@larryi
I had EML meshplate 2a3s and EML solid plate tubes in my Audio Note Kageki amps (parallel SET monoblocs) and the sound was quite different--the mesh plate tubes had a more diffused sound (huge soundstage and an almost phasey sound) while the solid plates had a "denser" sound
Yep! Same impression as mine when I had both in my amplifier. I was captivated by the EML 300b mesh but truly enjoyed both tube versions. Unfortunately the mesh plate suffered premature failure in my amplifier. The operational points in my amp are too aggressive for the more delicate mesh plate.
On the other hand a piece of cake for the very robust solid plate EML XLS 300b. A genuine rugged work horse beyond all doubt. 11 years of heavy frequent usage in my SET mono blocks. In the right 300b amplifier the EML mesh plate is a very intriguing option.
Charles
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@larryi
It might well be the case that it is the difference in transformers, or other design factors, that determine the sound and that the tubes themselves have no particular sound. But, whatever the case, I do think their are rough tendencies that distinguish 300b amps from 2a3 and 45 amps--and it is not just power output
Not only do tubes have their unique intrinsic sonic signature, you can further delineate by brand/manufacturer. A Western Electric/Elrog/EML/Takasuki 300b all sound a bit different from one another I’ve heard all 4 of them in my amplifier. Then one can achieve further distinctions dependent upon choice accompanied wire/capacitor/transformer/resistors etc. Everything has an influence on the sound.
This is why One could have six different 300b amplifiers and they do not sound identical at all (Substitute any other tube of choice). For example, someone such as Thomas Mayer can (Does) offer several variations of an amplifier using the exact same tube. Each version will have its individual sonic signature. Again, exactly the same output tube.
Audio equipment /components/parts and and how humans hear and interpret them is fascinating.
Charles
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@larryi
All three can sound great and can sort of flip this generalization, depending on the specific implementation. The 300b does offer a bit more power
The way I view it as well. I have heard all three of these sound tremendously good if implemented correctly. Same with the 211 and 845. All of them are very capable tubes in the right talented hands. It just so happens that for my needs the 300b is sublime. I have high regard for all of these tubes.
Depending on the speaker in use, I could be thrilled with anyone of these tubes in an amplifier.
Charles
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@emergingsoul
So what makes 300b so special?
It is strictly a matter of perspective and sonic objectives. I believe that a talented and experienced amplifier designer/builder is capable of producing excellent sound quality with virtually any output tube.
It’s immensely subjective as to preference of individual listeners. I’ve heard excellent sound from numerous varieties of tube amplifiers.
Yet, for my taste, desires and goals the 300b is a superb choice. This assumes a serious implementation and build effort. If this criteria is met, the sonic and musical production can be genuinely great. Tone, timbre, harmonic overtone preservation, musical flow and pace can all be superbly rendered.
It has the capability to provide an exceptionally emotionally involving performance that is all inclusive and immersive. I can only attest to my direct listening experience. This is what the 300b has unfailingly done for me. A magnificent tube to utilize if handled by highly gifted hands.
Charles
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@alexberger
Interesting that you reference Coherent Audio speakers (Made in Ontario, Canada). I became aware of them probably four or five years ago. Although I have never heard them, word of mouth with regard to them is consistently excellent praise and feedback. I have mentioned them several times in threads on this forum for people interested in SET friendly speakers.
I am glad you had an opportunity to hear them directly. My gut feeling tells me they are terrific sounding speakers. High sensitivity and high/benign speaker impedance load design.
Charles
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@alexberger
I understand your sentiment. Speaker manufacturers recognize that they have to adhere to the demands and needs of current and future customers. Moderate and high power solid state amplifiers are vastly more common and popular than low power tube amplifiers.
My 300b SET is simply ideal /splendid for my sonic objectives. I do acknowledge that I occupy a very small niche of the high end audio market.
Charles
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@atmasphere
I don't think so- for teh last 65 years audiophiles have been hearing this problem despite the measurement camp touting its all 'expectation bias'; IMO/IME the measurement guys that think this don't have the engineering knowledge to understand why its happening. This in particular with solid state since its inception
This is an astute observation. It has been my contention for quite some time that those with thorough engineering and science backgrounds are open minded and do not dismiss what listeners say they hear. Of course engineers and scientists use and rely heavily upon measurements. Yet they willingly concede measurements can’t (Yet) account for all that humans detect while listening.
It seems to me that those who have a lesser level of formal technical education/training are the self declared “objectivists “ who cling so tightly to only what can be test bench measured. Thus a narrow and rigid manner with regard to audio issues. To assert that anything that can’t be proven by current measurements standards is simply expectation bias is lame and foolish.
With human beings it seems that the more you actually know, you then are more aware of what you don’t know. This realization keeps one humble and enriches further curiosity and exploration. This is the antithesis of the know it all arrogance of the staunch objectivist.
Charles
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@alexberger
Technically capacitors give wider bandwidth but transformer put the same driver tube in more linear mode with less distortions.
The question is what do you prefer?
That is an intriguing question/choice. In the context of this question, if I had to put highest priority on only one, I believe I would choose the interstage transformer. I find it technical advantages more compelling.
I suppose that another option to consider is direct coupled. No doubt, like everything else it probably has its pluses and compromises as well. Implementation reigns supreme.
Charles
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I definitely agree that NFB amplifiers need appropriate matching speakers. If this is achieved then extraordinary sound quality can be the outcome. NFB adjustment is a very reasonable and useful idea.. It would widen the range of speakers deemed suitable for the amplifier.
In my audio system the 300b SET, 101D preamplifier and 6080 tube DAC are all zero NFB and the combination sounds remarkably emotionally engaging and sonically captivating. For sure the speakers are designed from the ground up to be very compatible with zero feedback amplification.
Charles
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A typical 300B SET with zero negative feedback. Frequency response .The green line represents a simulated 8 ohm speaker.This was a Mastersound but is typical for the breed.Tube selection is unlikely to make much difference.
Technically I understand the point. The last transistor amplifier I owned was a very fine German make called Symphonic Line. To this day I haven’t any doubt that it produces superior FR graphs and probably every test bench measurement one would care to see compared with my 300b SET mono blocks.
Playing field changes to actually listening to music and the 300b amplifier went to where my Symphonic Line couldn’t follow or render. So,of course it depends on what one is seeking in their audio systems.
Charles
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A good quality lower cost 300b amplifier is a tough act. Simple circuits and fewer parts count on one hand. But, those parts have to be at least decent/reasonable quality or the SET will disappoint with its sound quality and reliability.
Charles
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I hear when you purchase a Willsenton, you get a free balloon.
LOL! Maybe so.
Your call. If you can find comparable or better for 2K USD, good for you.👍
Charles
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@sns
Thanks for posting this as it brings back fond memories. When I was using push-pull amplifiers I’d order tubes from Andy. They were very good quality and he knows his stuff. Since I have had SET I hardly have to change anything for years. I don’t believe that he handles 300b tubes (Vast majority are current production).
My newly built DAC utilizes rectifier tubes (5Y3,5V4, EZ 81etc). I will get in touch with him about these once I receive the DAC.
Charles
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@dweller
I don't follow your line of thought. Western Electric has chosen their market sector/niche to compete in. So, it is strictly up to a consumer to select their spending comfort zone. There are "multiple" 300b SET amplifiers available at a very wide range of cost. There are 2000.00 USD 300b SETs for purchase. One example that has good owner feedback satisfaction is Willsenton. There is the usedd amplifier option as well.
Charles
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I have two rectifier tubes in the power supply and I’m using Sylvania NOS 5U4GBs with black plates. For the 300B SET/PSET application, is there a better option?
IMO it is not possible to choose one and declare it the best choice. First it would depend upon which 300b amplifier. Some rectifier tubes are better fits with one amplifier compared to another.
2nd, listeners will have their individual preferences based upon hearing various tubes. Each rectifier has its own specific sonic characteristics/signature. People can make broad or general recommendations and that’s about it.
In my Coincident Frankenstein 300b mono blocks I’ve been very pleased with the Mullard GZ 37 (CV 378) for quite some time. I can report that it is a very reliable and good sounding rectifier tube for my SET amplifiers. I couldn’t necessarily extrapolate how it would be with various other 300b amplifiers.
Charles
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@dweller
That type of site would be nice but I'm unaware of any. I believe that you'd be happy with a 300b SET paired with your Klipsch Speakers. As is often reminded, good output transformers and solid quality power supply are important aspects for a good SET.
Charles
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@fthompson251
I may just get the Golden Lion as that is what they recommend. As far as the 300B sound, it is the sonic realism that you are there which is the allure.
Your VAC Renaissance 70/70 is an excellent and classic amplifier. It requires 4 pair of 300b tubes, so things get expensive in a hurry.
In your situation I would heed the recommendation of Kevin Hayes. My SET amplifier of course only need a single 300b tube per channel. So much more economical and simpler when dealing with the upper tier of 300b tubes.
I am 100% in agreement with you and @sns regarding the superb virtues of this tube. Utterly natural and realistic reach out and touch/breath of life characteristics.
I’ve been using my SET since 2009 and I’m still thrilled with its sonic performance. I’ve been using the splendid EML XLS 300b the past 7 or 8 years with zero issues or complaints.
Charles
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