The Beatles

Can you spell "Troublemaker"...

Shubertmaniac you know something for the life of me I just don't get Anton Bruckner. To me his music is just longer than it needs to be, read "longwinded". But there are many that love him. I'm still trying, maybe someday. I guess if you don't like the Beatles maybe someday you will. Its the creativity and the diversity of their music and the social impact they had, but maybe you weren't around then. I suspect there is more universal appeal for them than you are acknowledging "hooks" aside, but have it your way. I still think that they were the most refreshing original group ever in the rock era and it extended well beyond their music. They were a social phenomena seldom matched in any era and will always be remembered as such.

Shubertmaniac: I could not disagree with your take on The Beatles more. Ringo and George (yes Ringo) are admired among the musicians that I know (including myself). Ringo for his rock steady beat and for what he didn't play as well, ala Segovia. Harrison for his version of old standards plus the emotional content of his playing, after all he did not make his guitar actually weep? John and Paul for the odd stormy genius of their song writing team. Their music has even been memorialized by Muzak. What more could you ask for?

Yes Dekay I agree. Who ever says the Beatles weren't good musicians I say you've got to be kidding!!, Great musicians as a cohesive whole.

Always remember Beethoven didn't have to do lyrics.To most music lovers (as opposed to Audiophiles) there is a connection to your life and the music. You know as in/ I just started going with the girl who became my wife/ our first child was borne/just got the new 64'whatever. Ok,that's the time thing;I would guess no other 20th century pop group has had more artists cover their material.This is one of those: "If you have to ask/you won't get my explaination".Why do people collect coins or old cars,etc? find your own hobby,get a life you're happy with and ask why man is so greedy,why do we always have war.I doubt any Beatles 'fans here care you ain't a Beatles fan. We have choices,so do you. Make yours and be happy!

HUH?! Does anybody really still try to ride this hobby horse?? Beethoven is Beethoven, the towering genius of the classical age, the Beatles are what they are, a great pop group. Beethoven and the Beatles co-exist happily in my music collection, along with Bach and Steely Dan, Barber and the Clash, Mozart and the Beach Boys, Schubert and Talking Heads, Monteverdi and the Who, Purcell and the Pogues, Strauss and David Bowie, Bartok and Peter Gabriel, Vaugh-Williams and XTC, Faure and Aretha, Debussy and the Duke, Corigliano and Sam & Dave, etc. etc. etc. There is so much good music of all stripes out there to enjoy...we are all damn lucky to be yacking on our computers, comfortable and safe and warm and well fed, splitting hairs over musical taste and what to play on our high end audio gear! Peace on earth good will towards our fellow audiophiles - happy holidays!

PS: Especially for those of us of a "certain age", the Beatles were magic. Wonderful songwriters with something new and marvelous always up their collective recording sleeves. Joyous music makers, hip and witty commentators, they were the makers of the soundtrack of our lives. Like all great groups, they were greater than the sum of their individual parts, though they proved to be merely human in the end. If you are immune to the magic, fine. The Beatles really did change the world, if only the world of pop music. It's not required that one like them, but for anyone paying the slightest attention to popular culture, their importance should be self evident. I'm going to get off my soapbox now. Thank you. :-) Peace.

PPS: Tube groover, I'm *way* with you on Bruckner! Although I enjoyed singing the Te Deum, my classical collection goes from Brahms and Britten to Busoni, Buttersworth, Buxtehude, Byrd, Campra, et al. To each his own.

in his later years, beethoven wouldn't likely laugh 'cuz he couldn't much hear them. bet he could feel the soundwaves sweep over him, tho, as they do over me on every playing of the white album, sgt pepper, rubber soul and the rest. bet he would have smiled, as i smile when the first bars of "an die freude" are sung.

Hi Shubertmaniac, The Beatles as musicians is not what I find so very special. It was the music that the Beatles created that I find so very special. Hi Decay, wasn't it Clapton who made the guitar weep?

The quality of the Beatles' music was a secondary factor in their initial popularity. They were funny, cute (girls), loud (boys), and they hit an exploding demographic starved for something fresh. But their early albums were half covers. The amazing thing about them, as opposed to so many other pop-rock artists, is that they didn't coast on that. Their songwriting kept getting stronger, till their best work could stand with that of Berlin, Porter, and the great Tin Pan Alley songwriting teams (which is a much fairer comparison than Beethoven). Cute hooks? McCartney was the master, but hooks are essential to pop music of all ages. George Martin's skills as a producer didn't hurt, either. I still listen to them for the same reason I listen to renditions of Rogers & Hart (my parents' nostalgia fixation). However, one correction to Dekay: That's Clapton's guitar doing the weeping.

Well, he might not laugh, but he might "roll over" in his grave at the ridiculous comparison! (hehe) Well said, Rackon!

God I am laughing so hard. It's 1965 me and boys are driving in my 1963 Plymouth Fury with a 383/dual quads/hooker headers/cheater slicks etc. Trying to score with some chicks. We are listening to WKBW in Buffalo NY the Animals It's My Life comes on; were hooting and hollering;life is good;what comes on next Paperback Writer; move on to WLS in Chicago;Get Off My Cloud is playing;life is good again; some Beatle Barf is next; change stations to Boston's WBZ the Kinks' All Day and All Night is playing; life is good again. Meet some girls at the local Mickey Ds; she asks "Don't you think the Beatles are boss". God am I good at lying through my teeth to get what I want. As the Big Booper once said.... You know what I need!!!!!!

oops. Bopper....hell I cannot even spell Schubert right my hero. Speaking of A. Bruckner,if you do not understand Schubert than you will not understand Bruckner;its that simple; Bruckner was never a disciple of Wagner although at first blush you might think so; but Anton is following Schubert's musical structures as well as Beethoven's. It is his orchestrations that are more Wagner's ie large number of of players,etc.

Hey looser boy Shubertmaniac. Some how the Animals and the Stones found themselves ahead of the Beatles. Think looser, how did the others get there audience. MICKEY D's? in 1964, go try to find a life, I know it's hard for loosers like you.

Rather than respond to the most blatently trolling post I've seen in years I'll ask: Isn't it absolutely astounding that the Beatles have moved more albums in the US in the year 2000 than any other band?

Did Clapton play the solo on The White Album, "While My Guitar Gently Weeps"? Frampton's and Stevie "Guitar" Miller's axes talked and I had thought that it was Harrison's that did the weeping.

Jademo, The London school of British imports were a much different breed from the Liverpool boys. They were going to make it in spite of the trash from the beatles. In fact the Beatles set back rock 10 years. Listen any American garage band worth their salt emulated the Animals, Rolling Stones or Yardbirds, that's why bad boys always get the chicks!! Is it not the reason for rock and roll, hey, do you know what rock and roll is slang for?????

Yes it is blatant trolling;I am the slime that lurks at the bottom; ; so what is it to you??? I still believe in what I say. The Beatles were what they were;nothing more but much less than what you think.

I think that the surviving members were knighted.

So was Elton John.

But then again, so was my wife's ex. Ralph the loser.

Dekay I believe George DID play it on the White Album and Clapton played it on "All Things Must Pass" album, George's first solo. And Shubertmaniac right, you can't get the spelling right which means you've probably unscrewed too many bottles of Boone's Farm. You might want to ease up a bit on the pedal before you crash at 100 mph in that imaginary 63 Plymouth Furies with 383 dual quads in a summer of '65 that never existed but in your head. And by the way, if you can't note certain similarities, Bruckner DID worship Wagner. But thanks anyhow for the discourse and opening the thread. And safe driving.

But then again, so was my wife's ex. Ralph the loser.

What band was Clapton playing with when he played on "All Things Must Pass? Blind Faith? The only song that I remember from All Things is "I am Jeep" which i liked, I never owned the album. Also in regard to Harrison is anyone familiar with the little joke George played on Apple Records, when he was at odds with Apple, with Darkhorse Records and George aka Harry Georgeson playing guitar on the label (Darkhorse) against his contract with Apple. He also picked two guys up off the street that when they sang together sounded like George. Apple could not prove that he wrote and played guitar on the songs, nor could they use a voice print because it was not George doing the singing.

Tubegroover, Bruckner DID worship Wagner and even dedicated a symphony to him but did he emulate him musically??? Not really; even if thought he himself did; time suggests that he did not and really followed in line more with Beethoven/Schubert; his diatonic structure really suggests a more classical/early romantic form.

shubertmaniac; so they let 3-year-olds drive in ny during the mid-60's? i remember listening to kvod back in '64, driving down dark dirty streets, trying to pick up some college girls. shubert comes on while, with windows down, we pull up to a whole suburban full of hot pi phi's. at our urging they roll their windows down while i do the same, accidently hitting the radio's volume knob, allowing my favorite strains of the trout quintet to flow loudly through my 2 1/2 speaker system. not 30 seconds go by and, as if planned, the 9 of 'em strain to get their respective heads out the windows to hurl their guts out. i drive away quickly, changing stations and hit on kcfr. bruckner's playing, still real loud, as we pass by a bunch of skinhead precursors and they look right at me giving the hitler salute and yelling "sieg heil." my head's spinning now as i ,out-of-control, slam into a hundred-year-old white oak. three months later i start to come outta my coma. i feel ok but the neurologist tells me i've lost 3/4 of my cerebrum. eight months later i can function again, well sorta, but find i suffer from a wierd manifestation of my brain loss: all i can stand to listen to now is shubert and bruckner. girls won't come near me but, hey, i don't care 'cuz i know, even with only a quarter of my brain, i can still comprehend the real meaning of rock 'n roll, even tho i'm incapable of doing it myself.

Hi, I'm new here, so don't know all the "rules." Looks like this thread was designed to foster disagreements, which it has. Some have already said this but let me put it into my own words: Beethoven was the genius of his time; the Beatles were of theirs. Hard to understand how anybody could argue these points, though it appears that some, particularly Shubertmaniac, are too prejudiced to admit them. Just my view. Don't mean to offend.

Hi I agree with Rosebud. If we can't keep it civil perhaps audiogon should delete messages that are nor to the point. If you don't like the Beatles fine, but lets keep it civil and to the point. The Beatles were in my mind the greatest their generation, and will always be remembered that way.

Hi Do you remember the english invasion I do I remember the beatles when they where introduced on the Ed Sullivan show how about you They where a young group of musicians having alot of fun trying to make it big which they did No matter what your views towards them they are one of the all time greats Alot of other greats followed them and history proves it So whats your point slamming them Thanks

Well Shubertmaniac if you hear classical form in Bruckner's music I fail to see where. Classical form is so obvious to me and is readily identified. Certainly it can be heard in the music of many of the Romantic era composers. Schuberts structural form in his Symphonic work has its foot squarely in the Classical era, and to connect Schubert with Bruckner, I see not how. The last great Romantic era composer who’s music reminds me of the Great Classical era composers is Brahms. His Symphonic work reminds one of Beethoven to a remarkable degree. What I hear in Bruckner is certainly some quite beautiful music that never seems to go anywhere or develop. To paraphrase the Kapelmeister in the film "Amadeus" "too many notes", like Charles Dickens got paid for the # of words such it seems with Bruckner's notes. That is the problem. I'm listening and unlike Beethoven, Brahms, Schuman (who was one of the great romantic composers who wished he WERE a Classical composer), and many others I get disinterested. And that is to say NOTHING about Mozart who could give lessons to all less Beethoven in combining form, structure and musical ideas into a musical whole. As you say in your opening "no cute hooks" to draw you in.

Hi Dekay in answer to your question Here is the Who's who list of musicians on "All Things Must Pass" Drums and Percussion - Ringo Starr, Jim Gordon, Alan White; Bass - Klaus Voormann, Carl Radle; Keyboard - Gary Wright, Bobby Whitlock, Billy Preston, Gary Brooker; Pedal Steel - Pete Drake; Guitar - George, Eric Clapton, Dave Mason; Tenor Sax - Bobby Keys; Trumpet - Jim Price; Rhythm Guitars & percussion - Badfinger. Producer besides George who else but the "inimitable" Phil Spector.

Damm: I've got to get a copy then. Thanks.

dekay: can't rememeber whether you prefer cd's to vinyl. (also can't beleive you've never owned a copy of george harrison's only classic- but, hey, that's ok.) anyway, thought you might like to know that a remastered 2-cd version (with "extra tracks") is set for release on 01/23/01. bet it won't beat my 1st ed., japanese lp box.

DOES IT REALLY MATTER. I don't really think that it makes 2 nickels worth of difference as to what band, group, opera or music style you listen to, or don't listen to. What DOES matter is, not everybody's taste in music is the same. A little respect for all music is in order. The musical influence from many different cultures and styles is what has got us to where we are today. JUST ENJOY THE MUSIC, whatever the type, era, or group. Only my 2 cents worth.

Right place, right time, right product, right manager, right attitude, right engineer, right customer base. And the memories will sell vast numbers of records for the next 20 years. Why is there still so much fascination over the JFK assassination? Because of the indelible memories that it involks. Some people like The Beatle's music, and some don't. ID guess I never heard anyone say that The Beatles were the best musicians in the world. Who told you that Shubertmaniac? If you were between 5 and 20 years old in 1965, then The Beatles have far more significance than just their music. They rode, and changed, the culture of youth at that time. And their vehicle for doing it was their music and the media. Nobody has ever had the top five songs on the charts at the same time like The Beatles did, and they probably never will again.

Beatles a rock n' roll band? Who says. Pop by all definitions. Like Goodman, Kenton, Ellington, Sinatra, and Gilligan. Prolific masters within their genre. But, for bloody sakes, give the boys credit for the expansion of mega-stardom into creativity. Drug induced? Likely. Time enhanced? Undoubtedly. Promulgated by the masses and their needs? Seems so. Propelled by their engineers musical acumen? For sure. All necessary ingredients in manifestatation of a time, a culture, an outpouring of radical transformation. The music was exploratory, innovative, especially to the ears thinking Pat Boone, Sinatra, and Elvis were the end-all. From the early days in Hamburg, and later the Cavern, most things written/filmed/critiqued the Beatles as taking their penchant as entertainers and musicians (again, of their ilk)to new levels. To attain such world notoriety and massive appeal, and yet diverge from the formula, with exploratory syncopations, utilization of non-conventional instrumentations is tribute to the greatness they acheieved. To compare most any composer to Beethoven, much less a contemporary pop band, is truly ludicrous. If you perceive The Stones as the ultimate rock band, as I do, it still does not diminish the creativity and the impact wrought upon virtually the entire Earth. Some have opined the Beatles influence as early stages of Russian downfall. Pervading arrested minds with potentiality. Song after song; melody, lyrically. Each selection carries a uniqueness few groups or individuals have replicated. Anyone who does not recognize their influence on the present world of "music" has not truly researched it's evolution.

They say everyone has about 15 minutes of fame in them. I must say they were wrong - you Maniac have none. Form a band and see how you do - it sounds as if in your own mind it will be a legacy in itself since you know what's on.

I am not a beatles fan, but they progressed a lot during their careers. Early albums were collections of radio friendly pop songs, future muzak material. They took big step forward during Sgt Pepper/White/Abbey Rd album sessions, doing conceptional ablums full of interrelated songs and creative use of sound and studio effects. This is where they cemented their place in history, much more creative than earlier albums. At least the beatles can play instruments, look at the crap we have today, karioke rock stars, just sing and dance, no band, ie Brittany Spears, backstreet boys et al

Speaking of classical and the Beatles, I think we all should remember the influance the Beatles had on bringing classical instruments to a new generation. After the Beatles played with the sound of strings and woodwinds the other European invaders followed, The Who, Led Zepplin, Rolling Stones, etc. and of course the San Fran. groups followed that. If any band in the past 30 years has had a greater influence, who was it and how?

Jadem6 Obviously you never heard Pat Boone sing "April Love" with "101 Strings" in the support mode. Just kidding but couldn't resist and I do agree with the way the Beatles used orchestra, Tin Pan Alley style and completely until then mixes that weren't even conceived (thanks George Martin for the help, you don't get enough recognization for the great producer you are). By the way Siddh great post and great insight very succintly stated except for the part about the Stones being the "Greatest Rock and Roll Band". I don't agree with you but that is for another thread. The Stones are the greatest longest living rock band. Although I'll always love Keith Richards for being the GREATEST GUITARIST WHO EVER LIVED TO TOUR!! He eptiomizes the Stones to a greater extent than Jagger ever will to me.

Thanks, Tubegroover. Stones, with Jimmy Miller producing avec Brian Jones, consisitently delivered authoritative, rock driven, penetrative licks. They lost me after Exile.

Cornfed: I just tried to pick up a copy of "All Things" today and was told Late February for the remaster. I have always used vinyl, but after not even having a system for 15 years, I went with digital this time. I had never played or heard a CD, on a decent system, until nine months ago. I have had quite a lot of difficulty getting the sound that I was looking for with digital, but just stumbled across the magic combination of DAC, transport and cables etc, for me, and am very happy with the results right now (especially with well engineered disks).

dekay: i have sources in the recording biz (my older son and his dj wife-whoa!). anyway, i'll check out actual release dates. i can usually get stuff a month or more ahead of announced release dates.

Thanks Tubegroover for reminding me of the great cutting edge work by Pat Boone. The intire music industry owes it's great rewards to this "master".

Cornfed: No hurry, the last time I heard "I am Jeep" was in the summer of 1972 on a Sansui quad set up in Hawaii:-)

PS: I did find some gems other than "All Things", Fleetwood Mac - Kiln House and the BBC Sessions, "The Best of Chaka Khan" volume one and Dudley Moore "Live from an Aircraft Hangar".

Some of the confusion about Harrison and Clapton's lead playing may come from the fact that Harrison played on Cream's "Badge" (through a Leslie speaker, so it has a distinct "swirling" sound) under the name of Mister Mysterioso and Clapton played lead on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps," released about the same time.

I was on vacation for two weeks without my computer;so no audiogon. I thought I would check back to see if there was anything worth responding. Cornfedboy: that was a funny, funny post;loved it. To the point: I took about 20 of my Beatles' CDs along on vacation, listened very carefully. I wanted so much to "get it". There were fun songs, sad songs, even meaningful songs. But in the end they do absolutely nothing for me except bring back fading memories from my youth. By the way, the 1963 Plymouth was not mine but my brother's friend(and it did have all that I stated and more;my car was a 1968 Dodge Charger R/T with the right bells and whistles). OK so what; we all had AM radios with tiny 3" speakers listening to music to pass the time away on those hot summer nights. So what if the Rolling Stones or the Animals got us out of the boredom more than the Beatles. Hey what songs of the Summer of '66 do you relate to? Does anybody remember any of the great garage band songs like Psychotic Reaction by the Count Five or Dirty Water by the Standells. Remember Hey Little Girl by Syndicate of Sound? Does anybody remember(or care) Mitch Rider and the Detroit Wheels? The Garage Bands of America emulated either the Rolling Stones Animals or Yardbirds. Why:easy to play, aways fun, throwaway songs, always about bravado, getting the girl, lamenting her loss, etc. laughable stuff, always a good guitar(or organ)hook, and cynical or world weary vocals(even though they were probably still in their teens/early twenties). OK, let my go out on a long thin limb again and say that the greatest teenage angst song of the 60s was "Gloria" written by Van Morrison and played by every bar band, high school rock band, and covered by the Doors and Jimi Hendrix(guitar fireworks). Besides if you wanted serious rock/popular music then try listening to Bob Dylan.

Hey Shubertmaniac that '63 Plymouth Fury wasn't named "Christine" was it? Nice post.