Thx for your blog post about the EverStar MI-300 Ethernet Galvanic Isolator. If we do it for electricity makes sense to do it for ethernet too.
You are welcome, @wsrrsw - The year I moved in we had lightning strike near the Internet providers little ground box taking out several cable modems. Fortunately for all my neighbors they don’t even own an Ethernet cable and were 100% Wifi so only the Internet provider’s equipment was damaged, but it was close. You’ll find many stories of lightning surges coming through and zapping several pieces of AV equipment at once. Often though it’s not even visible, or it "only" damaged the Ethernet ports... meaning the gear was useless and had to be replaced.
While the damage is rare, and minor it is also expensive when it occurs. Especially bad for IT workers and audiophiles who like to connect as much as possible via wired network connections.
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* Correction:
For high rise time currents a short, straight wire is ideal, but if you can’t have that then avoiding sharp bends altogether is your next best alternative. That’s what I meant to say. In some photographs you can actually see evidence of a surge current jumping around a bent wire, evidence that the impedance was high enough to raise the voltage enough to jump.
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BTW, all the reading I've read about surge protection agrees with @jea48 . Perhaps the most in depth explanations happen from the blogs at ZeroSurge or Brickwall. As makers of series mode protectors (like Furman with SMP) they point out, correctly, that for shunt protection distance matters and that small amounts of resistance and / or inductance per foot can add up to significant drop in effectiveness. The impedance per foot causes a voltage rise per foot that remains at the appliance terminals.
The distance/voltage rise arguments against shunt type protection mostly go away when we think of a panel mounted device though. The panel is exactly the right place to put one. However they will perform better with lightning type surges when mounted as close to the line / master breaker as possible and with the shortest, roundest possible leads which AFAIK is what the installation documents recommend even if they don't go into as much detail.
Every severe strike is different, and there are no guarantees so at best we are playing with probabilities. Even if you do everything right with the whole house unit a point of use surge protector is still recommended.
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Well done Erik,
@oldelectricalinspector
Thank you!
installing a gfci under the counter technically violates the readily accessible rule.
In this particular under-sink installation it certainly would have!! Forget testing though, in the event of a GFCI event the inconvenience of emptying the space and getting on my hands and knees with a flashlight to get all the way into the back of the cabinet did not sound like anything I ever want to do. I'll happily walk upstairs and reset a breaker instead.
BTW, I did test the circuit with a plug-in GFCI tester before I blessed the whole thing, just to be sure. :)
Also, before I purchased this house the second inspector tested all the outlets in the kitchen and noted three violations. All have been fixed now but they certainly helped lower my purchase price for the home. :)
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This is an interesting discussion, the first appliance requirement for gfci was for dishwashers . The substantiation for the dishwasher requirement was manufactures could not meet the safety requirements for leakage current.
@oldelectricalinspector
I had my 10 year old dishwasher and new (last week) dishwasher on a combination GFCI/CAFCI breaker. No issues at all.
I just converted my disposal to plug in, requiring a GFCI breaker (don't want a GFCI outlet due to location) and again, no issues at all.
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Many of us feel power amps sound best when plugged directly into the wall outlets. But these amps tend to have good internal protection.
@hickamore
I’ve never seen such an amplifier. At best I’ve seen an MOV or two in there.
Obviously whole house surge protection would help shield other costly appliances, but how valuable for good power amps?
I think that consumers have very different risk profiles depending on your experience and your equipment. There are people in North America who have never lost equipment from an electrical surge. None of them live in the Southeast.  So, speaking personally I can’t imagine spending big dollars on electronics and not having something, anything, to reduce the chance of surge damage.
Also, from my own experience, I know by observation that my amps get fed better power more consistently by using a Furman with voltage regulation + SMP/LiFT. Whether I was living in an apartment with 130VAC or here in a detached home with 10-15V seasonal variations and power fluctuations due to the AC coming on or off, brown outs and monthly power issues I know for a fact that every day, every hour, my integrated gets fed well regulated and clean power.
It also sounded a lot better when living in a densely populated area to have Furman than not.
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New, properly wired AFCIs are quite stable regardless of load plugged into them. AFCI breakers that trip all the time probably have their neutrals crosswired.
@devinplombier
Well, my experience is limited to the 20 I have here, and I’ve never had an arc fault false trip. The only tripping I’ve had has been during testing with a GFCI tester or an accidental over current caused by yours truly leaving two switches too close together while replacing a pair of 3-way switches.
I’d really rather all these breakers were a lot cheaper, for sure, but I’ve got no complaints on the reliability issue.
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@oldelectricalinspector - Very interesting, as the only appliance I can think of in the kitchen that would have issues with the GFCI everywhere requirement is a refrigerator.
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@carlsbad2 - It wasn't just California. Buildings before the 1990's were woefully under circuited by today's standards all over the country. 60 Amp services and overloaded fuse boxes were common.
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@curiousjim Man that was one old dryer !!
🤣
I think the expansive, new GFCI requirements come into play with new constrution where the 2023 code is adopted. I just checked and my state is still on 2020.
A new plug would not force a new breaker in your case either way, but I think the adding of washer and dryer to the list of appliances that need gfci makes sense
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Per NEC 2023 all outlets in a kitchen shall be GFCI protected
@jea48 dammit, you are correct!!
This may be a code requirement I ignore ...😅
Seriously though, my previous fridge would trip the GFCI at least twice daily so I hope this means modern units are better.
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The Siemens Type 2 SPD is too far from the panel. It should be mounted close to the panel enclosure using a close nipple, or chase nipple.
I’m afraid I agree with @jea48 ’s assessment. I wasn’t going to say anything. An alternative of course is to use an in-panel version like the BoltShield, but the recommendation to mount it as close to the main breaker still applies.
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@61falcon
Do they still have exceptions e.g. single receptacle, non GFCI for sump pump or freezer to reduce possibility of ghost trip?
Refrigerators can still trip a GFCI outlet, but are not excluded. In other words the outlets need to be 6' away from a sink. If you must install a freezer near a sink the solution is to have it directly connected and avoid the outlet and plug altogether.
Things get a little weird with dishwashers now though. They require GFCI regardless of how they are wired.
Sump pumps are still required when plug/cord connected in dwelling areas AFAIK but do not need it when direct wired.
The same is true for disposals. Direct wired don't need GFCI but cord/plug connected do. The latter is most likely when your sink is in an island and you must use an air switch to turn it on/off instead of a wall switch.
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I’m in Missouri and have never heard of needing whole house anything and I can use a 29cent receptacle anywhere except for within 6’ of water.
@curiousjim In terms of outlets, that’s pretty much still true but where some kitchen appliances were previously excluded (diswhasher, range, microwave) they are now very much included in GFCI requirements. The clothes washer and dryer are also now on team GFCI required as well. The code does not require you to go retrofit all these appliances but if building new after 2023 you should.
So a big change is the 240V GFCI breakers which need to be used in the case of an electric dryer and/or range.
The only thing I noticed that was different was that the buttons on the 110 outlets were both white instead of (red and black)in the new laundry room. I also had to rebuild a bathroom ( no fun at all!) and I was required to use the same 110 plug with the white buttons.
GFCI outlets can come with pure white buttons. It’s purely a cosmetic difference though. I find pure white GFCI outlets to be prettier in the kitchen and bathroom. I also have a pure brown GFCI outlet under a counter which matches the brown panelling better. Again, no difference in terms of code or safety.
forgot to ask, why do I want a whole house surge protector when everything important is either on a power conditioner, with a magnetic surge protector or a UPS for the computers, NAS, Router etc?
I’m in kind of the same boat. Besides my expensive and difficult to fix audio/video gear I have a bunch of computer and networking gear running around the house. All of it on separate surge protectors. Furman on A/V and Tripp Lite or APC for the rest of it.
I still put in a whole house panel because none of that keeps my other 50 or so devices protected. You may not think your furnace, washing machine, fire alarms or home automation switches are important, but I do. :)
Would I need one for the sub panel?
Not required. I’d consider one if 50’ or more from the main panel mostly to help in case of an induced surge. Also good idea if you have a separate building such as a workshop or detached garage.
And what is involved in installing one or maybe two whole house surge protectors?
I like to use in-panel protectors like Siemens Bolt Shield or Square D SurgeBreaker. They have 1 neutral wire and plug right into the panel. The hard part is getting the two slots as close to the main switch as possible. In my case I had to move all the breakers on one side down 2 slots.
The more common surge protectors are separate units with wires and a 2 pole breaker just for them. My least favorite option mostly because the length of the leads can increase the clamping voltage on a fast rise time surge due to increased inductance and resistance.
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Here’s a story. Neighbor here in the lowcountry had lightning hit tree then it went to his gutters, then to internal supporting bolts in footers, then to random outlets zapping his dryer, washer, and two tv’s. Would these upgraded outlets you mentioned prevented this? Any solution other than multiple surge protectors?
@jpwarren58 - Neither the GFCI nor CAFCI breakers help with electrical surges. The first reduces fatalities from electric shocks especially around wet areas, while CAFCI reduces fires which may start in a wall. While the statistical evidence of reduced deaths and structure fires is clear no one sells them as lightning or surge devices. Protecting your appliances and home wiring from lightning and power line surges however is what a whole house surge protector should do.
Now, as far as whole house surge protectors, yes, protecting appliances from power surges is what they should do. Keep in mind that no protection is perfect, but we often look to the worst case scenarios to prove something doesn’t work. Like seat belts. Any first responder working through the 1990s will tell you the mandatory seat belt laws meant they were rescuing more accident victims and picking up fewer bodies than they used to. Traffic fatalities have dropped about 50% since states started adopting mandatory seat belt requirements, but it's also true that traffic fatalities do occur. The question I ask people is whether you know when you are going to get into a car accident or not. If you do, then sure, don't wear a seat belt until you know you are going to be in an accident. Otherwise put it on at all times.
I also happen to live in the SC lowcountry and a whole house unit was the first thing I installed here, but they do have their limitations. All whole house units have relatively high let-through voltages. I wrote about the technical differences at length here. To make a long story short, your most delicate devices may still need a good surge protector. I lost a MacBook Air I left charging overnight through a thunderstorm, forgot all about it, but the multiple PC’s and electronics I have on surge strips didn’t even notice.
I also have about 50 devices which are permanently connected which I can’t surge protect. ~ 20 automated light switches, 4 HVAC units, 7 major kitchen appliances, the hot water heater, fire alarms, etc. Also, many of these devices have become more delicate. Mechanical timers have given way to computerized circuits throughout the kitchen and laundry area.
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@erik_squires Up here in Canada, the concept of surge protectors flies under the radar.
@bigtwin Silly me, I forgot Canadians listen to audio equipment too. :)
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Hey @bigtwin - As of 2020, whole house surge protection is required by the NEC, but regional codes may say otherwise.
I really did it wrong. I spent 3 days installing a garbage disposal thinking the entire time I should have raised children to do this for me. Nice to have the family support like that!
I'm afraid that petty projects like mine don't get electrician's or plumber's attention around these parts for love or money. If they were my kids though I could apply guilt instead.
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