Rob - I knew Tantalums from Bryston's 1980s designs, and checked them out. Not as good as our stock caps. Bryston abandoned them also.
Taking the woofer XO closer to the midrange driver would not be good.Some models would benefit from moving the XO to the cabinet floor, but the bottom is glued in. I've been running around this bush quite a bit. I will say that outboarding the crossover is having wonderful results. In addition to the gain in distance from drivers, add absence of vibration and freedom to mount components in free air, and lower ambient temperature for XO and for drivers, since the XO itself generates heat.
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2 questions
Has anybody had experience with Tantalum electrolytic capacitors ?
And would moving the bass crossover on the 3.6 ( or other models )
up to the chamber of the passive radiator have any effect ?
Thanks
Rob
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The Accuphase E-800 might be something to consider with 3.7s.This beast doubles its power down to 1 ohm !!
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Pass Int-250 is a perfect match for CS 3.7s juste like the Diablo 300.
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Thank you all for your comments and recommendations on my recent posting. I will be following up.
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@tomthiel I was reading a lot of posts all over the internet on Benchmark because I am currently buying some of their gear, including a couple of AHB2's. From what I read, I think the AHB2 gets a lot of respect in the HiFi community. Some people do not like it saying it is too dry for their tastes. Personally, I do not feel that way and love it (I owned it before).
Today, I was speaking with Mike Siau (maybe the son of John) of Benchmark on some issue with my HPA4 preamp. An incredible sounding unit which I am now wondering if I should buy a second unit. There was some minor issue with something and he did some somersaults to make sure things would get resolved ASAP without me missing a second of music. I feel good about supporting companies like this. |
BTW: Benchmark's designer John Siau reviewed the XO schematics and specs and fed back the following:
CS7.2 stereo or bridged, CS5, 3.7, 3.6, 2.4 stereo mode only. That said, I use bridged nearly exclusively without problems. Seems that class H amps hit a hard wall at high current into low impedances. As I've said, I sometimes see flicker, but have never shut one down. |
My amps for comparison include an Adcom 555II, a pair of Classe DR9s bridged and not and a pair of Benchmark AHB2s bridged and not. I do not find the Adcom very musical and use it mostly to drive speakers under test. I like the Classe, but the AHB is my go-to amp. It drives the CS2.2s to beyond my loudness tolerance. Its ultra sensitive overload lights tell me when I'm pushing it, which is almost never. I'd call it just the facts, and all of them, more so than the rebuilt and optimized Classe pair. The ABs are class H with a patented THX topology where the class H regulated power supply drives small class A output stages with feed-forward distortion correction. It got class A from Absolute Sound, and seemingly no cred in the hi fi community. I love 'em.
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The QSC I heard a while back was 2000 watts per chn...and it wasnt class D it was class H. Class H from the late 70s and early 80s was somehing terrible we had from a vendor maybe Hitachi and then even before that Soundcraftmen..The QSC was on Legacy speakers. Tom |
I would avoid Spectral with 3.7s, not a very good match.Hegel H30 is awsome paired with 3.7s, a used Gryphon Diablo 300 is also a great alternative.
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Tom and 'tweak,
Yes, as a matter of fact it was QSC model USA 850. My only critical observation was that it could have had a bit more "filling out" or saturationof the colors. But even so...
Tom, I remember you posting here a while back re the Benchmark AHB2. Do you think this could drive the 3.7s, either bridged mono or single unit?I've been looking into amp upgrades and the shortlist includes Hegel, Ayre, maybe Spectral. But the Benchmark looks very intriguing, especially since that unit would do two things that make me very happy: save a bundle and get better sound. I've spent my life in and around acoustical music in orchestral halls, chamber halls and studios. All I need and desire is (as Jack Webb famously put it) "just the facts, ma'am."
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Often pro audio gear is looked down upon..QSC has made some fine sounding amps..I suppose they could be improved upon with the addition of a few "audiophile parts"..Tom |
Pray tell, what is the amp?
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Just an aside in response to the amp mini-thread that preceded Tom's last post:I've had Thiels in my system since the mod-90s. First the 2 2, now for the last three years, the 3.7. Recently, the sound from the speakers has been breaking up. It sounded like an amp problem (Classe ca-300) but just to make sure I called a friend who works in pro audio to see if he could lend me an amp to swap for troubleshooting. He supplied a 400 watt amp that he uses for PA systems. I thought, oh boy, what will that sound like. But it was a revelation. First, it is my Classe that is going. But ... the sound. At first it sounded a little "thin" but after a few minutes, it was obvious that this was a much better presentation of the material. We listened to Boulez' cummings ist der dichter from the excellent Erato recording and some tracks from the equally excellent new Innova recording of pieces by Jeremy Beck. Everything was in its place and just as it should be, no added warmth or profiling. Timbre, stage, dynamics, transients, balance and placement of instruments in the orchestral sound field all spot-on faithful. That from a nuts and bolts pro audio machine. Quite a few implications here.
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stspur - I second what Beetle says, and I'll add my personal perspective. I haven't lived with 3.6s, but I picked up a pair, thanks to this forum, which I measured and listened to and as mentioned was thoroughly impressed. Regarding upgrade in general, be very careful. Hundreds of man-hours went into selecting and voicing those particular components for the job. You could spend a lot and do worse. But, on the other hand, there are some better components available. First, let's survey what's in there.
The coils would be hard to beat with the exception of foil. But foil might require value tweaking of the circuit, since the resistance to inductance ratio is different for foil. The wire is CDA-101 aerospace grade OFHC with first-class winding.
The resistors were developed in-house and are very good within their budget constraints. But Mills MRAs are better. Safe swap. Consider doubling in the signal path.
Caps are upgradable, especially the lytics. Those VersaTronics lytics are stellar, industrial, long life caps. BUT, film is better. The "S" is indeed Solen. In the day it didn't get any better. Depending on your vintage, they are either made in France or Canada from French film, which was considered tied for best of form with a German film. Later, North American consumption was wound in Canada with same equipment and specs. Great caps. Those yellow caps are a foundation of Thielness. We found and bought a best of form German cap starting with the 2.2 in 1990. They are styrene film on Tin foil @ 1uF (usually within 1%). When the German company went out of business, we bought the remaining foil and film and contracted a California aerospace cap maker for what produced 60,000 caps. When that stash was gone, ERSE made a clone from a world-class Japanese film and foil. Eventually (we found from Beetle's late 2.4SEs) the cap was cloned in China with not necessarily lower quality.
An interesting experiment (which I haven't yet gotten to) would be to replace the 4 parallel yellow 1uF tweeter feed caps with a 4uF CSA or CMR. Clarity's ("C") copper alloy end caps are a game changer. That swap should have no circuitry implications. We would all love to hear the outcome.
As stated, electrolytics may drift over time and their sonic signature is less than best. In Thiels they are always bypassed by the yellow styrene / foil 1uF. But you could upgrade to CSA in the series feed circuits - the parallel shunts are meaningful, but less important and harder to justify for space and expenditure. The midrange feed has 2 parallel 100uF lytics. If you can fit CSA's, try it. The tweeter feed has an 8.2uF which I have targeted for a 630volt Clarity CMR.
There are various upgrade stragegies, I have 3, but most require additional real estate, which is why I am migrating to outboard crossovers. They also require the ability to tweak values, especially in the parallel shunts which are tuned to driver resonances. It would be easy to make things worse. My personal perspective is to be cautious, heed the advice from this thread, and make any changes incrementally. Swapping resistors would be a safe start. If you are a cable guy, you might consider dual inputs. And if so, and if you're my kind of crazy, you might take the woofer XO out of the cabinet and 3-4' away from the electromagnetic soup, as my 2.2 experiments have suggested.
Of course I and others here would appreciate your feedback. I gave this public response to reach more people than a PM would. But, we must beware of overwhelming those with less technical interests.
Does anybody remember the original Thiel motto? "For the Love of Music".
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@jafant Yes i like the Dag build quality, sound is phenomanal, very refined and a little warm just what we need for Thiel speakers.Also Dag is knowned for it's power delivery doubling all the way down to 2 ohms.I can see driving the Dad S250 directly from a Totaldac d1-direct + d1-driver.That would be a simple and very neat system.Cheers.
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last_lemming
One of my fave demo tracks that will reveal the 2.4's capability- Pearl Jam "Oceans". Incredible dynamics for a 90's Rock recording. The passive radiator really enhances the bottom end.
Play it LOUD!
Happy Listening!
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@last_lemming I haven't found Thiels to be particularly power hungry. I'm sure some are but some definitely aren't. I've had my 2 2s hooked up to very moderate amps and they've sounded great. |
last_lemming
2nd note- good to read that you re-considered against selling the CS 2.4 loudspeaker. Big mistake, IMO.
Happy Listening!
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last_lemming
Right On! Yes- the CS 2.4 can absolutely play well with as little as 60wpc. Your 12x13 room provided the icing on the cake.
My 1st encounter with the 2.4 was in a small room (not exact on actual dimensions?). I always go into any demo with my living room in mind and Soundscape's room was smaller indeed. In reflection, the presentation and sound was perfect. And to think, a small Creek integrated amp was provided the aural pleasure. I was and am hooked!
Happy Listening!
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stspur
I will concur w/ beetle- "S" most likely means Solens.
Great job!
Happy Listening!
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So today, just on whim, I decided to move my 2.4’s in my secondary rigs small 12 x 13 room to see how they would fare on the ARC Classic 60 amp/Herron 1a preamp. The amp only has 60 watts a channel, and I thought it would be anemic on the power hungry Thiels.
In short, I was waaay wrong. Not only did the ARC drive it, but 2.4’s sounded better than they ever did with the Parasound A21/BAT preamp combo. The bass was outstanding, but I think that had more to do with the smaller room. Its so good I’ll be moving the Thiel’s permanently in there. And to think I was thinking about selling them.
Anybody else have a similar experience? |
@stspur
The “S” are probably Solens. Those were probably pretty good for their time but the Claritys should be notably better. Pretty cool to see “Thiel” on those resistors just like Tom wrote. Still, I would upgrade those to MRAs, especially if direct feed to the driver. Also, those coils look high quality, again “Acousta-coil” like Tom has written. I would leave those although tempting to try a foil inductor if on direct feed path to midrange or tweeter. As long as you’re in there you should replace all the electrolytics. Ideally switch these to film caps but if space and budget don’t allow at least put in fresh ELs.
$0.02
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thieliste
The DAG is certainly a sonic match for Thiel Audio speakers.
Beauty and Power in a single case. You owe it to yourself to find an audition.
Happy Listening!
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Jafant if you are in NYC go hear Mimas at Johnny Rutan in NJ
and yes the Ayre is fantastic amp |
dhoff01
Excellent! I do believe that you are the first to mix/match Accuphase and Ayre (similar to mix/match Accuphase and Cary). Those are pretty exclusive Audiophile brands. Good to learn that they are a sonic match w/ our beloved Thiel speakers.
Happy Listening!
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stspur
Thank You for the XO update. There are several 3.6 owners on the Panel that can benefit from your upgrade project. Keep up the excellent DIY work!
Happy Listening!
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tomic601
Good to see you again.
Only if I can obtain a demo in Atlanta. I really enjoyed the synergy of Ayre amp and universal player. Very tough to beat.
Happy Listening!
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Just wanted to update you guys on my XO progress with my 3.6s. I removed the woofer and was able to confirm my ability to remove the XO. I originally thought it would be a more laborious process but, fortunately, all seams pretty modular and accessible thanks to the Thiel team's ingenuity. My goal is to have an end result as close to original spec as possible unless an upgraded set of parts would clearly enhance the sound without changing the overall character. To this end, I would like to select parts accordingly. So far I have Claritycaps CSAs and Mills MRA-12s on my list. I do have some hesitation, after reading Tom's historical background on Jim's resistors, to consider leaving them in place if they would stilI be in good working order. I'm also probably going to leave the coils alone. I need some advice on the remaining XO parts which I am unable to identify. Any chance I could get you guys to check out this photo (below) to identify the large yellow capacitors and what their values might be? I couldn't find any markings. Also, beetlemania, I stand corrected that the electrolytic caps are NOT Claritycap SAs as I originally posted. I thought on my first exploration, with bad lighting, that they were. After further investigation, they look similar but have a big "S" printed on them. Any of you guys have an idea what brand they are? Also, in general, which parts would still be worth keeping in place? https://photos.app.goo.gl/bUctYBhfecLYzWdi9 |
Jafant is the Aesthetix Mimas on your audition list ? |
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Pops - most of my Lexington time was on Georgetown Road, where we started Thiel Audio, around the corner from the Kentucky Horse Park, where I rode my bike nearly every decent day. Secretariat was exemplary of his Bold Ruler line in being interactive and playful. His grandson that I bred added a dash of mischief. He would do things like untie the girls' shoe laces or pick them up from their belt, and could unlatch a safety gate latch. Lovely and capable family of horses.
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Hi Tom Thiel. Thanks for your insight on the 3.6. Btw, I lived in Lexington in the early 80’s on Georgetown Road a couple of miles from the Horse Park. Nice living and beautiful country.
Lived across the street from a horse farm no surprise. I still have an 8 mm film of Secretariat running towards us while visiting Calumet Farms one day. He came right up to the fence for a nice rub. We were in shock that he was so accessible! |
jafant - they work quite well together. Ayre’s output was measured by Stereophile at 150 ohms (balanced), whereas the Accuphase has a balanced input of 40k. The Ayre was much lower than the Cary, which tested higher than the specs showed (again according to Stereophile).
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If i ever decide to get a pair of 3.7s again i'll most likely try to find a demo Dagostino Momentum S250 stereo amp to drive them.
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dhoff01
Thank You for the update. How do you like the synergy between Accuphase and Ayre?
Happy Listening!
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Hey jafant. Still running much of the same gear. Accuphase A50 for amplification, Ayre P5xe phono pre, and a VPI Aries/Ayre qb9 on the front end. Upgraded the Aries with a new fatboy tonearm and an Airtight PC7. It works for me :) |
dhoff01
Good to see you again. Yes, it has been awhile since I have seen a post by you. Impressive that you switched away from the Cary SLP-05. That particular pre-amp is one of the very best, very popular amongst Audiophiles. While I have never heard the SLP05, I can certainly understand your change to the Ayre Twenty Series- seriously good gear.
What other gear including rounds out your system currently?
Hope that you are well and preparing for Summer.
Happy Listening!
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thieliste
Musical - is the key word that defines Ayre gear. And this is not a bad thing at all. Stay safe out there.
Happy Listening!
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I second thieliste - Ayre matches quite well with Thiel. My local dealer always paired his Thiel 3.7s with an all-Ayre setup and it sounded fantastic. I too have many Ayre components in my system, including a recent change from my Cary SLP-05 to the Ayre KX5 twenty preamp. My 3.7s have never sounded better.
Been awhile since I opened this thread. Looks like I have a lot to catch up on! |
Jafant Ayre AX-5 Twenty is a great match for your 2.4SE, very musical and refined integrated.Hope you can put this system together very soon.
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thieliste
Good to see you here again. Yes, the Ayre AX-5 Twenty, still tops my list.
I will procure this integrated amp very soon. Hope that you will return to a pair of Thiel Audio loudspeakers sooner rather than later.
Happy Listening!
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Hi guys and hello to you jafant, i hope you guys are doing well it's been a while i haven't posted on this thread.@jafant any evolution on your gear search for your CS2.4SE ?Even though i sold my CS 3.7s early this year because i didn't have the funds to purchase the rest of the gear to make them sing they are still one o my all time favorire speakers and who knows if in the future i have the opportunity the build a system, the CS 3.7s will still be in my mind.Meanwhile i enjoy my great headphone rig which is very convenient when you don't have a dedicated room for speaker system.Cheers.
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jazzman7
I was thinking about you as I saw the Blue Note and Village Vanguard landmarks yesterday. Fellow Jazz Hound.
Happy Listening!
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pops
Good to see you today. Hope that you are well and safe in your locale.
Model CS6 is mighty according to pics, indeed.
Happy Listening!
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Pops - nice to see you. I picked up a pair of 3.6s last year and listened, and said wow. Then I measured it and said wow. Then I looked at the crossover and said wow. The 3.6 in 1992 followed the 1990 2.2. For the 3.6, Jim had delved into finite element analysis to make serious refinements to the driver motors to radically lower distortion - and Vifa loved the collaboration. Lots of that stuff is now in broad use.
The 3.6 was the last Thiel product in which I directly participated in the development. After that my work was almost entirely process and capability development for the coming larger products.
That tweeter was developed for the CS5 and trickled down to the 2.2 and 3.6.
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Started with CS .5 in 1996. Targeted and finally acquired 2.4s in 2011. |
Same with me Jafant - heard the 3.6's in the early 90's when they first came out and I was smitten - 25 years later still in my system,
I also own the mighty CS6 but they cannot replace the 3.6!
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ctsooner
My 1st audio encounter w/ Vandersteen dates back to 1995. On that date I auditioned the 2ci or 2ce (I never can remember which iteration came first?). Then, there was the 2Ce/Ci Signature models for further improvement. And the 3A Signature for further advancement in presentation and soundstage.
This was my strongest contender loudspeaker to assemble my next system either ss or tubed gear to compliment.
A fateful audition w/ the Thiel CS 2.4 loudspeaker would change my trajectory forever. The CS 2.4SE provided the icing on a very tasty cake.
Done.
Happy Listening!
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oblgny
I just returned from a quick visit to Manhattan.
Today's adventure was about seeing the Beacon Theater, Blue Note Jazz Club and Village Vanguard. Funny thing- there were flyers on the venue billboards dated back to March. Perhaps I can catch a show next month? The city streets were bustling with pedestrians running/walking.
Happy Listening!
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