I have had an SL1210 M5G for about a year now. I've used it with a Shure M97xE with occasional switches to an Ortofon OM10, followed by an upgrade to a Denon DL-160 mounted on a Sumiko shell. Three months later I added the KAB fluid damper and everything got that much better. The Sumiko headshell is a good investment regardless. The extra weight improves the mass/compliance ratio with the Denon and most modern carts, it's more rigid and non-resonant, the lead wires and clips worth $20 alone, and it has adjustable azimuth, which helps dial in soundstage and imaging. The Denons are noticeably better than the Shure M97xE--more linear, better frequency extension at both ends, tighter bass, cleaner treble, and smoother yet more dynamic everywhere. Add the KAB fluid damper and you can "hear the room." Denon+Sumiko headshell+fluid damper has turned my Technics into a 3D sonic virtual reality machine. On top of all that, the Technics tonearm plus fluid damper will easily track a record with 1/2" warp fluctuations in the outer track. Nice to know if you're a thrift shop bottom feeder like me. Concerning the rising prices on the AT440MLa, the sub-$100 price was a sale price on a $240 cart. LP gear still offers it at $99.95 at http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATC05&Category_Code=A3. |
02-27-08: Cytocycle
Skip the Shure it's a dud on the SL1200 Hear hear! Finally someone who agrees that the Shure is dull as dishwater. For $60-80 I'd rather have a Grado Black or Green. At $100 I'd look at the AT440MLa, the Ortofon 2M Red, the Grado Blue, the Sumiko Pearl. At $140 and $180, the Denon DL-110/160 are really hard to beat. Another thing I don't like about the Shure--I've seen a frequency graph on it, and it rises to a peak output at 100 Hz and then gradually trails off in amplitude from 100 Hz on up to its HF limit. You have to keep overall capacitance low (<150pF) to have much treble at all. This corroborates my experience: The Shure is particularly sensitve to 100-150 Hz resonances, such as in-room footfalls and thumps transmitted up through the Technics' structure. In other words, the Shure magnifies one of the Technics' weak points--resonance control in the 100-150 Hz range. This also kills inner detail and overall clarity. |
02-27-08: Tigerwoodkhorns
The Denon Dl-110 and 160 with a Sumiko headshell seem to be the way to go. What about the DL 103 that is available for about $150. Is the 110 or 160 superior?
I've never had a Denon DL-103, but I get the impression that while it's capable of performance well beyond its price range, it has to be dialed in just right in terms of compliance match with the arm, tracking force, and how the output is preamplified. That the DL-103 is a low-output MC makes its interface more complicated than the high-output DL-110 and 160. Several aficionados seem to prefer using a DL-103 with a voltage-matched stepup transformer into a MM phono stage, rather than plugging into a generic MC stage. Furthermore, given the DL-103's very low compliance, I speculate that it can't really show its stuff with a Technics table without the fluid damper. My point is that it may be better to start with the DL-110/160 and learn about the mysteries of VTF, VTA, overhang, damping, and compliance-matching before tackling the additonal tuning challenges in getting the best out of the DL-103. |
02-27-08: Perfectionist
02-27-08: Johnnyb53
the Shure is dull as dishwater.
That is about the best description I've heard yet!
Thanks. I wish I could take credit for the comparison, but I co-opted it from the May/June 2007 issue of the $ensible Sound, whose cover story was the KAB-modified SL1200. The reviewer (David Arthur Rich) tried a number of cartridges on the turntable, including a Shure V15VMR and coined the "dull as dishwater" description when referring to his Shure V15VMR, especially when compared to what he considers a much better implementation of that stylus, the Audio Technica AT150MLX. The MR in the Shure model number refers to "Micro Ridge." The "ML" in the AT carts refers to "Micro Line." As near as Rich could tell, they're really different trademarked names for the same stylus shape. He liked KAB's Ortofon Concorde implementations too, but I get the sense that of the carts he tried (all MMs), he found the AT 150 MLX the most linear, most detailed, fastest, etc. Compared to the AT440MLa, he found it more linear and resonance-free, too. |
I never even bothered trying the stock headshell with the Denon. Even though my Technics headshell has a screw-in 4g weight to make it heavier, I took the advice of the sales rep at Acoustic Sounds and got the Sumiko. It's just a better headshell in every way--less resonant, more structurally rigid, much better lead wires and clips, and that totally cool azimuth adjustment. I figured the extra weight would also come in handy with the lower compliance rating of the Denon compared to the Ortofon and Shure carts I'd been using.
I consider the Sumiko the first step required in elevating the SL12x0's performance to reach its potential. |
Do you have the KAB fluid damper? What headshells are you using?
I'm using a DL-160 on Sumiko headshell with KAB fluid damper and KAB rubber record clamp (the $25 one w/o the bubble level). The clamp often does wonders at reducing surface noise and eliminating resonances that otherwise cloud inner detail. This combo works very well for me on a wide variety of music styles and varying record conditions. |
03-08-08: Tjnindc
Has anyone found good cartridge cases for their spare headshells and cartridges? If so, where did you get them. I'm about to pick up the Sumiko headshell and Denon 160. I'd like somewhere safe to store my other combo.
DJ suppliers have these--secure cases that hold 2 or 4 cartridges intact mounted in their universal headshells. |
03-07-08: Tvad
03-07-08: Drubin
I'm sure this has been discussed, but let me raise it again. Is the SL1200 KAB genuine competition for belt-drive tables of the Linn/Spacedeck/Scoutmaster/Gyrodec/etc caliber?
I will be shocked if any seasoned Linn/Spacedeck/Scoutmaster/Gyrodec owners answer yes.
How about in a shootout against a Music Hall MMF9 (pre MMF 9.1)? Here and here. He preferred (and bought) a KAB-modded Technics SL1200 with KAB/Ortofon Concorde cartridge ($1172 total) over a nearly twice-as-expensive Music Hall MMF 9 with Music Hall Maestro LOMC cartridge. That doesn't indicate that it would compete with a Gyrodec (something I'm dying to find out myself), but it does indicate that it's competitive with a belt drive rig just north of $2K. And I can tell you this: I have an SL1210 M5G w/fluid damper, spindle clamp, Sumiko headshell, DL-160, Oracle Groove Isolator sorbothane mat, and brass cones/butcher block/Vibrapod platform. It is very musically involving. If I'm in another room while spinning LPs, the sound compells me to come back and sit down in the sweet spot. I can definitely "hear the room." But most telling of all, when I go to the local analog shop and listen to a P5 or P7, it doesn't make me feel like I'm missing out on something big. The P7 did sound more relaxed--or does that mean the Technics sounded more propulsive? I'm the kind of worry wart that if I hear something significantly better, it tortures me until I can attain it, whether it's a guitar or amp, ride cymbal, or snare drum. But I'm happy with my fluid-damped SL1210. |
03-09-08: Tvad
Johnnyb53, I have never read any post on Audiogon where a Linn/Spacedeck/Scoutmaster/Gyrodec...or MMF9 owner switched to a KAB Technics, and I doubt we'll see more than one or two, if that.
No argument here. The TNT comparo was the only thing I could think of. Marc Phillips, who writes for Tone PUblications and a couple of other online review mags, uses a Michell Orbe SE as his main rig. Tone Pubs bought him an Technics SL1200 to review to see if the hoopla is well-earned. Unfortunately, the review only looked at the bone stock Technics with a few cartridges. The original intent was to first compare the SL1200 to the similarly-priced Rega P2, and then try the Technics with a wide variety of aftermarket mods, but none of that has materialized and Phillips is evidently swamped reviewing other gear and music that claims a higher priority for their readership. |
03-10-08: Tigerwoodkhorns
Because the table starts and stops in an instant, you can change records quickly. Just give it a quick wipe and, put the arm down and close the lid. I really hated not having a dust cover on the VPI.
Well done! If you want a little airier treble, leave the lid up when you play a record. Do you have the KAB fluid damper? |
For $400, the SL1210 Mk2 available at Musicians Friend is a no-brainer. However, if you can get a good price on a 1210 M5G (I got mine for $500), it's worth it for the upgraded tonearm wire. The rest of the upgrades on the M5G have no audiophile applications.
OTOH, a KAB tonearm rewire is $169.00, which would be better wire yet (e.g., Cardas) than the improved wire on the M5G. |
03-10-08: Perfectionist
"If you want a little airier treble, leave the lid up when you play a record."
Umm, no one should be running a tt with the lid up, or down.
Take it off and put it in another room. Perfectionist, you are aptly named. Technics SL12x0 models vary as to whether they have a hinged or set-on removeable dustcover. The basic SL 1200 has the hinges. The DJ oriented tables (such as the M5G) have removeable dustcovers. So I remove mine altogether, but it appears that Tigerwoodkhorns has a hinged one, and I was saying that he should at least leave it up when he's spinning a record. The closed dustcover probably accounts for his rolled-off treble. |
03-13-08: Cmk
Not so much a cartridge question, rather an SL1200 hot-rod question:
Which would be a better option for modding an SL1200
a) HiFi World's version with modded RB250
OR
b) KAB SL1210 M5G with:
Fluid damper
Outboard PS
Threaded record clamp
Cardas tonearm rewire
Isonoe feet
Some of those options are not mutually exclusive. The HiFi World project 1200 also had the Isonoe feet and an aftermarket mat. I think it would have further benefited from the clamp and outboard PS. I have no direct experience, but I suspect the outboard PS would have taken away some of the "clinical" sound of the resulting product. I don't have the KAB threaded clamp option, but I do use his rubber grip clamp, and it adds clarity and subtracts both spindle and surface noise. I also suspect HiFi World's evaluation of the stock tonearm is a tad exaggerated. In my experience the fluid damper makes this a significantly better arm. Kevin's reasoning for staying with the stock arm and adding the fluid damper and rewire is that the Technics' arm's bearings are better and more precise than those of the RB250 and 300, and that a fluid-damped double gimbal design is inherently more stable than a unipivot design. As for bearing quality, Audio Origami's rebuild includes reworking the bearings and lubing them with better, more permanent stuff, and re-machining to correct azimuth alignment. Then there's the matter that the Technics arm has adjustable VTA. Given how ecstatic the reviewer was with the results, and the fact that this project turntable was compared to a SME 10 and a Gyrodec, it sounds like the platform--inexpensive as it is--bears up to some rather extravagant modifications. Were I to go for a full mod, I'd first optimize the platform by adding KAB's outboard PSU, threaded clamp, an Isoplat mat or similar, and Isonoe feet. As for the arm, I suspect that a stock RB250, with dodgy azimuth, lack of VTA adjustment, plastic stub, and standard wire, would not be a clear winner over a Technics arm with Cardas rewire and fluid damper. They'd probably sound different, but I'm not sure one would sound better overall than the other. Once you install that OL armboard, however, it makes many arms available, some of which should be clearly superior to the stock arm. Were I to do the Origin Live armboard-based tonearm mod, instead of getting a heavily modified RB250, I'd spring for the extra $200 and move up to the Origin Live Silver arm, which includes all the RB250 mods plus better bearings. Then I'd get Pet Riggle's VTAF mod. I think at this point you would get a clearly superior arm while retaining the advantages of VTA adjustment and easier cartridge swapping--with the Riggle mod, you can simply lift the arm out of its hole and set it on its side to change cartridges. |
03-13-08: Maril555
One more thing- Sumiko headshell, sold by Music Direct, is that the one recommended for Technics?
I certainly like mine. Ed Kobesky (contributes here; writes for Positive Feedback Online and his writings and recommendations contributed to the interest in the SL1200 as a $400-500 turntable among audiophiles) also recommends the Sumiko as a first tweak. Other A-goner Technics SL12x0 owners have and like them as well. |
03-13-08: Les_creative_edge
2: I don't get the whining some say about the tonearm. Thing looks solid and well engineered. It's machined to excellent tolerances and IMO easily rivals the RB250 which I had on a previous table. There is not discernible slack in bearings and the arm swings fluidly in all axises. The detachable head shell of all S shaped arms is said to be a weak link compared with one piece straight arms. Honestly in term of absolute measurements on a test bed maybe it is but properly mounted and locked to the arm pipe that joint is more than strong enough for any circumstance and there is absolutely no slack or issue over it and abnormal resonances. I'd say. The arm is a 12grams effective mass and in line with may other after market arms. So I see no issues over this either. So in overall performance, would you say the fluid-damped Technics is at least the equal of an RB250? I don't get the Technics tonearm-trashing either. I think British pride for its thriving audio cottage industry is at play here. The only two places I've seen the SL1200 tonearm trashed so thoroughly and dogmatically in print (without ever really stating what's wrong about its performance) so dogmatically is this review and at the Origin Live website, where they're pitching their own armboard and tonearms over the stock Technics. In my own experience, however, I've been happy with the tonearm, especially with better wire (I have the M5G), the fluid damper, and a more rigid, better headshell (e.g., Sumiko). It tracks just about anything, I can get a good cartridge match with a wide variety of cart weights and compliances by changing weights of headshells and adding or removing the auxiliary counterweight, and by adjusting the fluid level in the damping trough. You can't use the replacement cost of the Technics arm as an indicator of how good it is vs. an entry-level Rega. Technics has had over 30 years to refine its ability to mass-produce well-made, high-precision components. After all, look what a platter spinning mechanism they produce for a mere $400 retail. The Technics arm specifies bearings machined to .5 micron and <7mg friction drag. What do you pay for an aftermarket audiophile-approved tonearm to match that? Although it's intuitive to assume a single-cast, straight tonearm would have a better stiffness/length ratio, I've yet to see anything that shows that it's actually true vis-a-vis an S-arm with removeable headshell. |
03-18-08: Alex333
Hello all,
I have an SL1200 MK5 w a Sumiko headshell, Ortofon 2M Red cartridge ... running off a Bellari vp129 pre.
Has anyone compared the Ortofon 2M vs the Denon DL-110?
Probably not, but the output of the two cartridges is significantly different. The 2M Red measures about 7mV in the test I read, which is a great match to the low (30dB) gain of the Bellari, whereas the DL-110 puts out somewhere between its rated 1.6mV and 2.2mV, and someone here said that's not enough gain for the Denon HOMCs. High output moving coil carts can be used with some MM preamps, but their avg. output is generally lower than MM pickups. In my rig, the Amber Model 17 preamp is a great match for the DL-160, but that's not always the case. |
03-21-08: Tjnindc
Resource for mounting Denon 160 on a Sumiko headshell? I have heard a couple of suggestions for the best place to find a resource for how to most accurately mount the Denon to the Sumiko. BUT, I can't seem to find them.
Any advice? Use the Technics overhang tool? Use the Denon overhang guide? Use the Denon 'leveler'? etc.
I can't point you to the other threads; haven't seen them. But I can tell you something based on my own experience. I used the Technics overhang tool with great success with the stock Technics and a Stanton headshell, but the Sumiko has a second alignment rod on the bottom which, while compatible with universal mount tonearms, won't allow the headshell to slide onto the Technics jig. Instead, I used the free downloadable protractor available here to good effect. I have no complaints with the sound, and inner groove tracking is exemplary. |
For a higher performance high output MC, how about a Sumiko Blackbird or at least a BPS EVO III? The Blackbird is a S'phile Class B recommended component.
As for the Denon 103, you could get a Zu103 and matched K&K step-up transformer for less than the Shelter 501 (about $775 total). |
04-08-08: Jsmoller
Can anyone quantify the improvement with the KAB fluid damper? Will my 54 year old ears be able to hear the difference on my SL-1210M5G with a DL-160. Right now the combo sounds great to me w/o the KAB mod. I have a thick Technics rubber mat, record weight and the standard M5G headshell. I am a 54-year-old with an SL-1210M5G outfitted with Denon DL-160 cartridge, Sumiko headshell, and KAB fluid damper. I definitely hear a difference and definitely consider it money well spent. I added the fluid damper a couple months after I'd installed the DL-160. When I ordered the fluid damper from KAB, I also got a tube of bearing oil. While installing the fluid damper I also added several drops of oil to the turntable motor bearing. I think this lowered the noise floor and also made the platter spin more smoothly, requiring less speed correction from the DD quartz lock circuitry (my guess). Anyway, it's important to not overfill the damping trough with the silicone fluid. When I first installed it, I filled the trough about 2/3 full. KAB recommends 1/2. The result at 2/3 full was that the sound was smooth but not very involving. Noise floor was way down, but initial transients were rounded off and blunted while there was improved resolution of room ambience and better note decay at the other end. I lowered the fluid level to 1/3 and that's where I really liked the results. Transients are quick and sharp as ever. I hear the room better, and there is much more natural decay of both instrument resonance and room ambience. There are two other audible benefits at least: Stylus movement is better controlled, tracking is better, there is much less overshoot and "groove clatter." This is most noticeable on percussion. Bells, cymbals, brushes, tambourine--all those percussion instruments that make complex overtones in the treble punctuated by strong transients--their sounds are now much better sorted out, more musical. The trough imparts a sense of refinement to the tracking. I think Kevin's right. With the right amount of fluid in the trough, the SL12x0 tonearm sounds refined and in control. You'd never guess it to be the built-in tonearm on a mass-produced turntable. You hear more music, less noise, less overshoot, less clatter. The second benefit is how the fluid damper enables the arm to track *anything.* By that I mean I have some bargain-bin LPs that are hideously warped--the outer track undulates by 1/2" or more. These records launch most arm setups right into the air, only to land who-knows-where, sustaining who-knows-what damage. Not so with the fluid damper. The stylus simply traces the groove, period. The bigger ramification here is that if a 1/2" warp can't throw the stylus out of the groove, the warp and arm/cart compliance resonances are also well-damped by several dB. This imparts more clarity and extension to bass and more inner detail and clarity overall, without sounding etched or harsh, as the damping also minimizes groove clatter and overshoot. I still recommend putting the DL-160 on a Sumiko headshell for its additional rigidity, better wire leads and clips, superior coupler to the tonearm, and azimuth adjustment capability. Also, how much benefit you hear from the fluid damper may depend some on what all else you've done to control vibration. I have replaced the stock feet with threaded brass cones sitting on a butcher block cutting board which itself is supported by Vibrapods. I also use an Oracle sorbothane Groove Isolator mat and KAB's rubber record grip clamp. I also noticed a drop in noise floor by putting the stock Technics felt slipmat under the Groove Isolator. Seems that a heavy mat over the felt mat damps the platter ring more effectively. The less of this that you've done, the harder the fluid damper has to work. You may hear a more dramatic improvement that way, but the cumulative results of a multilateral approach to vibration control is better. |
The Denon DL-160 mounted on a Sumiko or LpGear Zupreme headshell is very musical, fast, linear, and balanced.
What Tvad said is true, though. Mounting most any cartridge on a removeable headshell is pretty equal from cartridge to cartridge, but if you get a KAB all-in-one solution such as the KAB-Ortofon Pro-S 30 for $239, all you do is plug the entire unit into the tonearm. Overhang and alignment are automatically already in adjustment. This method also eliminates an additional set of wire leads and clips and another detachable joint between the stylus and the tonearm. |
05-02-14: Dave_72
... It's really a good cartridge, and at the street price, (i buy via turntableneedles.com for new styli at $189.00 a pop.) it's a no brainer. It does take a while before the stylus to wear down. According to my local turntable/cart dealer, the MicroLine stylus is particularly resistant to wear, good for 3-5 times the wear of other shapes. I got 5-1/2 years out of my first AT150MLX stylus before needing to replace it. And even then, it didn't sound damaged; it was just getting dull-sounding and not responding to cleaning. If you figure in the cost per playing hour, the AT150MLX is an even better bargain because you might get 5 years out of one stylus instead of 1-3. |
If you go to the LPgear listing for the AT150MLX here, there is a link to a pdf excerpt of a Sensible Sound review, I have the complete issue of that magazine, where the reviewer compares the AT440MLa, AT150MLX, KAB-Concorde ProS 40, and another hybrid or two from KAB and Stanton on a KAB-modified SL1200 with fluid damper and other mods. This excerpt only has what he said about the AT150MLX, but it was clearly his favorite, and he particularly mentioned that it was more linear than the AT440MLa. He felt that the 440's plastic body may insert a bit of upper midrange glare vs. the 150. I must mention that he was reviewing this rig for the purpose of archiving LPs to CD, so overall he might have liked the KAB-Concorde ProS-40 or 30 equally well overall, but gave the nod to the AT150MLX because its MicroLine stylus does a better job of sounding fresher when playing used and worn vinyl. |
08-12-08: Tjnindc
Does anyone know if you can retip a dl 160? My twin two years olds got to it one day before I pulled the cartridge off... Maybe it's time to upgrade to an Audio Technics AT150MLX. It's about $70 more than a DL-160, has higher output, is better in every way, is a great match for the Technics arm (especially with a Sumiko or LP Gear headshell), and has a replaceable stylus that costs the same as a DL-160. The AT150MLX has a retail price of $499 and sounds like every penny of it, but for some reason, you can get it from J&R Music World with free shipping for $249, or from lpgear and other vendors for $259. It's a stone cold bargain. You might also want to consider an Ortofon 2M Blue. I guess a new part of your shutdown routine will be snapping the stylus protector into place, removing the headshell with cartridge, and placing it far away from 2-year-old fingers. |
04-27-14: Dave_72
Or go one step further with the AT150MLX. It takes the qualities of the AT440mla and kicks it up a notch. It should as it's more expensive. One of the best MM carts on the market, imo. I have a Technics SL1210 M5G. I started with a Shure M97xE, moved quickly to a Denon DL-160, but a year later (about the time this thread stated 6 years ago) moved up to the AT150MLX. I've been using it ever since. About a year ago the stylus was wearing down. I considered some other cartridges, but for $225 I just replaced the stylus and it's been chugging along ever since. It *is* a good match for the Technics DD's. You can improve this match with an LPGear ZuPreme headshell and by wrapping the tonearm in Teflon pipe thread tape. The tape quells the undamped armtube's upper midrange resonance. Once I did the wrap, the AT150MLX really started singing and became more adept at all styles of music. |
