Teo XLR

I bought the TEO cables from the manufacturer in Canada.

No you didn't. You bought them from Bob. And you still haven't described what you bought.

I'm done. You win.

Musicxyz, given your logic, I agree and would add that the six of you are irrelevant to me.

Realism is what I hear with the Exemplar Silver Portals. It is quite thrilling to be at the recording venue.

I not really sure who you are but I know where and who I bought the TEO cables from. I meet the owner Ken who was driving a M5 and Taras. They meet me at Taras farm house just outside of Kingston Ontario. They were very nice and they were running homemade blue speakers to match their homemade Teo cables. The cables were represented as the best model they sold but in my opinion they were not very good. Again this is just an opinion but I am pretty sure I am allowed to have an opinion.

I am done so quit making up stories. When we are testing cables we always try to go directly to manufacturer to save money.

Tbg, I agree with you my opinion is just another opinion. I am however surprised that you are allowed to mention a cable brand without being accused of either being; the owner, the distributer, the manufacturer, someone’s brother or perhaps the owner’s mother.

Just for the record Portals Cables look like an interesting design and that is the exact type of cable we like to test. Exemplar Audio certainly does have a complete line of products.

Musicxyz, my sources firmly indicate you are Bob, the former Canadian distributor (for a short time), and that you had just one pair of cables, and I know where those cables wound up and what they were.

The puppet show is over.

Bam !!!

So my suspicions were right after all.

I really don’t have time to play your game but you should stop making up stories. I drove just outside of Kingston Ontario and purchased 2 sets of interconnects off the 2 owners of the TEO cables; it is really that simple. I did purchase my Zu speakers from the Zu distributer in Canada and his name is Bob.
If you make up stories you should be ready to back your lies. All this because I don’t like TEO cables the cable that you use, seriously?

Please be advised that I am one of the owners of HiDiamond Cables and we did sell musicxyz, Dave several sets of HiDiamond cables before we had a NA distributer. Musicxyz does not work for HiDiamond cables or for our NA distribution company Worldwide Wholesales located in Canada. We do however appreciate the positive feedback from musicxyz.

Anyone wanting to know who visited the Teo Audio partner's home in the manner described above by Musicxyz and what quantity was purchased, independent of anything I have posted, can contact Teo Audio direct at the email address given on the 'about' page of their website, to independently verify what I have said.

Essentialaudio,
1. What does "liquid metal" mean when it refers to cables? I have heard this term before but I have never read a description of it? The only liquid metal I am familiar with is mercury.

2. Referring to the testing done by Musicxyz and his friends, you say "All it sounds like is an unsubstantiated assertion you keep repeating ad nauseum to add credibility to what you say." Does this mean you are calling Musicxyz a liar or are you asking him for more information about his testing?

3. The tone of your comments is rather harsh, if I may say so. What does Musicxyz's identity have to do with the content of his posts? Are his comments any less valid than those of Teo dealers such as you who have an obvious bias? If Musicxyz has a bias of some sort would he not have the perfect right to that bias? If his bias comes from testing hundreds of cables would that bias not have some basis in fact since he and one other poster who is part of his group have stated their findings on this thread?

Musicxyz,
You say "All this because I don’t like TEO cables the cable that you use, seriously?" Please note that Teo cables are not only the cables that Essential Audio uses. He has publicly stated on this thread that he is a Teo dealer. He has an obvious vested interest in making Teos cables look good and he has an obvious interest in discrediting anyone who makes Teos look bad. IMO.

Sabai,
Liquid metal refers to the patent-pending alloy of gallium, indium, and tin used for the conductor material which is in the liquid state at room temperature and well below. Its consistency is rather similar to liquid mercury, without the environmental concerns. Information is available on Galinstan, which is similar to the material used by Teo Audio. I provided this information above.

I asked Musicxyz to substantiate his claims, but he has not done so. That is not discrediting someone, although you may see it differently. Pursuing the facts, I did not call him a liar, but he has resorted to calling me one:

I really don’t have time to play your game but you should stop making up stories.

If you make up stories you should be ready to back your lies.

Please see my previous post for a separate point of reference regarding facts.

And while you are correct saying I have an interest in Teo Audio as a dealer, they are by no means the only cables I sell and like very much.

Sabai, please read the previous posts for information on the liquid metal conductor material and to see who has called whom a liar. Those who resort to name calling tend to have something to hide.

Essentialaudio,
I see you mentioned earlier "It is a proprietary patent pending alloy of gallium, indium, and tin. Do a web search for the trade name Galinstan, which is somewhat similar but not the same."

Wikipedia says "Galinstan is a family of eutectic alloys mainly consisting of gallium, indium, and tin. These alloys are liquids at room temperature, typically freezing at −19 °C (−2 °F).[1] Due to the low toxicity and low reactivity of its component metals, it finds use as a replacement for many applications that previously employed toxic liquid mercury or reactive NaK (sodium-potassium alloy)."

On the basis of this description I would have to agree with Musicxyz that rupture of a cable with this liquid amalgam of metals could pose a serious hazard to humans and pets -- not necessarily as a result of metal vapor, as would be the case with mercury, but as a result of this liquid metal being handled or ingested -- especially by children.

I am afraid that Wikipedia is downplaying the danger of ingesting these metals by referring to them as "low toxicity". They are only "low toxicity" when inside a cable or another enclosure. I would not like to see a pet or a child come into contact with or ingest this liquid metal. Doing so could prove fatal. One cannot always depend on Wikipedia for accurate information. This is not the only instance of inaccuracy on Wikipedia, alas.

Thus, with all due respect, I do not believe your statement is accurate, that this liquid metal amalgam is "without environmental concerns". This claim of safety constitutes an unsubstantiated claim. I have not been able to find any proof to substantiate it. The burden of proof lies with those making the claim. Instead, they try to put the shoe on the other foot.

I am thoroughly confused about the counter-charges with Musicxzy. It appears to me that his identity has been called into question as well as his report of testing cables. IMO your comments are a smoke screen that divert attention from the content of his remarks regarding cables. The content of his remarks seems to have validity. IMO.

You say: "All it sounds like is an unsubstantiated assertion you keep repeating ad nauseum to add credibility to what you say." When you say "All it sounds like", with all due respect, I beg to differ. It sounds like you are trying to create an issue that will enable you to dismiss the content of his remarks completely. In fact, to me, it does not appear that Musicxyz is trying to do anything to "add credibility" to his remarks. It appears to me that his remarks stand on their own merit.

It sounds to me like Musicxyz is part of a group of serious audiophiles dedicated to finding the best possible cables over a period of many years. And, indeed, another participant in his audiophile group has added his voice to this thread to corroborate Musicxyz's statements. It appears to me this renders the issue you are trying to raise about his credibility moot.

In fact, by following this line in the discussion you may be bringing your own credibility into question. Putting Musicxyz up against the wall when he has stated a simple case, corroborated by another participant in his group, is ill-advised. IMO, your aggressive approach draws attention directly to you regarding your motives for creating a "line of fire". Is it true that no stories have been made up here? Actually, it appears that stories have indeed been made up.

You state: "And while you are correct saying I have an interest in Teo Audio as a dealer, they are by no means the only cables I sell and like very much." With all due respect, referring to other cables is irrelevant here. It is a digression. The fact remains that you have a vested interest in making Teo cables look good in this thread -- which puts you in the spotlight before anyone else in this thread. IMO.

Essentialaudio,
I have been doing some research. The liquid metal amalgam called Galinstan is indeed highly toxic. I will be glad to provide the details if requested. Musicxyz is right to be concerned. IMO.

Sabai,

Get real. What do you use your cables for - calf roping!

I can't imagine any real world scenario that would cause one to worry about a cable rupturing. I don't know about you, but I gently plug my cables in and they just remain in that static state until I decide to gently move them again.

Chicken Little is now posting on the 'gon.

Fiddler,
If you read this thread carefully you will realize that I was referring to a concern voiced by Musicxyz concerning his children. Although this may seem extreme it is not beyond the realm of possibility that such an event could occur, IMO. Indeed, stranger things have indeed occurred with tragic consequences.

With all due respect, I feel you should put this matter in its very broadest context. We are talking about toxicity here. This product is, despite claims to the contrary, highly toxic.

Fiddler,
The potential problem here is that we are talking about a metal in the cable that is liquid at room temperature -- and that is also highly toxic. No other kind of cable that I am aware of poses this potential problem.

Fiddler,

That was a great read LOL.

Chocolate given to some dogs can kill them. Almost lost my Toy Fox Terrier when guests we had over allowed them to get into their chocolate.

No chocolate in my cables Please.

I should add that my Cerious Technologies cables, which had liquid in them, did leak. Fortunately, it was not toxic liquid. But from what I have seen, the Teos are very carefully made and shipped. Still, were I to have kids around, especially young ones, I would pause before getting the Teos.

Glory, do you find these cables "somewhat dark" as said in the 6Moons review? How is the holographic image?

Tbg,

Sounds like tubes in a cable. Rich/3d/tonality spot on/instruments sound real on digital playback. Quiet with a more rounded fuller sound than most cables.

It think the Moonie reviewer was spot on with his review of the Teo.

Have the Teo Spdif digital cable and Stage 3 Concepts Magnus Prime IC. The S3 silver IC gives a more focused/faster sound than the Teo IC. So far the digital has not been beat yet. I have S3 top of the line 6.3K LOL digital coming in for demo so the Teo cable has a strong contender as best in my system.

If you want to try them let me know Norm.

Will report back.

Fiddler and Glory,
You might be interested in reading Tbg's post regarding his cables leaking. I believe this is precisely the risk that Musicxyz was referring to. Also, please note that the liquid that leaked from Tbg's cable is reported as non-toxic. Please note that the liquid metal inside Teo cables is highly toxic.

Please note that I do not know Musicxzy, I do not know his true identity and I have had no contact whatsoever with him other than indirectly through this thread.

Sabai,

I would be very slow to write such things about toxic Teo cables as they are not true.

Read and study real hard before you make such claims. Maybe even contact Teo before you shoot yourself in the foot again. You sound foolish when you write such things you know not of.

Glory,
With all due respect, if you would devote some time to doing careful research on Galinstan you will then show that you are capable of focusing on the issue at hand -- without the need to personalize your posts in an inappropriate manner including the use of demeaning language.

Indium constitutes 21.5% of Galinstan. Here is what the research on indium shows.

"All indium compounds should be regarded as highly toxic. Indium compounds damage the heart, kidney, and liver, and may be teratogenic [causing birth defects]".

With all due respect, I don't believe this shows that I have either shot myself in the foot or that I look foolish. On the contrary. It shows that I am focusing strictly on the facts.

I find it worthy to note the information on the Teo site under "Material Safety Data Sheet":

"To the best of our knowledge the chemical, physical and toxicological properties of gallium-indium-tin Eutectic blends have not been thoroughly investigated and reported." This statement does not imply that this "blend" is non-toxic. It merely states that it believes that it has not been "thoroughly investigated and reported". This is a rather circumspect statement, IMO.

After this statement, there are several cautionary notes about gallium -- without any mention at all about highly toxic indium. The issue of the known toxicity of indium is simply sidestepped.

Good Morning Forum Members,



My name is Taras Kowalczyszyn, and I am a Senior Partner at TEO Audio, which among other things manufactures the Liquid Cable line of audio cables.



This thread was brought to my attention a short while ago and I was hoping to respond earlier but a few things prevented an immediate response. First, we attended the Salon Son et Image this last week, and as you can probably guess that involves a great deal of prep so I could not devote the necessary time to fully digest what was being said in this thread. Second, and probably more importantly I had more than a bit of trouble working my way thru the various twists and turns that map out the way this thread has progressed.



So to help me make sense of the thread ( and to help the readers of this post to understand the full import of my response ) I have pulled the various posts that I thought were especially relevant ( these posts not only name the players that my response refers to but also give a bit of background to the place they have had in the evolution of this thread ). Thus we have posts that have references to Musicxyz, Zu, Bob, HiDiamond, Worldwide Wholesales and TEO Audio.



Against this backgound I would like to state the following....



In all the time that TEO Audio has been in existence there has been only one instance in which someone has come to my home and bought cables. That one instance had Bob Neill visit us to sign a distribution agreement to sell TEO Audio to dealers in Canada ( it should perhaps be noted at this time that the agreement that was signed at that time was in very short order terminated by TEO Audio) During that visit Bob Neill, who is the owner of Worldwide Wholesales, bought only one (1) pair of cables. These cables were a set of our PDL series RCA terminated inter-connects, which at that point was our entry level cable ( at that point TEO Audio had three cables in our catalog, the PDL, the SPDL and the Standard...the Reference which seems to be referred to at times in this thread was still in development and was not yet completed...and certainly never heard by Bob Neill ).



It should also be noted at this present time that Bob Neill and/or Worldwide Wholesales is also the Canadian distributor of HiDiamond cables and Zu products ( please see links listed below )



http://www.zuaudio.com/#dealers.php



http://www.hidiamond.it/2/international_distributor_2115881.html



Hope this helps clear up some of the questions that have been raised in this thread. And thank you in advance for piling thru this rather long post.



Yours truly



Taras K....





02-22-12: Musicxyz
From what I now understand the same store that I purchased my Zu speakers from is now selling HD cables. I did mention to the owner several times during our conversations that I like HD cables and perhaps that is how he found out about the brand. I have spoken to him several times and he seems like a great guy, very easy to deal with. I think if you read my emails I clearly state there are lots of great cables but my cable of choice is HD. I never realized that mentioning 1 brand name would cause so much crap. Beside me and my buddies I really don't know anyone that uses HD.I also like JPS, does that mean I own that company? You guys really need to move on because I don't care what cable you use as long as your system gives you some emotional connection to the artist. If you don’t want to hear my opinion than stop asking.

03-16-12: Musicxyz
I never actually had a bad experience with the owner; I had a bad experience with the cable. I bought 2 cables that were supposed to be the exact same model and they sounded totally different. They did add weight and body in all sorts of negative ways. I prefer a cable that doesn’t add anything but instead disappears so I can listen to the artist and recording.
The first time you hear a cable that adds nothing you will know because all your recording will sound more emotional.





03-20-12: Musicxyz
I not really sure who you are but I know where and who I bought the TEO cables from. I meet the owner Ken who was driving a M5 and Taras. They meet me at Taras farm house just outside of Kingston Ontario. They were very nice and they were running homemade blue speakers to match their homemade Teo cables. The cables were represented as the best model they sold but in my opinion they were not very good. Again this is just an opinion but I am pretty sure I am allowed to have an opinion.

I am done so quit making up stories. When we are testing cables we always try to go directly to manufacturer to save money.



03-21-12: Musicxyz
I really don’t have time to play your game but you should stop making up stories. I drove just outside of Kingston Ontario and purchased 2 sets of interconnects off the 2 owners of the TEO cables; it is really that simple. I did purchase my Zu speakers from the Zu distributer in Canada and his name is Bob.
If you make up stories you should be ready to back your lies. All this because I don’t like TEO cables the cable that you use, seriously?





03-23-12: Hidiamond
Please be advised that I am one of the owners of HiDiamond Cables and we did sell musicxyz, Dave several sets of HiDiamond cables before we had a NA distributer. Musicxyz does not work for HiDiamond cables or for our NA distribution company Worldwide Wholesales located in Canada. We do however appreciate the positive feedback from musicxyz.

03-20-12: Musicxyz
I not really sure who you are but I know where and who I bought the TEO cables from. I meet the owner Ken who was driving a M5 and Taras. They meet me at Taras farm house just outside of Kingston Ontario.

Taras wrote:

In all the time that TEO Audio has been in existence there has been only one instance in which someone has come to my home and bought cables. That one instance had Bob Neill visit us to sign a distribution agreement to sell TEO Audio to dealers in Canada (it should perhaps be noted at this time that the agreement that was signed at that time was in very short order terminated by TEO Audio) During that visit Bob Neill, who is the owner of Worldwide Wholesales, bought only one (1) pair of cables. These cables were a set of our PDL series RCA terminated inter-connects, which at that point was our entry level cable (at that point TEO Audio had three cables in our catalog, the PDL, the SPDL and the Standard...the Reference which seems to be referred to at times in this thread was still in development and was not yet completed...and certainly never heard by Bob Neill).

It should also be noted at this present time that Bob Neill and/or Worldwide Wholesales is also the Canadian distributor of HiDiamond cables and Zu products (please see links listed below)

Thank you for the clarification.

Sabai,

Wow. Thanks for calling attention to TBG's post about leaky cables. I will certainly make sure not to purchase those particular cables.

Having said that, since TBG's leaky cables were not Teo cables, I am not sure what your point is other than to be a hyper-ventilating sensationalist comparable to a job-killing EPA bureaucrat.

Nice of Taras (sorry your last name is too long for me to even try to spell it out here!) to actually join this discussion. I recently tried one of your cables and found my system responded quite favorably to it. The sound was dynamic, fast and I had an overall sense that it simply sounded better than what I had been using up to now (XLO cables in case anyone starts asking!). I don't foresee anyone here chewing on the cables or trying to cut them open so the entire discussion about whether the liquid is safe for human consumption is totally irrelevant to me! I am, however, curious as to these HiDiamond cables. I have never heard of them before, I was going to try some Nordost and some Siltech cables which have always intrigued me but this brand was mentioned here by two members and by one of the company's owners which makes me simply curious. The Zu speakers are another brand which I have been considering and Musicxyz seems to have both in his system. I wonder what he uses to drive them and where he got the speakers from as I cannot find a single store that actually carries them?

Glory,
When referring to my statements regarding the toxicity of the constituents of Teo Cables you say "Read and study real hard before you make such claims."

The facts about indium, a major constituent of Teo cables, clearly show that indium is a toxic element as I noted in my earlier post in this thread.

My reference to Tbg's cables was posted to show that cables can indeed leak. This is a fact that was reported by him in an earlier post in this thread.

In my opinion there is nothing sensational at all about these facts. They are simply facts.

This message is for HiDiamond, one of the owners of HiDiamond Cables: Can I by-pass your NA guy and simply buy the cables directly from you? I would really like to have a contact name for you as I would like to speak to you in person.
I will also be contacting Taras of Teo cables in order to help me understand both of the products further.
These are not cheap cables (either way) and I think that my purchase will also depend on service from the manufacturer since both of you have been kind enough to join this discussion.

My kitchen cabinet is full of toxic substances. I guess it's a good thing I don't listen to my system in my kitchen cabinet. I would really be in danger then!

It has been stated on this thread that the constituents of Teo cables are not toxic. This is clearly untrue. The following information is available in the Internet:

"All indium compounds should be regarded as highly toxic. Indium compounds damage the heart, kidney, and liver, and may be teratogenic [causing birth defects].

Insufficient data are available on the effect of this substance on human health, therefore utmost care must be taken."

Indium vapor is also considered highly toxic and possibly carcinogenic. Teo avoids mentioning the word indium. What is known is that this substance is highly toxic. What is not known are the potential risks. If my cables contained mercury I would not allow them in the house. Granted, indium is not mercury, but I think I am making my point.

I believe it is highly unlikely that an accident would occur with these or other similarly constituted cables. But cables can leak, as has been reported in this string -- so you never know. These days many people who have toxic substances in their kitchen are making choices to replace those products with non-toxic ones. And that goes for other areas of the house, as well.

It is up to each person to assess this for themselves and to make their own decisions. I believe it is in my best interest to make informed decisions rather than uniformed decisions. I understand people who are dismissive about these kinds of matters. But having suffered the consequences of metal toxicity in the past I always try to err on the side of safety. Pathology can take decades to show up. When it does the consequences can be extremely serious.

Do agree with Ghostinthemachine that there is a sort of toxic presence that kinda hangs over this thread. And we at TEO are quite familiar with it as we have encountered this presence several times before.

In one particular instance we found that it had encountered another such presence, and as if by magic this confluence was spotted together in a moon lit market place selling audio cables.

It was all very mysterious and we are still scratching our heads trying to figure out where that spark of genius originated (though we do have are our suspicions because everytime we bring up the subject an acrid smell permeates the air...and it definitely seems highly toxic)

Sabai seems to have been on a real mission here to deal with what he sees as the potential horrors associated with the use of Galinstan. It should be noted that the alloy that TEO Audio uses is not exactly the same as Galinstan and any direct comparisons between the alloys are at this point purely conjecture on the part of Sabai. It should also be noted that Galinstan is a trademarked product of a company called Geratherm (http://www.geratherm.com/en/) which uses Galinstan as a substitute for mercury in medical grade thermometers. Now what Sabai's argument seems to strongly imply is that Geratherm has used a known highly toxic material in a way that would have a very good chance of harming people with the use of their products. His argument also implies that the testing that this product was subject to, was seriously flawed (yet please keep in mind that this testing procedure has been either vetted or replicated by numerous medical jurisdictions around the world).

But the fact that the Geratherm thermometers are used the world-wide medical community would seem be to a testament to the notion that these are considered safe products and not potentially dangerous as Sabai implies.

Find below an exerpt from the Wikipedia entry on indium (and the scientific peer reviewed papers from which this entry has been drawn are listed below the Wikipedia indium entry) and please compare it with Sabai's assertions.

Precautions and health issues:

Pure indium in metal form is considered non-toxic by most sources. In the welding and semiconductor industries, where indium exposure is relatively high, there have been no reports of any toxic side-effects. Indium compounds, like aluminum compounds, complex with hydroxyls to form insoluble salts in basic conditions, and are thus not well-absorbed from food, giving them fairly low oral toxicty. Soluble indium(III) is toxic when delivered parenterally, however, causing damage primarily to the kidney (both inner and outer parts), but additionally to heart and liver, and may be teratogenic. Other indium compounds are toxic when administered outside the gastrointestinal tract: for example, anhydrous indium trichloride (InCl3) and indium phosphide (InP) are quite toxic when delivered into the lungs (the latter is a suspected carcinogen).(54)(

54^ Tanaka, A.; Hirata, M.; Omura, M., (2002). "Pulmonary toxicity of indium-tin oxide and indium phosphide after intratracheal instillations into the lung of hamsters". Journal of the Occupational Health 44 (2): 99–102. doi:10.1539/joh.44.99.

55^ Blazka, M. E.; Dixon, D., Haskins, E., Rosenthal, G. J. (1994). "Pulmonary toxicity to intratracheally administered indium trichloride in Fischer 344 rats". Fundamental Applied Toxicology 22 (2): 231–239. doi:10.1006/faat.1994.1027.

Now the entry above does indicate that damage to the human organism can occur when exposed to indium compounds and at first blush it seems to confirm what Sabai states in one of his posts....

"All indium compounds should be regarded as highly toxic. Indium compounds damage the heart, kidney, and liver, and may be teratogenic (causing birth defects)".

But a closer look at the issue shows that the issue is not quite as cut and dry. First, be aware that only certain indium alloys are indeed toxic

and they become a problem only if they are delivered parentally (see below for the definition of that term). Second, be aware that indium (III) is the result of a reaction of induim with some very specific oxidizing agents, which are either not found in the human body or in very small amounts, if at all--because these particular oxidizing agents are toxins that can be fatal to humans by themselves. Third, and probably most germane to this discussion, TEO Audio products do not have indium (III ) in its products and nor do they contain indium trichlorate or indium phosphide.

And in case the term parenteral is not understood by all reading this post (and it is the principal way in which indium (III) can enter the human organism to pose a threat) I have included a definition of the term below.

intravenous (into a vein), e.g. many drugs, total parenteral nutrition intra-arterial (into an artery), e.g. vasodilator drugs in the treatment of vasospasm and thrombolytic drugs for treatment of embolismintraosseous infusion (into the bone marrow) is, in effect, an indirect intravenous access because the bone marrow drains directly into the venous system. This route is occasionally used for drugs and fluids in emergency medicine and pediatrics when intravenous access is difficult. intra-muscular intracerebral (into the brain parenchyma) intracerebroventricular (into cerebral ventricular system) subcutaneous (under the skin)

And this can be cross-referenced against the following statement from the Wikpedia indium entry.

Indium is not known to be used by any organism. In a similar way to aluminium salts, indium(III) ions can be toxic to the kidney when given by injection, but oral indium compounds do not have the chronic toxicity of salts of heavy metals, probably due to poor absorption in basic conditions. Radioactive indium-111 (in very small amounts on a chemical basis) is used in nuclear medicine tests, as a radiotracer to follow the movement of labeled proteins and white blood cells in the body.

And please take note of the following statement which defines the conditions required if perchance pure indium ( and not indium in an alloy ) were to somehow become the toxic indium (111).

Indium does not react with water, but it is oxidized by stronger oxidizing agents, such as halogens or oxalic acid, to give indium(III) compounds.

Please note, again, that the one substance, halogen, is not normally found in the human body and other, oxalic acid, is a toxin, that at concentrations required to produce indium(111), would in and of itself, in certain situations, be enough to kill a human host. So the ingestion of indium is not really a problem since it would not be absorbed into soft tissue or possibly be morphed to indium (111) in the body and become an issue that way.

So to summerize....the existing literature does not indicate that our alloy poses a danger to living beings. It does however cause an unsightly mess if spilled, but this mess can be easily cleaned up with simple soap and water. I apologize for the way this post meanders but there was much to cover. I also have to apologize about drawing exclusivelly from one source, Wikipedia, but I decided to go with that source since not only was it well written, but it was also well annotated with references to peer reviewed articles at important parts of the entry (unlike Sabai's, which is drawn from a scissors-and-paste site put up by a company that sells water treatment solutions and who very likely have a vested interest in painting as dark a picture of a problem as they can...and do note that their assertions are not annotated) so that by simply going to a well known and easily accessible site, forum members can acquaint themselves with the relevant periodical literature.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Now I do wish to thank Sabai for voicing his obviously heartfelt concerns. At the very least, it forced us to re-examine our position on this topic, which is never a bad thing to do. But before I go, I would like to ask Sabai a question. Would it be ok to send the parts of this thread that list your concerns about Galinstan, and the danger it poses to humanity, to Geratherm? I'm sure they would more than happy to engage you in a dialog about the issues you have brought up about their products. Because, if you are correct, you have given them a free heads-up about the legal danger they have placed their clients in ( and the real danger the patients under their care are in ) and I'm sure they would be more than happy to reward you in what they would consider an appropriate manner.

And do please respond to this request in a timely manner, because to do otherwise would hold up the ability of Geratherm to right what you believe to be a great wrong. So if I don't hear from you in very short order, I will take the initiative, and send off your concerns, because this really can't wait another moment, since lives may well be hanging in the balance.

Now, you may find their initial response a wee bit terse, you are after-all potentially destroying their core business, but I'm sure they will come around once you prove to them how right you are, so good luck with that.

Thanks all for your time.

Taras22,
Thank you for your detailed and considerate posting. I would like to respond to a number of the comments that you have made, if I may.

1. Regarding the safety of Galinstan you state:
"... please keep in mind that this testing procedure has been either vetted or replicated by numerous medical jurisdictions around the world ..."

Kindly note the following information on the Lenntech site:
"Indium compounds are encountered rarely by most people. All indium compounds should be regarded as highly toxic. Indium compounds damage the heart, kidney, and liver, and may be teratogenic.

Insufficient data are available on the effect of this substance on human health, therefore utmost care must be taken."

2. You state:
"But the fact that the Geratherm thermometers [that contains Galinstan which in turn contains indium] are used [sic] the world-wide medical community would seem be to a testament to the notion that these are considered safe products and not potentially dangerous as Sabai implies.

You have just proven my point. Mercury thermometers were used for many decades before they were universally recognized as being highly dangerous. Acceptance of product by the medical community is no guarantee of safety. On the contrary. Many toxic substances have been endorsed by the medical community throughout history.

3. You state:
"Now what Sabai's argument seems to strongly imply is that Geratherm has used a known highly toxic material in a way that would have a very good chance of harming people with the use of their products."

Actually, I have not implied this anywhere in my comments. In fact, I believe the chances of an accident happening are not very high with Teo cables -- at the moment. Nevertheless, having personally suffered from metal toxicity in the past, I think that any accident arising from a cable leak or from fumes being inhaled could be tragic and thus the safety aspect of this product must be thoroughly considered.

4. You state:
"His argument also implies that the testing that this product was subject to, was seriously flawed".

Up till now, everything I have read, including the information on the Teo site, suggests that they don't know what the actual toxic risk is for Galinstan and that not enough testing has been done on this product:

From the Material Safety Data Sheet on Galinstan on the Teo site, under Section 6: Health Hazards:

"To the best of our knowledge the chemical, physical and toxicological properties of gallium-indium-tin Eutectic blends have not been thoroughly investigated and reported."

Teo themselves admit that they don't know enough about the toxic risks of this product that they are marketing.

5. You state:
"First, be aware that only certain indium alloys are indeed toxic and they become a problem only if they are delivered parentally".

Please note that an NCBI study has shown the following:
"However, it is necessary to handle it [indium] more cautiously than before, because the pulmonary toxicity of inhaled indium has been identified."

6. You ask:
"Would it be ok to send the parts of this thread that list your concerns about Galinstan, and the danger it poses to humanity, to Geratherm?"

I don't see any problem at all with doing this. In fact, I would be very interested in reading the response from Geratherm.

7. You state:
"... lives may well be hanging in the balance ..." With all due respect, I believe this statement is a bit dramatic. I don't believe we are facing this kind of imminent danger. But, with the passage of time, if these cables were shown to leak indium liquid or vapor with prolonged use, then there would, at that time, be a real health issue in many homes.

8. Regarding your reference to a reward for my efforts, this surprises me because it never entered my mind. I am comfortably retired and I do not seek, or need, any reward for bringing to light what I consider to be a potentially serious health concern. With the emphasis on ""potentially".

9. My opinion, based on all available evidence, is that we should be cautious when considering using liquid metal products that contain indium.

Sabai, I think that you should know that mercury thermometers are readily avail in most Latin and South American countries. I should also note that I once had a Keith Monks tone arm that used four mercury baths both to give contact between the cartridge cables and to provide dampening for the arm.

I have also noted that indium is used in lead free solder. It is used in nuclear medicine. I also note, "oral indium compounds do not have the chronic toxicity of salts of heavy metals, probably due to poor absorption in basic conditions."

I think you have greatly exaggerated concerns about this metal. I also think that Teo has made a very constructed cables that without deliberate effort should keep the conductive liquid inside.

To Taras22; I am actually one of the other guys that test cables with Musicxyz/Dave and I was at his place the day he returned from Kingston Ontario, your place with 2 Teo cables. I have been testing cables with the same group of guys for over 10 years and the Teo cables did not do well in our blind test. You mentioned you were too busy to get involved in discussions but according to Essentialaudio you have been involved since 03-21-12. Sorry IMHO I believe this is called “damage control”. Just for the record I do respect anyone else that has an opinion on Teo cables and would never put that opinion down in any way. In regards to this discussion; in my personal opinion I do not believe this is the reasons that these forums were created and I no longer have interest in discussing whether Dave is actually Dave that is just wrong.

.Essentialaudio posting are below.

03-21-12: Essentialaudio
Musicxyz, my sources firmly indicate you are Bob, the former Canadian distributor (for a short time), and that you had just one pair of cables, and I know where those cables wound up and what they were.

03-23-12: Essentialaudio
Anyone wanting to know who visited the Teo Audio partner's home in the manner described above by Musicxyz and what quantity was purchased, independent of anything I have posted, can contact Teo Audio direct at the email address given on the 'about' page of their website, to independently verify what I have said.

Another newbie post. Seeeeeeeeeems mighty suspicious! :)

To Mr. Audionewfie

In case you missed this part of a post that was up-thread here it is again.

In all the time that TEO Audio has been in existence there has been only one instance in which someone has come to my home and bought cables. That one instance had Bob Neill visit us to sign a distribution agreement to sell TEO Audio to dealers in Canada ( it should perhaps be noted at this time that the agreement that was signed at that time was in very short order terminated by TEO Audio) During that visit Bob Neill, who is the owner of Worldwide Wholesales, bought only one (1) pair of cables. These cables were a set of our PDL series RCA terminated inter-connects, which at that point was our entry level cable ( at that point TEO Audio had three cables in our catalog, the PDL, the SPDL and the Standard...the Reference which seems to be referred to at times in this thread was still in development and was not yet completed...and certainly never heard by Bob Neill ).

It should also be noted at this present time that Bob Neill and/or Worldwide Wholesales is also the Canadian distributor of HiDiamond cables and Zu products ( please see links listed below )

Let's get back to the sound of the Teos, can we?

Tbg,
You state: "I think you have greatly exaggerated concerns about this metal [indium]."

With all due respect, when commenting on the toxicity of indium I have referred only to publicly available information that clearly indicates that indium is highly toxic even in the form of vapor. But I believe I am putting everything in its proper perspective when I state "I don't believe we are facing this kind of imminent danger. But, with the passage of time, if these cables were shown to leak indium liquid or vapor with prolonged use, then there would, at that time, be a real health issue in many homes."

Regarding exporting mercury to Latin America and South America, I believe you have helped prove an important point I am trying to make. It is traditional business practice that when companies in North America are forbidden by new regulations from using various products, those companies find a way to export them to countries that are unregulated.

We can see this in the export history of toxic pesticides, asbestos (96% of Canada's deadly asbestos production is now destined for overseas unregulated markets) and various mercury products. The fact that these various products are being used overseas is not an indication that there is no health danger associated with their use.

On the contrary, the dangers have been already recognized "at home" which is why they are found overseas and not "at home". Overseas marketing of toxic products is an indication that companies have been forced by regulation to develop a new marketing strategy when these products are recognized as dangerous "at home" and their use is restricted or prohibited.

You have also helped prove my point when you refer to lead-free solder. For decades it was not considered hazardous to use lead solder. But now that the health dangers of using lead are widely recognized and lead products are regulated, there are other marketing strategies that are being used by lead producers so that they can continue to sell their products. Lead solder is widely available overseas.

In the future, it may well come to pass that solder containing indium will also become regulated when the toxic danger of indium vapor is more widely recognized. It is not unusual that the process involved in recognizing industrial toxins and regulating them can take years and often decades. This is a slow process. In the interim, it does not mean that these products do not pose a danger. They do. It just means that the regulatory process takes a long time to evolve. At the root of this process is legal liability.

Ghostinmachine,
I doubt anyone would be so foolish as to take one of these cables apart. My concern is actually over possible long-term release of vapors. Since indium vapor has not been sufficiently tested but is recognized as being toxic this could become a future concern.

Please note that mercury vapor is highly toxic. A research dentist died in Canada years ago after experimenting with the manufacture of mercury amalgam fillings in his apartment in Vancouver, BC. The entire apartment building was condemned. It was quite a story.

That having been said, indium vapor is not as toxic as mercury vapor. But, on the other hand, not enough testing has been done to determine just how toxic indium vapor actually is and what, if any, health hazard long-term exposure to indium vapor might pose. There is just not enough evidence out there to allow us to make a definitive risk assessment. We do not know if the news will be good or bad.

Ghostinmachine,
Here is more information on Galinstan from publicly available information on the Internet. It shows that Galinstan can be quite volatile and unstable:

"The fact that Galinstan is an aggressive metal which damages and dissolves many other metals is another obstacle in its uses. Spillage of this material can cause short-circuits."

If there were even a small leak for whatever reason this could cause a serious electrical problem in an audio system.

Sabai, mercury vapor is hard to produce. It is, however, one of the reasons why mercury vapor rectifier tubes are no longer made. Ultimate all the mercury vapor got out through the glass.

There actually is little researcher concern about indium toxicity.

Tbg,
With all due respect, this is getting way off topic, but mercury vapor is not difficult to produce at all. Dr. Murray Vimy of the University of Calgary did the research on this.

With all due respect, it is premature to declare "There actually is little researcher concern about indium toxicity" because the facts show there is ample concern. What there is too little of at this point in time is real research. Which is why one should approach this subject with due caution. IMO.

I can understand how someone can say a cable added "weight","body", etc., to their system. Doesn't mean they are using the cable to colour the system, but perhaps the previous cable they used lacked the "weight" or body of the music. It's all very subjective!

For me, I have been on the audio merry-go-round for close to 30 years and have tried many cables, including the Stealth Sakra. I currently use Teo Liquid Standard, and do love them! I have absolutely NO reason to look elsewhere......everything I do or change in my system is revealed and the Teo are part of that formula. I have had many components and cables and have found synergy is where the magic is. It is possible a great cable, or component,etc., would not work well in someones system if the synergy is not there!

In my system, the Teo are the "best" I have had. The thing about them is they are like a great tube system, they need time to warm up, break in. The cool thing is that the system does not always sound the same! Maybe to some that's not "cool", but in fact things break in and go through changes.......even my power supply changes depending on the time of day. This is all revealed when listening to the music, and the Teo are part of the reveal chain. The system sounds amazing all the time, but every now and then, when everything is in it's sweet spot and the power company is sending out the good stuff, I just shake my head in disbelief.

I find we all share our experiences on here and just because one persons experience with a component/cable is not the same as anothers, doesn't necessarily mean anything! There is also much opportunity for confusion when trying to talk the audio language! Descriptives can easily be misunderstood if not articulated carefully.

Sabai, yes it is way off topic. How good are these cables?