz subscription.  I have totally abandoned Apple's iTunes and its replacement,  Music.  It just stinks.  I've used Tidal in the past and enjoyed it,  but Qobuz is $14.99 monthly for the high-rez while Tidal is $19.99.  Admittedly,  Tidal's catalogue is deeper,  but as I discovered through my memberships on each,  one has slightly differing catalogues than the other in terms of depth,  but that probably has more to do with obtaining the rights/licensing etc., etc.,  etc.  Not a big deal at all considering that I use the service as a complement to my collection,  not a replacement or subsitute.  In the absolute end,  done at near-field listening comparison,  Qobuz just sounded BETTER.

Sheesh - i went on a bit here,  aye?  Chalk it up to the virus and time on hand!

Be well,  stay safe,  and turn it up!

I looked at your systems page ,
you do have 2 GR bi-wired cables !
Base crossover wiring on the bottom and mid/tweeter on top ?

Try taking cable #1 and make it + , both black and red at the amp
take cable #2 and make it - , both black and red at the amp 
at the speaker end take cable #1 black to bass + and red to m/t +
then cable #2 black to bass - and red to m/t -
( I think I got this correct )


Give this a try and let everyone know what you hear .

My amp has only one output per channel but they are Cardas binding posts (identical to what I put on the Thiels) which accept spades from either side. No issue to hookup two runs. Even tri-wiring would probably fit on a single post if your speaker had a corresponding XO.
If I understand your other question, no. And I can longer try that as I sent my jumpers to Tom Thiel for his experimentation.

I have a couple of pics on my system page.

@beetlemania

I believe you said that you have Cardas Golden Reference speaker cables ? 2 pair ?
Do you have 2 speaker outputs ?
If both of the above have you tried using 1 cable for each polarity ?

DIY is crazy , crazy fun .

Rob

Reuben, for historical prices of Thiel speakers you can use hifishark.com

@vair68robert 
 
I chose red and black wires and one of them had a slightly less flexible jacket, making the twisting a bit asymmetrical. Helped to have one end anchored as I twisted at the other. You definitely need to add length. I didn’t take notes on my raw and finished lengths. Maybe add 25%?


I am bi-wiring, not bi-amping. The latter probably results in the very best sound but I’ve been told that most of the benefit comes from the more affordable solution. My wife already thinks I’m crazy. I suppose it’s true :)

Thank You @beetlemania

Tom's solution looks like a more balanced increase in guage ,
than going from 15.5 mids to 11.5 which might be to much .

I"ll have to learn the hand twist +/- to 3 turns per inch ,
how much longer per foot does the twisting add ?
 
I have already worked with Caradas wire ,
I'm using a 96.5% tin , 3% silver and .5% copper bar in the solder pot .

I'm a 97.5% vinyl and 2.5% CD guy
( only because some albums are not available or to expensive ) . 

Do you bi-amp with your bi-wiring ?

Rob

@vair68robert

Cardas Audio recommended 11 ga input on the woofer but Tom T steered me to this solution:
Woofer: input 15 + 17.5 twisted together (effective gauge 13)
output to woofer: 15
Coax: input 15
output 17.5

Note that you have to tin the Cardas Litz. I bought a solder pot for this purpose (Cardas charges $5 per end). PM me if you want my solder pot. Tom also instructed me to hand twist +/- wires to, IIRC, three turns per inch.

The final result was very satisfying. Hard to describe in words . . . Sort of snapped the soundscape into a coherent focus. A nice culmination to all the upgrades I made to the XO.


Also, I used the opportunity to make my 2.4s bi-wirable, replaced the single pair of OEM binding posts (which were partly brass) with two pairs of Cardas CPBP (rhodium over silver). I used Cardas jumper plates to compare bi- vs single runs of speaker cables. IME, the biwire solution sounded more liquid and engaging.


I’m a happy camper. Had my DAC upgraded (Ayre QB-9 Twenty) and that is probably the last change I will make to my system other than to try Tom’s baffle treatment on the 2.4s.

Reubent - a general note: The 2.3 was the first generation of the passive coax. That coax and the woofer were bettered by the 2.4. But the crossover topologies are the same, and many of the values are same or similar. Eventual performance upgrades will apply to both models, and 2.4 drivers should become retrofittable to 2.3s with appropriate XO changes.

@reubent, When considering Thiel’s; leave ample room in the budget for amplification. Not all Thiel’s have the same amplifier requirements. Also consider placement and seating position.  

Hello Thiel aficionados,

I have a friend who is building a new home and he is going to have a bonus room above the garage that will be a dedicated man cave (in the sky). He has asked me to assist him in putting together a $5k system, using new or used components. I'm keeping an eye on the local Craigslist to see if anything pops up.

There is a pair of gloss black Thiel CS2.3 available locally. They were purchased new in 2000 from a local hi-end shop and they have all of the original packaging and accessories. Currently asking a tic over $1000. Is this a potentially good option at this price? 

Thanks for any feedback or guidance. Not locked into Thiel, just searching locally for a good value in a hi-end speaker.

@beetlemania 

I have a question ( and your opinion ) about your guage selection for both the woofer in/out and the coax in/out .
All Thiel speakers used 18awg in and out , Tom Thiel has advised 
increasing the the guage from speaker post to X-over boards ,
which I am planing on doing .
I will be increasing the input to 11.5awg since I am using 9.5awg
Cardas chassis wire for speaker wires .

Question While I've thought about using different gauges to the speakers ( 11.5 to woofers , 15.5 to mids and 17.5 to the tweeters )
do you believe that the different gauges worked for you
( you said you had a smile on your face )
or do you think that using the same gauge ( 17.5 ) as in OEM would have been the way to go ?

I'll be installing 9.5awg and Cardas posts in and on my amp ,
then Cardas posts on the Speakers ( just placed my order for ) .
I plan on replacing the speaker wiring as the first upgrade .


Thanks
Rob

rosami
Thanks for the input on that. For the past 17 years mine have been on a second floor dedicated room, but it was built in such a way that the part where the speakers sat had joists running a short direction of only 6’, which definitely played a part in the rooms interaction. The low midrange hump I was getting elsewhere was gone.

Now, I’ll have them on slab floors (hardwood on slab) and have zero idea how they’ll sound - but assume they’ll be as fast as I barely remember in the shop 35 years ago. I definitely want to try something like the iso-acoustics out once I live with them for a few weeks and get the room more or less tuned.


It’s driving me nuts that they’re literally 5 blocks away from me right now, and with our shelter-in-place I can’t get the movers over there. I’d dearly love some tunes in this big empty house right now! Ugh. I’ve got an old Adcom 555 pre/amp in the garage, I might try doing something as an interim/streaming setup and some inexpensive bookshelves. I’m about Netflixed out!I’ll keep you posted.

oblgny
Hope you and the other guys in the greater NYC area are staying safe.I have a very firm grasp on the kind of Operations currently going on up there. A little downtime is great for catching up on good music.

Happy Listening!

Happy Friday! All

tomthiel
Thank You for the court update. I suspect that those proceedings are on downtime, for the short term,  as well.
Happy Listening!

Must be a contemorary joke and embarresment at  least for the last 28 years here and the country as a whole. Other than Yarmuth who has stood up for the general public for the last 20 years here in the state of Kentucky. Tom

KY sends us our greatest leaders to Congress .Nation could not  live without them .

Unsound - you're right. Tennessee is decidedly the South, where things can move pretty slowly. Kentucky is "a place betwixt and between", with elements of many cultures and none in predominance. Lexington feels like a small cosmopolitan city, whereas Nashville feels like a southern town driven by country music.

@tomthiel, I’m getting the impression that Kentucky and Tennessee have a very different perspective on time.:-)

I spoke to Rob on February 21.  I ordered paint masks and Thiel logos (they stick on and hide one of the screws) for my Power Points I use as front height channels.  I'm going to get the room painted (which is huge as a bunch of rooms connect) probably sometime in the next year or so and wanted to have them on hand.

Rob - I have also been unsuccessful contacting Rob G. Perhaps he'll re-emerge when the virus weakens. Re bankruptcy: I am in contact with the court, which seems to operate on Tennessee Time.

I had talked to Rob Gullium last week and asked him about the
bankruptcy , he said he didn't know anything about it .

I've tried to contact Rob thru e-mail and phone about the
cable mystery ,no answer yet , I hope he's OK .

andy2
Thank You for the update and stay safe. Looking forward in reading about your speaker designs.

Happy Listening!

As as we enter the 2nd quarter of 2020, I was wondering if there have been any recent updates on the THIEL Audio bankruptcy proceedings?

There is a new loudspeaker on the scene in the tradition of Time -
Coherent design- Qln Prestige Three.

I’ve read the review and also the interview with the designer but I couldn’t find any reference to it being "time-phase coherent". He did mention the slanted baffle was made to "time align" the tweeter and woofer acoustic center but that does not necessarily mean a "time-phase coherent" design.
https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2019/12/19/59hvvshkumcd2ft8l8oglik1j7r18c

Also the woofer seems rather large, probably around 7in., which may have an issue running at a higher frequencies to match the tweeter which is required of the woofer if using first order design.  It may explain why most of Thiel designs using smaller than average mid driver.

Anyway, my 2cents.

Good to see you again. Are you building a new loudspeaker?What else is on your radar this Spring season?

I've been detoxing :-)  I've recently converted a 3-way speakers, that previously was designed with higher order filters, to first order time phase coherent which sounds really good.  I am looking to build my own website publishing some of the designs I've made, but so far time has not permitted.  

Guys
there is a new loudspeaker on the scene in the tradition of Time -Coherent design- Qln Prestige Three. This model made a debut at RMAF 2019.

Happy Listening!

andy2
Good to see you again. Are you building a new loudspeaker?What else is on your radar this Spring season?
Happy Listening!

Andy - the baffle angles are similar because the design parameters are similar. But each takes its own particulars into consideration and yields a slightly different resultant angle. Notice that some models have slight wave-guides which differ from one driver and model to another, determined by target radiation pattern to equalize power response through the crossover. Also, distance between drivers makes a difference. Bottom line is whatever angle produces co-temporaneous arrival time at the design target (about 10' out x 3'up x 10° off axis). The CS2.2 has about 11° baffle tilt, others more and less.

Out of curiosity, this question is probably for Tom. As all of Thiel designs using a angled-baffle, do they all have the same angle? What would you say the average angle of the baffle?

I’ve found that about 8 degree has worked well for me.

Rob - I can only speculate. Rob Gillum would know if your wiring was stock or not, since all the 2.7s were built by him in Lexington. I suggest that you query Rob and report back to us what you learn.

These came from Thiel Audio after the move and sell out ,
they were shipped to Tenn. and put into storage .
When the new Thiel went bankrupte they sold the CS 1.7s and 2.7s
they had along with one 3.7 on E-bay .
Serial #s 329 & 330 .

Rob - that sounds like someone replaced your original wire. Thiel wire was unmarked Straightwire (oxygen-free, 3 twists / inch, teflon jacket,etc.) . Did you buy the speakers second hand?

Happy Sunday Tom

I'm glad to hear it was standard practice.

I have CS2.7s  ,  
the wire says " GSC Wire & Cable Pro Speaker Wire Oxygen Free Copper Wire " 18 awg running parellel not twisted  ,
Rob mentioned 3 twist per inch  ,
to bad we can't attach pictures .

Rob

Rob - please remind me what model speakers you have. The separation that you are describing was, in my day, standard practice. We always separated the twisted pairs to reduce capacitive coupling of the wire runs. Has anyone else noticed whether their runs were parallel or separated? I would like to figure out what's going on.

Feeling bored ?
Would you like to make a FREE improvement to the listening pleasure thru your Thiel speakers ?

I went into my speakers to see , take pictures  and prepare for the
re-wiring of the speakers and crossovers , the wire used by
Thiel is 18 awg and is constructed as 2 wire bundles running parallel .
I pulled the wire apart seperating them
and received a pleasant unexpected surprise , 
how could doing so little make a detectable difference , yet it did !

Go into your speaker thru the passive radiator
and pull or seperate the wire bundles apart ,
you can reach the incoming from the speaker post , 
the mid and tweeter up to the first cabinet brace 
and the bass all the way to the speaker .

@tomthiel
Since you gave my speaker cable idea a try and found that 
it offered an improvement you know I'm not being totally crazy with my suggestions.
maybe you could try this on one of your speakers that you experiment on.

Wash Your Hands
Then Listen to the Music
Rob

Arvin - FWIW, the design ear height is 3' and distance 10'. Closer than 10' means greater sensitivity to height. But, some folks prefer the more mellow presentation of lower listening heights.

@tomthiel
Hi, Tom.  That’s the height I get in my new, lower listening chair. Still considering elevating my speaker using butcher-block atop brass cones/spikes, but have settled down for now...enjoyment-factor is just too good!
Arvin

Arvin - thanks for sharing your synopsis. I'm curious how you landed on 30 - 32" seat height.
George - I had hoped you had gotten relief by now! I presently, since December, am struggling with similar symptoms. Reducing electromagnetic fields, especially microwave from wi-fi router and smart electric meter have helped. Brain electro-chemistry is wonderful when it works.
Shubert - Yes Dawn is wonderful. You may have "met" her virtually as Thiel's international sales manager from mid 90s to 2013 collapse.Masi- consider trying to stabilize the speaker on the stand. Three coins (back corners and front middle) serves to unitize the speaker with the base. Please report back. Also, small wire gauge can smear the bass. 

I’m also chasing the last 10% with my Thiel CS3.6’S which sit on Sound Anchors stands (about 1”) off the floor. I’m using 1 spike in the front and 2 spikes in the rear for each stand. Right now, the speakers are sitting g on top of the stands with no pucks or spikes or anything. My bass power is there from my Bryston 4Bsst2 amp plugged into a Bryston BIT-15 power conditioner’s high power outlet. Even though the power is there, a little bit of detail retrieval is missing. Any suggestions on further optimizing them would be welcome.

Happy Friday! All

tomthiel , You must have a wonderful daughter !
I'm a classical man but that piece is the most human clip  I  have ever seen ,.

Once again, I gotta' agree with prof.
I've been in a pseudo self-quarantine since June (no depth perception and zero vestibular balance)'
My 27s, plus sub, are a superb way t0 cope with the isolation.

Once again, I gotta' agree with prof.
I've been in a pseudo self-quarantine since June (no depth perception and zero vestibular balance)'
My 27s, plus sub, are a superb way t0 forget the isolation.