I'd like to have a thread on cartridges that work with the Technics SL1200MK series tables.
I want to buy a Technics SL1210MK2 (the new black version from Musicians Friend) and need a cartridge recommendation. I am using a Musical Fidelity A308CR preamp that has MM/MC capability. My amps are Bryston 7B ST's and I have a pair of B&W Signature 800's on the way to replace my N801's. The MF Preamp is rolled off on top and the system is very listenable for long lengths of time. I'd describe it as detailed, but not too bright.
I really want to try the Technics table as it is relaible and inexpensive ($400 shipped or less for a used table if I go the ebay route). Please do not try to talk me into a different table. I had a VPI Scout and Dynavector 20x (High output) that I sold because I just wasn't using it. I'd like to keep this cheap so that I have decent TT available when and if I want to use it.
What can you recommed for a cart? I'd like to keep $160 to $200 as a max and stay lower if possible. Here is what I am considering:
Denon 103 (not the R) Denon 110 Denon 160
Audio Technica 440 MLa
Shure M97xe
I do not know what carts work well with the Technics tonearm. I know that it is light and some threads recommend a Sumiko headshell for the Denons. What do I need to know here before buying a table and cart.
"If you want a little airier treble, leave the lid up when you play a record."
Umm, no one should be running a tt with the lid up, or down. Take it off and put it in another room.
Perfectionist, you are aptly named. Technics SL12x0 models vary as to whether they have a hinged or set-on removeable dustcover. The basic SL 1200 has the hinges. The DJ oriented tables (such as the M5G) have removeable dustcovers. So I remove mine altogether, but it appears that Tigerwoodkhorns has a hinged one, and I was saying that he should at least leave it up when he's spinning a record. The closed dustcover probably accounts for his rolled-off treble.
Not trying to start anything here... I have two SL-12xx tables, main rig and garage rig. One's hinged, one isn't. If you listen to music at TV levels, it probably doesn't matter. But the louder you crank that volume, the more that lid resonates. And like Solman989 says, it then transfers that energy to the table. I've been removing my lids since I was a teen; it's just common sense audiophile brethren... ;-)
I agree with you 100% about the screw down clamp on the VPI. It is sort of a pain without very much gain. Changing records is a breeze with the Technics 1210. I find myself listening to more records during a session. I have now put my Shure V15IV on the 1210 and like the sound very much. It also looks cool with the silver and black body matching the silver and black table.
Maybe that is the bottom line. The Technics is so easy to use and so easy to change records that I don't mind going through several records at a time. The VPI took too much effort to use with the wobbly arm, wierd rubber belt and clamp.
As far as a rolled off top end, that is what I expect from vinyl, so it is not a problem. It sounds analog (like the VPI which had no dust cover)
Edo musica: I was using the standard black official Technics head shell before I switched the cart out to my VPI HW19III with a AudioQuest PT5 arm with Cardas headshell wire. I must say it looks like a good match with the integrated head shell on the PT5. One big lesson I only recently learned was that my trusty Geo Disc cartridge alignment tool should not be used with S shaped tonearms like on the Technics 1200 series.
I use the supplied Technics overhang tool with my 1210M5G which gets me into the ballpark quickly. It is surprisingly accurate. Then I use the protractor for the 1200 series tables that I downloaded and laminated from vinylengine.com for fine tuning. It seems to work well, at least for me.
I tried the overhang tool that came with the 1210M5G. IIRC it does not put the cart anywhere near the ballpark of the vinylengine protractor. The Technics tool seems to follow the Stevenson or similar alignment method with shorter overhang. I now use the Baerwald arc protractor from vinylengine to set overhang/alignment which requires the cart to be moved further out in the headshell to trace the arc.
Not so much a cartridge question, rather an SL1200 hot-rod question:
Which would be a better option for modding an SL1200 a) HiFi World's version with modded RB250 http://editions.pagesuite.co.uk//_PSEDITIONS/HiFiWorld/Hi-Fi%20World/September%202007/PDFPages/Page92.pdf http://editions.pagesuite.co.uk//_PSEDITIONS/HiFiWorld/Hi-Fi%20World/September%202007/PDFPages/Page93.pdf http://editions.pagesuite.co.uk//_PSEDITIONS/HiFiWorld/Hi-Fi%20World/September%202007/PDFPages/Page95.pdf http://editions.pagesuite.co.uk//_PSEDITIONS/HiFiWorld/Hi-Fi%20World/September%202007/PDFPages/Page97.pdf
OR b) KAB SL1210 M5G with: Fluid damper Outboard PS Threaded record clamp Cardas tonearm rewire Isonoe feet
I have KAB Technics SL-1210 MKII with Cardas wire, fluid dumper, external power supply, RCA connectors plate. I'm using 0.5 mV Grado Platinum for now, and been thinking about Shelter 501 MKII. The main reason is the compatibility with my phono stage. Has anyone ever tried Shelter on SL 1210? I have Technics tonearm only because Kevin talked me out of Rega, and I didn'r feel, he was doing it just to promote his own design. Another question: reading previous posts, it looks, that supplied cart adjustm tool is not entirely accurate for overhang. What protractor is suitable for S-shaped arms?
03-13-08: Cmk Not so much a cartridge question, rather an SL1200 hot-rod question:
Which would be a better option for modding an SL1200 a) HiFi World's version with modded RB250 OR b) KAB SL1210 M5G with: Fluid damper Outboard PS Threaded record clamp Cardas tonearm rewire Isonoe feet
Some of those options are not mutually exclusive. The HiFi World project 1200 also had the Isonoe feet and an aftermarket mat. I think it would have further benefited from the clamp and outboard PS.
I have no direct experience, but I suspect the outboard PS would have taken away some of the "clinical" sound of the resulting product. I don't have the KAB threaded clamp option, but I do use his rubber grip clamp, and it adds clarity and subtracts both spindle and surface noise.
I also suspect HiFi World's evaluation of the stock tonearm is a tad exaggerated. In my experience the fluid damper makes this a significantly better arm. Kevin's reasoning for staying with the stock arm and adding the fluid damper and rewire is that the Technics' arm's bearings are better and more precise than those of the RB250 and 300, and that a fluid-damped double gimbal design is inherently more stable than a unipivot design. As for bearing quality, Audio Origami's rebuild includes reworking the bearings and lubing them with better, more permanent stuff, and re-machining to correct azimuth alignment. Then there's the matter that the Technics arm has adjustable VTA.
Given how ecstatic the reviewer was with the results, and the fact that this project turntable was compared to a SME 10 and a Gyrodec, it sounds like the platform--inexpensive as it is--bears up to some rather extravagant modifications.
Were I to go for a full mod, I'd first optimize the platform by adding KAB's outboard PSU, threaded clamp, an Isoplat mat or similar, and Isonoe feet.
As for the arm, I suspect that a stock RB250, with dodgy azimuth, lack of VTA adjustment, plastic stub, and standard wire, would not be a clear winner over a Technics arm with Cardas rewire and fluid damper. They'd probably sound different, but I'm not sure one would sound better overall than the other.
Once you install that OL armboard, however, it makes many arms available, some of which should be clearly superior to the stock arm.
Were I to do the Origin Live armboard-based tonearm mod, instead of getting a heavily modified RB250, I'd spring for the extra $200 and move up to the Origin Live Silver arm, which includes all the RB250 mods plus better bearings. Then I'd get Pet Riggle's VTAF mod. I think at this point you would get a clearly superior arm while retaining the advantages of VTA adjustment and easier cartridge swapping--with the Riggle mod, you can simply lift the arm out of its hole and set it on its side to change cartridges.
03-13-08: Maril555 One more thing- Sumiko headshell, sold by Music Direct, is that the one recommended for Technics?
I certainly like mine. Ed Kobesky (contributes here; writes for Positive Feedback Online and his writings and recommendations contributed to the interest in the SL1200 as a $400-500 turntable among audiophiles) also recommends the Sumiko as a first tweak. Other A-goner Technics SL12x0 owners have and like them as well.
Maril555: I ran a Shelter 501 Mk2 cart on my Technics Sl1210 M5G with great results, but if I had the KAB fluid Dampener it would have been even better, because this cart is low compliance and didn't work as well on my RB300 on my Funk Vector as it worked on the Technics arm.
Having recently received my SL-1200MKII with the KAB modified Cardas rewire I can say a fee quick things given the few hours I have played it yet.
1: The level of construction of the SL-12xx series based on my model is superb. I personally like its more industrial look. I like the blackness of the dense hard rubber base, reminds me sorta like hockey pucks :-) given I live in Canada. I chose a silver aluminium coloured model and it looks great, understated I'd say.
2: I don't get the whining some say about the tonearm. Thing looks solid and well engineered. It's machined to excellent tolerances and IMO easily rivals the RB250 which I had on a previous table. There is not discernible slack in bearings and the arm swings fluidly in all axises. The detachable head shell of all S shaped arms is said to be a weak link compared with one piece straight arms. Honestly in term of absolute measurements on a test bed maybe it is but properly mounted and locked to the arm pipe that joint is more than strong enough for any circumstance and there is absolutely no slack or issue over it and abnormal resonances. I'd say. The arm is a 12grams effective mass and in line with may other after market arms. So I see no issues over this either.
3: It rotates DEAD ON!!!!! and is also silent. I see and fear no sonic issues over the drive employed or how it was made. It is quieter than numerous other motors I've heard driving other brands of tables. I hear no problems with the sound from the spindle bearing either.
4: I have my Denon DL-110 cartridge on it and WOW it has nice synergy wit the arm and turntable. It is almost like a marriage made in heaven.
5: As for sound, it's only been a few hours but lets say it is an impressive sound from the SL-1200MKII with CARDAS rewire and my DL-110. Very deep and wide sound stage, no wow and flutter or other speed error issues that I can hear and good texture overall. My first impressions reaffirm much I have read on the SL-12xx series and it is a killer sub $1000 turntable. It's arm is compatible with many medium compliance cartridges and I'd have no issue recommending the DL-110 or DL-160 for those who want a great but still affordable M.C. cartridge for this set up.
03-13-08: Les_creative_edge 2: I don't get the whining some say about the tonearm. Thing looks solid and well engineered. It's machined to excellent tolerances and IMO easily rivals the RB250 which I had on a previous table. There is not discernible slack in bearings and the arm swings fluidly in all axises. The detachable head shell of all S shaped arms is said to be a weak link compared with one piece straight arms. Honestly in term of absolute measurements on a test bed maybe it is but properly mounted and locked to the arm pipe that joint is more than strong enough for any circumstance and there is absolutely no slack or issue over it and abnormal resonances. I'd say. The arm is a 12grams effective mass and in line with may other after market arms. So I see no issues over this either.
So in overall performance, would you say the fluid-damped Technics is at least the equal of an RB250?
I don't get the Technics tonearm-trashing either. I think British pride for its thriving audio cottage industry is at play here. The only two places I've seen the SL1200 tonearm trashed so thoroughly and dogmatically in print (without ever really stating what's wrong about its performance) so dogmatically is this review and at the Origin Live website, where they're pitching their own armboard and tonearms over the stock Technics.
In my own experience, however, I've been happy with the tonearm, especially with better wire (I have the M5G), the fluid damper, and a more rigid, better headshell (e.g., Sumiko). It tracks just about anything, I can get a good cartridge match with a wide variety of cart weights and compliances by changing weights of headshells and adding or removing the auxiliary counterweight, and by adjusting the fluid level in the damping trough.
You can't use the replacement cost of the Technics arm as an indicator of how good it is vs. an entry-level Rega. Technics has had over 30 years to refine its ability to mass-produce well-made, high-precision components. After all, look what a platter spinning mechanism they produce for a mere $400 retail. The Technics arm specifies bearings machined to .5 micron and <7mg friction drag. What do you pay for an aftermarket audiophile-approved tonearm to match that?
Although it's intuitive to assume a single-cast, straight tonearm would have a better stiffness/length ratio, I've yet to see anything that shows that it's actually true vis-a-vis an S-arm with removeable headshell.
Being a hardware tech I would like to agree with much of what Les_creative_edge has to say as far as build quality and engineering. In a world of over priced, esoteric TT's, I think it is a thing of beauty. The textile feel of the controls is amazing and so easy to use, especially after a few cocktails. And on the fly VTA is crucial. Can it be improved upon with mods, yes. But I agree that changing the arm on this deck would be a crying shame. This table has a lot of history, and Technics has R&D'd the hell out of it. I also love the hockey puck base, and would like to add something fun here...
I am one of the best detail guys I know (auto/motorcycle). There is a product by Mothers called "Back-to-Black" that is just out of this world (anything "mothers" is great). I highly recommend treating the rubber base with this product. It will make the base look very, very rich. Especially next to the metalflake of the M5G. But I also did my 1210MK5 (charcoal) and it looks fantastic. I know that it would really bring out the contrast on the champaigne silver 1200MK5. One application will last indefinitely. I would not use Armor all or Sun of a Gun as they are very oily. Back-to-Black is not.
Mine has no fluid damper yet, only Cardas rewire. I will spring for the damper down the road. But having owned an RB250 and now the Technics. I see nowhere does it fall short of the RB-250. Both are very nice arms for the money. IMO I think there is no real reason to swap it out for the RB250 or RB300. Maybe higher end Regas but who knows. But hey it's anyone's money to spend. But I think it is simply ridiculous for anyone to think the Technics arm is poor construction. I agree many cottage industry arms are no better but owners of them want to think so given how much they may have spent.
I'm not saying the arm on the SL12xx series is as good as it gets. But for the price of it all it delivers in spades.
I hear you guys on the arm. Personally I kinda like VTA on the fly, so keeping the arm is probably the best. As for the arm mods, the KAB Cardas rewire is only to an RCA plate? Don't they have something that goes straight to RCAs or even XLRs?
If I were to do up a no-holds-barred Technics, I supposed it would look like:
Yes it is to a nice quality plate with Gold plated plug ins and a nice grounding post. I do not think they do a complete one piece run through but you may want to email Kevin at KAB about this.
This said I have no fear in the gold plated termination and so because it allows me to easily swap other cables if I want.
Interesting tip on the Mothers product Perfectionist. Have you tried it on your M5G yet?
Before settling on the 1210, I owned a VPI jr/PT6 and Tecnodec/modded RB250 and I think that the Technics deck sounds better than both. Granted, there were a few minor changes and tweaks here and there in my system, but the fact that the Technics sounded better to my ears at the end of it all really says a lot about its value.
Regarding the Technics arm, I agree that it is a pretty high quality arm. I was skeptical before I got a 1210 because it didn't seem to look the part of a high quality arm but I would have to say that this thing really holds its own. It is the most full-featured arm of the bunch and feels really precise. One thing I liked iss that the cueing mechanism drops faster than the RB250 or PT6. I was a little nervous at first but realized that it drops fast enough so that you can usually get the needle exactly where you want it without the anti-skating pulling it a few grooves back, but slow enough not to destroy the suspension.
Carts used for all 3 tables were the Denon DL-160 and Dynavector 10x5. Strangely enough, both carts tracked better in the Technics for some reason than the other two tables. I was using the Sumiko headshell with the Denon and stock headshell with the Dyna. I tried the Dynavector in the Sumiko and thought it sounded better in the stock headshell. I guess adding mass at the headshell and counterbalancing with the aux weight was a little too much for it, plus compliance is slightly higher than the Denon. YMMV with other carts.
The only thing I'm waiting on now is the fluid damper but Kevin says that they are in production and wont be available for a few weeks.
03-13-08: Solman989 Interesting tip on the Mothers product Perfectionist. Have you tried it on your M5G yet?
Yes. I have treated both decks (only the visable area's of course). While both look great, the M5G looks richer with the metalflake finish. Trust me, this is a no brainer; it is a great product and will make the deck look more "finished," expensive, and RICH. It cost about $5 at the autoparts store. If anyone is worried about this, try a test area out of sight first. It is the best rubber product I have found and can even be used on flat to matte finishes. I have no affilliation with Mothers...
I have been listening to the Technics again tonight. I really cannot say that the VPI did any better soundwise. If anything, the Technics has a wider image (different cartridges, but I was using a more expensive cart on the VPI) and keeps me putting more discs on.
I went from my music server and of course the difference is big. The music just has more resolution and body to it. I'm really glad that I didn't give up on vinyl and went for the SL1210. It should have been my first stop.
03-14-08: Tigerwoodkhorns: ....I went from my music server and of course the difference is big. The music just has more resolution and body to it. I'm really glad that I didn't give up on vinyl and went for the SL1210. It should have been my first stop.
I agree that vinyl is very nice B-U-T the availability of music on vinyl is not equal to CD for new music....I listen to a lot of new music. As of recently, I have both formats. my GF said..."They still make albums of new releases?" I answered, "Sort of..."
You'll notice the Audiogon analog Big Guns never get involved in these Technics discussion threads...
I wish they would, but I don't read anything into it. Likely they have not given a serious audition to the Technics.
Be careful what you wish for. This thread has 80 replies and good information is flowing. Go read some threads on high end gear. Most fall apart about half way through and just turn into an argument where each side needs to show the other how superior they are (which offers little information on the equipment).
I'm pretty sure that the Big Guns would explain that you are not hearing what you think that you are hearing, the Technics is junk because it is a "DJ table" (without any other explanation or technical info) and that you will not hear a decent table until you spend "at least $3000 or more" (and that is from a thread that I read before buying mine).
Thank you all guys for your input. Now I feel even more confident putting Shelter 501 MK II on mine. Still, I didn't get any answers regarding a "right" protractor to use with Technics arm. I understand there will be significant difference b/w overhang, using Technics supplied tool (that's what Kevin of KAB using himself), and some aftermarket protractors.
Still, I didn't get any answers regarding a "right" protractor to use with Technics arm. I understand there will be significant difference b/w overhang, using Technics supplied tool (that's what Kevin of KAB using himself), and some aftermarket protractors.
I am using the vinylengine.com Baerwald arc protractor and feel that its the easiest to use if you want to use the Baerwald alignment method. Overhang is set using the arc which is far easier and faster than going back and forth between two grids on a universal protractor. After I get everything in place, I use the Turntable Basics mirrored protractor to double-check and everything is usually lined up on the first try.
Strange, I use mine with regular 8.5 x 11 printer paper printed at 100% and it fits fine. The scale on the printed protractor measures precisely with a ruler. The toughest part of using this protractor is accurately cutting the spindle hole. I have been using the method proposed on the vacuumstate protractor with great results.
Basically, draw a 90 degree triangle around the center dot so that each side is tangent with the dot. Then use a utility knife to cut the two sides that meet the 90 degree angle, and fold the paper back at the hypotenuse. Now the hold is actually a triangle, but fits perfectly and snugly where it should be.
Hello all, I have an SL1200 MK5 w a Sumiko headshell, Ortofon 2M Red cartridge, riding on vibrapods / MDF sandwich, running off a Bellari vp129 pre.
Love the sound, no problems at all.
Has anyone compared the Ortofon 2M vs the Denon DL-110?
Also, I am thinking a tonearm and RCA interconnects re-wire would be next, using Cardas end-to-end, with the KAB turret terminal board in the middle. Has anyone done this themselves?
03-18-08: Alex333 Hello all, I have an SL1200 MK5 w a Sumiko headshell, Ortofon 2M Red cartridge ... running off a Bellari vp129 pre.
Has anyone compared the Ortofon 2M vs the Denon DL-110?
Probably not, but the output of the two cartridges is significantly different. The 2M Red measures about 7mV in the test I read, which is a great match to the low (30dB) gain of the Bellari, whereas the DL-110 puts out somewhere between its rated 1.6mV and 2.2mV, and someone here said that's not enough gain for the Denon HOMCs.
High output moving coil carts can be used with some MM preamps, but their avg. output is generally lower than MM pickups. In my rig, the Amber Model 17 preamp is a great match for the DL-160, but that's not always the case.
Resource for mounting Denon 160 on a Sumiko headshell? I have heard a couple of suggestions for the best place to find a resource for how to most accurately mount the Denon to the Sumiko. BUT, I can't seem to find them.
Any advice? Use the Technics overhang tool? Use the Denon overhang guide? Use the Denon 'leveler'? etc.
I know that I have read some of this here before. Thanks.
03-21-08: Tjnindc Resource for mounting Denon 160 on a Sumiko headshell? I have heard a couple of suggestions for the best place to find a resource for how to most accurately mount the Denon to the Sumiko. BUT, I can't seem to find them.
Any advice? Use the Technics overhang tool? Use the Denon overhang guide? Use the Denon 'leveler'? etc.
I can't point you to the other threads; haven't seen them. But I can tell you something based on my own experience.
I used the Technics overhang tool with great success with the stock Technics and a Stanton headshell, but the Sumiko has a second alignment rod on the bottom which, while compatible with universal mount tonearms, won't allow the headshell to slide onto the Technics jig.
Instead, I used the free downloadable protractor available here to good effect. I have no complaints with the sound, and inner groove tracking is exemplary.
Johnnyb53: Did your Denon 160 come with an overhang tool (mine did)? If so, did it work as well? Thanks for the downloadable protractor--it's printing now.
Regarding Mapleshade brass footers. Can someone tell me a thread size for Technics feet? Kevin (KAB) told me- M6, just wanted to confirm, he wasn't 100% sure. I'm considering another option- Starsound Technologies Audiopoints. Their design approach is different from Mapleshade, and I'm using variety of their products in my system currently. Pricing is roughly the same.
When I did my research Mapleshade worked better if you had solid footing for the turntable rack, my friend (who bought mine) put the mapleshade footer (M6 thread) on his and put that on top of a 4" thick Maple board and the results are stunning.
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